TangSooGuy

A lot of great points being made here... just to point it out, there is also a ton of discussion on this in this thread: http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=13404 ..for the record, i agree with White Warlock, delta1, and DLopez...

Sorry, I guess I misinterpreted your meaning. Sounds to me like we actually agree with one another. It IS most definitely an interesting story, one I've shared with a lot of people. The problem is that this kind of thinking is rampant right here in the US right now, and people seem to think that taking the wepaons away is a good idea, when history has consistently shown the opposite to be true.

And that somehow makes it better? Crime escalated in Australia when they made citizens turn in thrir guns, because the criminals didn't turn in theirs. Why would swords be any different? the only thing you do by taking weapons away from people is make them more dangerous, not less. Look at the japanese occupation of Okinawa and Korea...taking weapons away just makes people more innovative (and no I'm not talking aboutthe tales of the sai and nunchaku being farm implements turned into weapons, but it's a good analogy) And, truthfully, this is happening in America, although to a lesser degree... beware traveling to New York if you carry (or even pack) a folding knife... From Realfighting.com : (warning-quite long)

Let's agree to disagree on this subject. It's apparently a debate that's not going to come to any middle ground. So I'm not going to try to convince anyone, I'm just going to relate some of my experiences. I was teaching along with a partner at a clinic this past weekend, and the subject was sparring. At one point we were demonstrating sparring at an advanced level, but with no gear, and no conact (at least that ws the plan). I got a little off balance and took a shot to the ribs, hard. Let's see: I experienced adrenaline rush, I experienced intense pain. What I did NOT do is drop my guard, or stop fighting. I dis not cry out or ask my partner if we could stop. I was not "shocked" at the amount of pain I was in. It still hurts today, at at one point it was hurting so bad to move, that I thought I might have bruised or even cracked a rib. Perhaps I should have been so shocked by the experience of adrenaline and pain that I would have stopped fighting, or should have been "unprepared" to have kept going without a pause, but that isn't what happened. Or, at the very least, since we only do semi-contact sparring, my partner's technique should have lacked power and been ineffective...it wasn't, it hurt like hell, and as I said, it still does. He wasn't trying to hit me, but it happens now and again. And when it does, it hurts. Sometimes we get injured, and we deal with it and move on, just like anyone should. I know a lot of stories of people who have used the abilities learned in non-contact arts to defend themselves in real situations. I know of a woman who worked as a nurse in a prison facility who had been training less than 6 months, when one of the prisones grabbed her. As soon as she felt him grabbing, she instinctively dropped down and blasted him in the knee with a side kick. He went down like a ton of bricks. She got up and walked away. There are dozens of similar stories I could relate. Now here's my disclaimer: When you fight for light contact or no contact situations, you can't allow yourself to be so restricted by a set of rules that you're not prepared to throw other techniques (such as kicks to the knee) when they are needed. You must also practice striking objects, such as a heavy bag with full power strikes. It's one of the reasons so many traditional arts practice breaking. While it's true that "boards don't hit back", that statement ignores the purpose of bteaking, which teached both focus and penetration. If you can't break one board with a technique (or even multiple boards), you can't expect that that technique is going to cause any physical harm to anyone... But I digress. The ability to fight is actually one of the least important things the martial arts have taught me. The ability to avoid fighting is far greater. Because of what I've learned in the martial arts, I don't expect that I'll be in a "real" fight today, or even this year, or maybe ever. If I am, I am prepared for it. ...As to the comments of getting in the ring...I've been there, I've done that, and I've come out mostly unharmed. I've received black eyes. I once got my nose broken. I've returned the same to others. I've been close to knocked out, and I've knocked out other people on at least 3 occasions. The experience did not make me believe there was anything ineffective about my training, nor did it make me want to run out and do it more. I'm not looking to get hurt, and I don't enjoy hurting others, either. I proved to myself that the techniques I learned will work, and proved that I could take a blow and shrug it off. I did this without having ever trained exclusively for full contact. I've done it by visiting other schools that train full contact (after being invited), and I've done it with friends that just wanted the experience of "going a little harder". Through it all, I was never once convinced that I need to change anything about the way I train. I consider the experiences I've had with full contact valuable, as all experiences are. I do not consider them a defining point in my martial arts career, other than perhaps as validation that what I'm doing works as well as what others are doing. Sorry, I know I'm rambling a little bit, but I wanted everyone to know that I experienced fighting on all of these levels, and I know others who have. Through it alll, I've never come across any hard evidence that full contact is superior, nor that semi-contact is superior. In the end, it has always come down to who is more experienced, who wants it more, and who is more 'on' on a given day. In my experience, it comes down to the individual and how seriously they take their training, not to the style of that training.

I actually hounded my parents until they let me join... they ere sure I would quit, just as I had quit everything else... My dad made it to second degree black belt, and quit for pysical and political reasons... 20 years after starting, though, I am still involved and getting my "Master's" belt next month....

Oj, this is just scary...I've seen a llot of people saying that first they'll take away the guns, then they'll take away the swords...and it's happening in Australia...

If you do forms without studying the application, you are totally missing the point. ...and the longer you've practiced a particular form, the more applications you should have for each move. I've also seen many martial artists that claim to study the bunkai of kata, but then never actually try to make the applications work, which is another huge mistake. I try to force my students to think of multiple applications for every technique they do, in forms, drill, or any other time. I then ask them if they can make it work. If they can make it work, I ask them if they can make it work for people of different sizes, strengths, etc. Bottom line, if you aren't studying bunkai, you really aren't studying your technique at all, in my opinion

I guess my definition of "semi-contact" must be a little broader than most, as I've taken pretty solid hits to all of the above areas, and given them out as well...also the groin, shins, kidneys, back, etc.... I also see nothing wrong with using elbows and knees to block and strike... one of my favorite techniques is to block incoming kicks with my elbows... And kicking someone in the thigh is a great way to stop them from kicking you... I'll agree that if you only fight by "tournament rules" you're going to be in trouble in a real fight, but I don't think tournament and no/light contact have to be synonomous... How do you define the line between "semi/light contact" and "full contact"? To me it sems liek full contact would result in a lot of knockouts, bleeding, and broken bones...all of which I generally try to avoid...I've caused a few people to bleed from time to time, but that's really not been my intent...

I don't think the idea of semi-contact, or no contact sparring is really flawed, it's the execution of that sparring that is flawed. I've pretty much always done semi-contact sparring, occasionally more to the full contact side of things, but I'm still confident that even when sparring no contact, the techniques I use would work whene executed properly. Why? Because I've always been taught that the goal of no contact sparring was to execute my techniques at full speed, with full power, but not actually strike the target. In some ways, this is actually HARDER to do than full-contact fighting, because you are attempting to put everything you have into a technique, but stop just short of the actual blow. Some would argue that practicing this way makes you ineffective, that you'd always stop short in a real fight. Again, I disagree. I still practice striking targets and heavy bags,and even boards with full power techniques. I know the difference between penetrating with a technique and stopping short. The problem, as I see it, is that many peple never progress beyond the "beginner level" stages of no or semi- contact sparring. In the beginning stages, it is often necessary for practitioners to slow their techniques, or back down on power somewhat, due to a lack of control. (in other words to stop them from killing each other). Many never progress beyond this stage, at which techniques are not being used truly effectively. As one progresses, however, control should increase, and so should the speed and power of the techniques being used. I know that my techniques can work, because the few times when my control has been a little off, I've been able to drop large men (250 lbs +) like a ton of bricks. On one occasion I even accidentally knocked someone out for a couple of seconds. Hey, that's what the head gear is for, right? Seriously, though, I'm not out to get hurt or hurt anyone, but I don't think even no contact sparring will, or even should, preclude anyone from taking a hit now and again. I know what a good hit feels like, and I'd say most experienced martial artists can say the same, regardless of how they spar. I agree that if you've never taken a real hit, you're really not going to what to expect. Even this can be prepared for to a degree, though. While I'm not out to create pain, you can simulate the effects of certain strikes or injuries. I've made my students try to fight while dizzy (make them soin around for awhile first), with only one arm or leg (simulating injury), or even while trying to hold their breath (strikes to the stomach or chest can cause the temporary inability to breathe). It's important that we train for different situations, and for the unexpected, but i don't agree that full contact is needed to prepare people for those situations, nor to make techniques effective. I don't see anything inherently worng with training full contact either, other than the possibility of sustaining more injuries, but if you don't see that as a distinct possibility when going into a full contact match, then I have to ask what you are thinking. Sorry, I realize I'm starting to babble, but it's simply not true that all no-contact or semi-contact fighters don't know how to fight in a real situation. Nor is true that all of them do know how. The same can be said of full contact fighters, though, in my experience.

Great story, thanks for sharing. Sounds like you've already had to learn a lot of the lessons many of us don't get until much later. The journey certainly doesn't get any easier, but it does get better. I wish all the best to you and your father.

Well, I'll have to echo what other people have said. When you are put in charge you are IN CHARGE. So I definitely would have corrected the student and let him know in no uncertain terms that his 'feedback' was not welcome at this point. I've actually had the problem in a different way: I was training in a class with a first Dan in charge while I was Third Dan. It was his assigned class, and I had just come in to get some training in. Any time he did anything he looked to me and asked permission first. It's good to have protocol and chain of command in place, but it was getting ridiculous, so I had to explain to him that when he is in front of the class, he is the teacher and I am the student, and that's how he should look at it. There's still a certain level of respect to be maintained, but it needs to go both ways. Hope that makes sense, i'm not sure I'm entirely awake...

Well I hate to argue the point, because it's true that taking martial arts won't automatically make you a good fighter. You have to have the drive and ambition to actually learn how to fight. Part of the problem does lie in the instruction as well, but not in the art itself per se. For every true story of an experienced karateka being taken down by a wrestler or a street fighter, there is another true story of a wrestler or street fighter being taken down by a karateka, they just don't get the same level of "press". I know personally of an experienced wrestler who thought he had the upper hand on a traditional martial artist because of his ground fighting abilities. When he shot in to take the martial artist to the ground, he was met with a front kick to the face, followed up by an axe kick to the back, and when his head bounced off the ground, he was met with another front kick to the face. So, kicking can be effective, not that I'm suggesting it's the only way or even the best way to handle every situation. In another situation, the same wrestler might have taken a traditional martial artist to the ground and had him locked up or might begin pummeling him. I think it just comes down to the situation, and the level of understanding of the parties involved.

I never understtod this one is better than the othe mentality, personally... Why can't I do both, or whatever seems most appropriate for the situation?

Yes, we do train for ground fighting situations, but not extensively. ...and 90% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Well, I do agree that instructors need to be able to lead by example, and can't just stand there and do nothing... and it's ok to question, up to a point. The line is where it becomes an outright challenge to comepetence and authority in the class.. Anyway, I've sparred with my instructor more times than I can count. I have no reason to doubt his abilities. I do remember one time when we were practicing one-steps, and people didn't really understand why we did them. he decided to demonstrate how they really worked... So, he had me come up front and said "Try to really hit me." I was thinking "Do I have to?" Let's just say I never even saw him move, and my feet were in the air over my head before I even had time to think about how to counter anything...and this was after I had tested for 4th Dan...he should be up for 6th Dan soon. so, yeah, I have no problems calling him a "master"

I don't know, I've always been taught to us both concepts as much as possible.. This is simplifying it beyond belief, but my instructor used to always tell me: "Counter a circular attack with a straight line; counter a linear attack with a circle.."

Oh, I love that one....I've gotten everything from "can you chop this table in half?" to "can you make yourself invisible?" (seriously...) My favorite is "could you kill me with your bare hands?" depending who asks that one, I just look at them deadpan and let out an unemotinal "Yes."

4th Dan, Tang Soo Do

You're right...I hate it when people come up to me and ask me "Are you a black belt?"...especially when I'm wearing my uniform and they can see that my belt is black..."No, i'm actually a green belt, I'm just colorblind..." But I digress....the point is they don't even know what a "black belt" is... I just try to educate them a little, and let them know that better questions to ask are: "How long have you been training/ teaching?" or "What did it take to get to your present rank?" That's almost always what they really want to know anyway. And most peope hate it when you tell them that it takes a lot of hard work...I'm amazed at the number of people who walk onto the floor thinking they're going to turn into Jackie Chan or Bruce lee in a week or a month without working for it... and even moe amazed at the number of people that put no time into their training outside of class, even though I tell them repeatedly that the time they spend in class alone is not enough...

Too many people view the title "master" the wrong way...like the person teaching is their master and they are a slave...which really isn't at all how the title is used in martial arts today, in my experience. It's an earned title, like 'Doctor' or 'Colonel'...no one has a problem using those titles, so 'Master' really isn't a problem for me either, although it's only ever used along with a last name, like 'Master Smith', and never just 'Master' by itself, in my personal experience. Other times it's just 'Sir' or 'Sah Bum Nim' (Korean equivalent to sensei/ sifu) I think people just look at the titles wrong personally... there is a really disturbing trend in society right now in my opinion that basically seems to be thinking that martial arts instructors should all teach for free, never discipline anyone for fear of hurting their feelings, and never use titles that they have earned... I believe it's all in backlash to the torrent of McDojos that have opened like crazy and their bad practices...but that doesn't mean that fees, belts, and titles in and of themselves are bad things...

i would suggest a private conference be arranged with the parents. If they push you on what it is for, of ourse you need to explain some of the situation, but this is definitely something best handled privately. If that doesn't work, I would say you need to talk to the kid one-on-one and as tactfully as possible explain the problem. A generic list of rules sent out to everyone explaining that uniforms and sparring gear must be cleaned regularly wouldn't hurt either, but if it is only one kid, I'd say handling the matter privately is best.

As far as I am aware (fully admitting that I could be wrong) bowing to another person as a sign of mutual respect does not conflict with any religion. It is only bowing down to another person or image as a sign of worship that is against many religious beliefs, which is why many people will not bow to Buddhist or Shinto shrines that are displayed in some martial arts studios. I feel that in the second case, they are perfectly within their rights. In the first case however, I think that they eitehr don't unserstand the concept of bowing, or they don't fully understand their own religion. If anyone tells me they cannot bow in my studio, I try to, as calmly as possible, first explain the reasons why we bow, and if they are still uncomfortable with it, I suggest that tthey may want to look around and see whether there is another studio where they will be more comfortable. I'd be willing to try to work something out if they truly had a burning desire to train, but in my opinion, allowing yourself to bow is the first step towards many lessons in humility and respect. Anyone who outright refuses to do so is going to have a hard time. That's just my opinion, though...I'm sure there are others who have valid reasons to disagree with me.

Well said. I wholeheartedly agree.

Just saw the first one the other night. It was good, but not as good as I was hoping for. It's basically like a a live action version of Japanese Anime....

I earned my black belt (first dan) when I was 15...and I place emphasis on earned. I was not given any leeway, I was not taught down to or talked down to, and I was expected to have the same knowledge, physical skills, and maturity that any adult testing for that rank was expected to have. I was expected to be able to teach what I knew to others, as well, although i did have to wait until I was 18 to get full instructor certifcation, and by that time, I was a 2nd Dan. I tested because I was ready to test. I agree that it really has nothing to do with age. If I had been told that I wasn't reeady to test because I wasn' old enough, I would have been insulted. i would have been equally insulted though if I had been able to test but had been held to a lower standard because of my age. I think it comes down to a metter of setting expectations. If a student meets r exceeds those expectations, tehy should pass, and if not, they should fail. I had the opportunity to sit on a testing panel this past weekend for some young students testing for 2nd dan. The ones who met my expectations received a passing grade from me, and thos who did not received a failing grade from me. As long as your standards are set at a given level, I'm not sure age has to factor into it. I am now 30 years old and have my 4th Dan. I never stopped training, and I don't intend to. There is simply too much to learn. I think we are selling youth martial artists short. Children will rise to meet your expectations, but you must set them high first. The ones that don't meet your expectations shouldn't ever be black belts. If you pre-judge all children and have low expectations for them, then you will have low-end achievers. Expecting more is the only way to get more.