White Warlock

hehe. And delta, funny stuff.

Agree with WolverineGuy. Maintaining eye contact (not staring) is critical to building your self-esteem and gaining a little chutzpah when you speak. As to the part about saying, "never mind"... don't do that, ever. If they cannot hear you, raise your voice. If they cannot understand you, enunciate. If they ask you a hundred times, repeat yourself a hundred times. But never ever say, "never mind" or "oh doesn't matter." Besides being extremely annoying, it is also rude and is often interpreted as a dismissive statement of you no longer having interest in obtaining their input. "Oh, never mind. "I don't need your services anymore. "Be off with you. "Go away I said. "What? You're not gone yet? "Pfft..."

Addendum: I did not earlier catch that comment about the 47 year old 'student' threatening your life. This is wholly unacceptable and should immediately be reported to the instructor and, if necessary, the police. Such behavior definitely does not belong in the training hall and, if he did indeed state he wanted to kill you, he should be expelled or, at the very least, be directed to apologize to you and placed under probationary status. Possibly even demoted (assuming he has any rank at all, which you did not indicate). As to my earlier recommends, I still hold to them. Regardless of what is going on with the 47 year old, it does look like you have a few things you need to work out with the instructor, and with yourself.

Silly arguments and ego bouncing going on here. When in doubt, look at things with a reasoned mind. In this case, wing chun techniques consider far more hand, wrist, and forearm use. Being forced to wear bulky boxing gloves takes away many of their more common control and entry techniques. And, not being able to use thier elbows is a significant limiter. You really must consider the rules of a tournament, for they 'do' favor one system over another. K-1 competitions were created to give 'strikers' a reasonable chance in a competition, and it was created after grappling systems were showing irrefutable dominance in the UFCs. In a way, it was born due to the need for 'saving face' (my opinion, mind you). Grapplers wouldn't stand a chance in a K-1 competition, and yet... when allowed to perform to their strengths, as was the case in the early UFCs, grapplers dominated. So, please, don't try to argue that rules don't matter, or that they don't cater to a set fighting style. They do... all rules do. All rules limit one system or another, some moreso than others. Agreed. If the wing chun practitioner believes he will be far too limited by the rules set forth in the competition, then he shouldn't compete in it. Hell, that's why i stopped competing. The majority of rules exist to limit injuries, but many rules are included-in to target the competition's focus. Whether it be a kick count, double point rule, or no-pull rule, 'additional' rules set the filter of who enters and what is presented in the ring. If someone wishes to enter, despite the filter, it is their choice... foolish or otherwise.

My name used to be my handle, but in 1991 I switched to holding the handle of Guru (a programmer and fledgling modem bbs designer named Jason nicknamed me that, so i adopted it), but soon found way too many people running around on the internet with that handle. I adopted the present handle of White Warlock in 1997. During the ol' modem BBS days, in which i used to run a modem BBS service that hosted discussion board roleplaying games, a character i roleplayed in the BBS was nicknamed White Warlock, after he was subjected to some wild magic that caused his complexion to lighten and all his hair to whiten. Simple enough...

This is an unhealthy training situation. I seriously recommend you bring it up to the instructor (or head instructor, if the problem resides with another instructor). But, keep an open mind. Although not inclined to jump to conclusions here, aefibird may be tossing out a bit of truth, in that you may be projecting your insecurities onto the mat and therein turning a very serious study into an improv at a comedy shop. The instructor is there not merely to teach you the physical skills, but also to help guide your growth as a person. Bring up your concerns to him and ask for advice. Ask for insight into what it is that makes you an outcast and what you can do to improve. But, definitely, request some mediation to resolve whatever issues may be festering between you and the 47 year old practitioner who feels the need to speak for his daughter 'even' in the dojo. If, once you've tried all this, you still don't wish to continue training there, it may be necessary for you to train somewhere else. But... be very very aware... no matter where you go, there you are. If the problems reside in you, relocating won't resolve what you are presently facing.

Well, i came waltzing in posting left and right, tossing out criticism and handing out personal insight, yet failed utterly to introduce myself to this long established community. I was surprised, however, to find a few people that recognized me from other forums. A little history: I've been studying forever, and will continue to do so. Having experienced several years of judo, boxing, gymnastics, and togakure-ryu ninjutsu as a youth, i didn't quite hit full swing until i entered wrestling in high school (1979). Our wrestling coach was incredible and awakened me to the magic of body mechanics, conditioning and having a winning mindset. From there, after recovering from injuries, i dove enthusiastically into ju-jutsu and san soo (tsoi li ho fut hung) and began in fevered pitch into research (one of my life strongpoints). Over the years i've entered into a multitude of systems, including Brazilian ju-jutsu, kalaripayit, wing chun, aikido, aikijutsu, ju-jutsu (stand-up), thai-boxing, shorin-ryu karate, and kickboxing. I like to consider san soo and wrestling as my foundation systems. When i first entered san soo, there were no belts and... of course, there are no belts in wrestling. As such, i was brought up with the idea that belts were devised as a means to 'pacify' Americans and Europeans, with their well-established need for credentials and progress indicators. Therefore, holding to this belief, i have studied for over 25 years without obtaining a single belt rank or memorizing technique names presented with foriegn words (i.e., I call a one-arm shoulder throw, a one-arm shoulder throw... not an ippon seoinage). I should feel proud for sticking to my guns on this, but unfortunately... it has backfired and in some cases i've been introduced into new schools as, "a student of everything, a master of nothing." Such introductions are insulting and touches upon the core of my dissatisfaction with the established norm, wherein certificates photocopied at a Kinko's print shop, certifying someone achieved a black belt in two years, holds more weight than 25+ years of experience and knowledge. In fact, it reminds me of all this bogus A+ and MCSE certification, handed out after a 4-month crash course, that holds more credibility than 15 years of employment as a computer technician. Ah well, nice to share thoughts with fellow practitioners.

Shorinryu Sensei. Good one. Returning to a little seriousness, let me rattle the cage a bit. While every 'existing' system has something to offer, some more than others, some being defined as complete, while others esoteric, and still others eclectic, each also holds to a foundation in understanding or application. This foundation may or may not conducive to your philosophies. Granted, there are thousands of different systems out there, some of them being very unique, so sometimes the argument comes along that there really isn't a need to create a 'new' system. But I would disagree. Proficiency in an existing system, in my opinion, is not a necessity. In fact, it can be a setback, in that you may base your 'new' system on a pre-existing system, adding a few tricks here and there from the international grab bag. But it is not any more a new system as it is merely a 'modified' system. A system catered to your likes and/or dislikes. If someone can devise a completely new approach to martial arts, regardless of whether they have 'mastered' any other system, the true test is whether this new approach is effective outside of the lab. On the other hand, attempting to create something from nothing is exceedingly difficult. Without understanding what has been created and tested in the past, one would very likely waste a tremendous amount of time and energy 'relearning' already well-known misconceptions. Personally, i'm inclined to encourage 'hybrid' systems, where one would master 'two' or more systems, then merge them to create a new and hopefully more effective style.

Agree with Davison. It is very hard nowadays to judge a system's effectiveness, as very few people are 'pure' in their training and what they apply in a confrontation has a lot to do with their state of mind and upbringing. Hapkido offers some very effective concepts. Sort of like an aikido course on steroids (that isn't necessarily a good thing btw), with a few kicks added in. I did not study in hapkido, only witnessed training sessions. A person with a good mindset could apply it effectively as a means of self-defense.

Having been in multiple confrontations over the years, I can attest to mental preparation 'sometimes' working. As Rick67, I visualize past and potential incidents, running it in my mind a thousand ways, each with different outcomes. Doing this helps me to determine not only the best course to take, but also helps me to 'accept' the decisions I end up making that may not have been favorable to my pride or ego. As to entering into new environments, yes... always. Everywhere i go, i subconsciously note the entryways and exits, main thoroughfares, crowds, potential threats, available weapons and obstacles, and... of course, gauge emotions. If i am with someone, i tend to direct them to provide the least disadvantageous situation, such as ensuring they lock the passenger door immediately upon entering the vehicle. However, as is the nature of the beast, sometimes we do drop our guard and it is those moments that invariably become the exploited opportunities for criminals and bullies. And although we can extend our awareness and make it a lifelong passion, there will always be the window of opportunity that lets slip the cold breeze of reality. Given this, preparing for the unexpected, i.e., learning to adapt at the drop of a hat... training oneself to act, rather than merely react, I find to be the true gold. For when that cold breeze hits, it will be too late to put on your jacket.

Basically Vitek, it's going to need to be a personal decision. Wing chun is a very effective 'fighting' system that emphasizes economy of motion. A unique series of forearm drills and what is commonly referred to as 'sticking hands' is the trademark of this system, although it does incorporate a few 'basic' lower body kicks. There are a few variations on wing chun, but they are all 'essentially' the same. The pace at which you learn depends heavily on how traditional the school is, and on how well you master the ability to move your limbs simultaneously, yet independently. The more traditional, the longer it will take to enter into the later stages. Most kickboxing courses tend to be geared for sport. It is a bit of an unfair comparison really. Wing chun is a system, while kickboxing is a term applied to a variety of eclectic competition kicking programs, but generally the kickboxing programs found in most corners tend to offer substandard boxing, along with some TKD kicks. The hard part will be finding a kickboxing trainer that is competent, as pretty much anyone can hand themselves a belt in kickboxing and then run around teaching people. For those offended by this, i am full aware there are many competent kickboxers, as well as many good kickboxing facilities, but the fact remains... there are far more wannabes and substandard facilities providing ample opportunity for injury and unprofessionalism. If you wish to locate a kickboxing facility, I recommend looking for one that has a 'recognized' Golden Gloves boxing instructor and a Muay Thai instructor with some ring experience. These two systems complement well a kickboxing regimen. However, based on your comment about not wanting to be the initiator, and on your experience in gymnastics, I would think a grappling system would be more to your liking and probably far more suited to your physique.

I'm not inclined to enter into an argument with you. I'll state what my experience has been, and that is... 'everything' in the martial arts repertoire of studies is designed to strengthen your ability to survive an encounter, by enforcing one thing or another. If it doesn't look as such, it's likely being done, or taught, incorrectly or it's just plain garbage tossed out by some wannabe. Except in some Chinese systems (where an instructor would often, and intentionally, leave out specific elements to a form or practice), it is exceedingly rare to be instructed to study one thing that is designed to strengthen one aspect of study, while also practicing a residual something that is counter-productive. And yet still thousands of miles away from 'real.' This reminds me of the age-old arguments about karate katas.

Agreed. Hopefully this won't be taken the wrong way. Ad, it is rare that someone gains the opportunity to realize they have limitations. Being bested outside of a 'controlled' environment can be one of the biggest blows to one's confidence, but that is primarily due to the fact their confidence was ill-founded. Take it as a blessing in disquise. You now know far more about your limitations and the flaws in your approach to the study of martial arts. The benefits are not in your becoming a better fighter, nor in gaining confidence. At least not at the onset. The benefits are in gaining a better understanding of what you need to work on. Seriously, people spend decades focusing on the wrong things. Obviously your confidence would have taken a serious blow. All that practice and when it came down to it, you didn't switch into the proper mindset. But, here you are in your teens, you have obtained insight into your mismanagment of modes (mindset, or conditions of human awareness, as Rich67 puts it), and your not taking the most appropriate action, which was to leave the scene or bringing attention to the driver of what you witnessed happening to someone else. Also, considering you 'did' opt to stay in a threatening situation, giving your wallet wouldn't have been so bad and option, right? Ad, consequence -- recognizing for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction -- is an issue that many martial artists learn to respect. Unfortunately, it can also be a crutch and a route to inaction, with an assumption that no action will have no reaction. It is a false assumption, because you only have control of 'your' actions. You do not have control of the actions of others, and therefore your 'inaction' won't prevent them from acting. Holding back because you are concerned something may escalate and a gun may be brought to the fore... is placing 'control' into the hands of the assailant(s). This is a difficult issue, but it 'can' be learned and you 'can' develop your responses, just as you can develop your kicking and striking skills. Training your mind is just as essential as training your body. Some would say it is more important and at this point, i'm sure you would agree with them, but they are both equally important. The facts are this: You recognized a threat, but failed to extricate yourself from the area in which the threat existed. You witnessed a crime, but failed to act responsibly in reporting the crime. When approached, you failed to hand over your personal belongings even though you were in a disadvantageous position (trapped, two opponents, different angles, older/larger), you steadfastly held onto the 'prey' state, rather than switching into predator mode. If you look at all those facts, NOTHING there indicates ANYTHING about whether you had 'superior' fighting ability. In fact, ALL of it demonstrates you need to work on building good judgement. Basically, you painted yourself into a corner by inaction, and therein preventing yourself the 'option' of using any skills you may have acquired over the past three years. Look, everyone makes bad calls and nobody is unbeatable. Being afraid to die or be maimed is a common human characteristic. In fact, it is something that you can learn to take advantage of (learning to instill the fear of death or disfigurement on your potential adversaries). I recommend accepting your mortality, accepting that you will eventually die, and then working to preserve your life for as long as possible. Hey, guess what... you're probably already there. Switching gears, I wanted to touch upon where you should go from here. I again find myself agreeing with Equaninimus, in that you should seek counseling to 'cope' with what happened. Being victimized is not merely a physical issue, it is also a mental one. And although you can reenter the dojo and punch out a few bags, or get overly aggressive with your training partners, it is not going to resolve your "coulda, woulda, shoulda" feelings, nor are you going to effectively manage it alone (yes, i know... we're here, but we can't gauge your emotions... or your facades through the internet). Your feelings now are normal and it is an indication that your mind is working to 'heal' itself, but having professional guidance will help to ensure the incident leaves but a minor scar (psychologist, not psychiatrist... and no, don't take any medications). Last thing to think about: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. You're free to walk the streets and they are awaiting a prison sentence.

Agree with Equaninimus. Bretty101, the fraction of a second pause is a 'movie/stunt' thing that many practitioners have, unfortunately, adopted and it is not something you should continue to practice. It instills a hesitation to change-up. I.e., it's not as much about conserving energy, as it is about efficiency. When in doubt, use common sense. If you are in a life-threatening situation, would you rather look pretty in a pose, or change to meet the impact-opportunity presented?

The key word here is 'partner.' Sparring is a low-key exercise, where you are trusting them not to put you in the hospital, and they are, in turn, trusting you. A tournament is not a sparring session, although maintaining respect and demonstrating restraint is still essential. Sparring, in general, should be restrained. On the occasions i do spar, i practice 'different' things. My goal is not beat my 'partner,' it is to better 'myself' and to examine the effectiveness of various techniques or approaches. If i repeatedly apply a technique that works quite well against a particular 'partner,' I am limiting my learning experience and enforcing a flaw in my partner's defensive techniques. This does not serve either of us.

In ten years time I will be ten years older and have obtained ten more years of knowledge. I hope to have bettered myself, helped more people, shared with those willing to learn and learned from those willing to share.

Thanks Treebranch. That was insightful.

I always find it interesting when people refer to 'real' confrontations as 'in the street.' Confrontations come in all forms and under a variety of circumstances, with no two ever being even remotely similar, and rarely in the same place. Learning how to kick in a variety of ways can come in handy, if an opportunity or opening arises, but the more basic kicks offer the largest chance of being implemented. Front kicks, side kicks, sweeps, stomps, and knees are quick and simple, and when it comes right down to it... simplicity is the key, for it offers the most direct route to ending the confrontation.

Entertaining read. Although I can't say I agree with the final analysis. Social interaction does help to drive a person to maintain their studies, to be diligent, but partnership is a necessity in training and therefore oftentimes grudgingly tolerated. As you stated, it is hard to practice without partners. Even moreso without friends. So, making friends becomes a side-goal in an effort to enhance the benefits of training and not necessarily the actual driving force. Recently, a man fumed, entered into my personal space and attempted to intimidate. The incident ended without need for violence but it reminded me why I maintain my studies, despite my collection of injuries. Each and every day there is something that challenges your level of confidence. Whether it be a relative, friend, stranger, or cataclysmic event, confidence is the one true friend and partner in life. I maintain my studies because I want to build this relationship, to a feeling that does not abandon me, but for which I have abandoned often enough in the past. I return to my studies after a hiatus because i find myself drifting away... a long-established friendship slowly evaporating due to neglect. And it is this friendship that creates my personal interaction. A study into my own mind and into the driving force to my continued involvement in the pursuit of inner peace.

Old thread, but one in need of input - Sorry Cross, but your post lacked anything more than quick quip. Granted, you were the only one who responded, and for that you deserve kudos. To compare, one needs to have experienced San Soo, in addition to another system (or other systems). It also needs to be understood that San Soo is a complete system. Being a complete system means two things. One is, you won't learn it all in a few years as it does not consist of a set amount (or series) of techniques/actions that must be 'perfected.' It is a system that 'becomes' a lifelong study. The other is that a complete system consists of all aspects of combat. The study of striking, anatomy, body mechanics, psychology, physical principles, and environ. This being said, there are very few 'complete systems' experienced in the United States and Europe. Most 'popular' systems focus on just one or two aspects of combat, and in doing so... one can become very well equipped to handle a circumstance that is geared to that particular form or instance of combat. Unfortunately, having an altercation happen at just the right time, in just the right place, under just the right conditions, and in a 'specific' manner in which you trained for... is a pipe dream. The fact of the matter is, when an altercation happens, it is likely not going to be something scripted. You are likely not going to be properly attired, it may just have rained, you may have loved ones nearby... or in immediate danger. The opponent may have a weapon or he may have friends. You may not know who those friends are, in the scene of onlookers. You may not be aware that one of your opponents is well trained in grappling, while another is well trained in a kicking technique. You may be at the bottom of a set of stairs, or halfway through a doorway when confronted. etc etc etc... A complete system attempts to 'help' you to build your reactions and responses to deal with any situation, as well as help you to 'decrease' the likelihood that you'll end up in such situations. It helps you to not only learn how to fight, but how not to fight... and when not to fight. So... to compare San Soo, a complete system, to an incomplete system, you will obviously find that the incomplete system may provide more indepth instruction in a very limited repertoire of actions, but that... due to it being incomplete, you will find there are glaring gaps... exploitable gaps. If you compare San Soo, a complete system, to another complete system... apples and oranges. The hard part here is not merely finding another complete system, but being able to 'knowledgeably' recognize when a system is complete.