pvwingchun

To many variables to determine this. Besides where do you get the stats. Juan Montoya just won the Gran Prix of Monte Carlo in a BMW. Why is it unlikely. Not true. Until MMA or any other art that claims to be the best stops claiming to be the answer there will be disagreements. Most traditionalists I know feel no need to prove anything. How do you know you will win. We have a great wealth of knowledge where I train. We don't train for competition we train to survive. Why do some feel the constant need to puff out their chest and extoll the virtues of MMA or any particular art for tath matter. It would make much more sense to discuss differernces and similarities without putting down what others do and how they do it.

Not True Not true Not true

I have read many stories about what happened. Unfortunately those who know are gone.

There is some anecdotal evidence, albeit from his kung fu brothers. People like Hawkins Cheung, William Cheung, Wung Shun Leung, etc. who have said he was a very good fighter. If you go to there web sites or websites about them you can find "tales and stories" about their fights.

I have stayed out of this but I would like to now offer a few view points. We have people in the kwoon who study for health reasons and that is obvious. It is a social climate for them, something like going to a gym. I am sure every school has them. Not everybody who walks in the door wants to fight, that is obvious by the lack of bodies on sparring nite, be it full or light contact. BTW we do from time to time train as close to full contact as we can without hurting each other. Point sparring and tournaments (UFC, NHB and the likes included) are different then trainig for self defense on the street where there are no rules. Contrary to popular belief there are rules in NHB and UFC contests. A very long list at that. If you train to point spar that is how you will fight. You train like you fight and you fight like you train. Depending on the art you train and goal that you train towards produces the individual capable of using the art in its intended form or not. There are many serious people training in traditional arts that have no desire to get in a ring and prove their manhood. Those are the guys that scare me not the ones spouting off about how they and their art are the best being it a MMA or a TMA. Those guys train in traditional methods that would make the "brutality" of MMA competitiors training look like a Sunday school. I or anyone else for that matter can train just as hard to fight and protect myself as someone who trains to fight in a tournament and get the same results if I train with the proper mindset. What matters is your ultimate goal with the tools you have received. I think someone else has said it is the competitor not the art.

John G. Very well put.

thumbless. I tell students i am going to start bringing in duct tape and tape their thumb down so they can't use it. Basically the same reason as you stated plus we don't like to be that committed. For example if you lop someone and they pull back to counter the hand just slips off allowing you to continue forward where if you have grabbed with the thumb that quuick change of energy on your opponents behalf may throw you off or they can lock it up. Make sense?

From the ground up Only 3 weeks when I started I did the very first drill we learn for a month. LOL. Sifu would say work this and I will be back later to check on you. Twenty minutes later you would get a correction. After about a month give or take a week you got the second drill. But then one translation of kung fu means is hard work. Now we have students who after 2 minutes think they have got it and are ready for Chum Kiu. There is a little more give and take now in hopes of student retention, in the end they still get the same amount of training but it is broke up differently. There is a big difference between paying the bills and training in a garage and simply passing on the art.

We tell our students that every art has it's own set of unique advantages and disadvantages. Wing Chun just has less disadvantages. Heh, heh, heh. We know our art is weak in a controlled tournament like environment where there are rules. Not us. There is no fancy stuff in WC only really cool stuff, as my SiHing likes to put it "Ahhhh very good kung fu." Illogical comparison. This could never happen.

It is something that just clicks, we tell people one day the light will go on.

That one is hard to explain. Keeping a safe elbow distance it goes from center in somewhat of an arc to the side. If that makes any sense . The elbow is the source of the movement. I don't know if that is uderstandable it is easier to look at than explain.

Looking at it slowly it does somewhat but only very slightly. I think it more a movement from the natural rotation of the wrist. As I huen down slightly and then to the outside yes it does go down slightly. How do you do it?

We pull wu sao back to solar plexus level then drop to fook sao which remains at the solar plexus level. Then travels at an angle up to about mid throat level before huening to wu sao.

I know very little of the history of the knives. I have read that although somewhat different than today's knives they were a weapon used by the monks.

I realize there is no offense meant. I am simply stating that we all have our opinions. And based on the lack of actual factual evidence in Chinese history those opinions are going to be varied. But it is good to hear that as brothers in WC we can debate something without petty mudslinging and name calling as frequently happens on the Kung Fu Online forum which I read and post to occassionally. No they are not affiliated with Leung Ting. They "claim" to represent all WC lineages. But while they claim to represent all there articles are skewed towards their "brand " of WC.

It is beleived that he developed one particular "sect" of the opera by some. I beleive I read the opera at its peak had somewhere around 20 vessels. As I said there are so many stories and so many claim to have basis in fact. The Ving Tsun Mususeum here in the states now claims to have the authentic history......Which many believe simply to be a marketing ploy to sell their particular brand of Wing Chun. So don't get me wrong I am not saying you are wrong and I am right just putting fuel for debate out there. Hoping that we can get some others in on this conversation. I read recently that history is just one persons version of the known facts twisted to fit their particular outcome. With all that said it is interesting getting others opinions. As for Ng Mui being a Ming princess this is just one of the histories I have read. Supposedly the Ming Princess Wu Mei????? was put into the temple for safety. She was trained by the monks in the martial arts and became the keeper of WC. Another good story, although there may be basis for her existence, as to whether she was Ng Mui or not, your guess is as good as anybodies.

As I said I would have to go back and read everything again. You may be right. As for the stories created by the press I don't doubt that and the stories of everyone else involved put their spin onit I am sure.

A common thread throughout the histories is the developement of WC to be effective against other styles of known martial arts and military fighting methods of the time. Therefore it would stand to reason that it would be different than other southern styles.

The red junk opera started in the mid 1500's. Therefore Cheung Ng could have had nothing to do with the devevlopement. Yes he existed but his contributions to WCare dubious at best and only legend. He may have performed "opera" martial arts. He was in the opera. records show he existed and was a great influence on the opera his exact skill as a martial artist is unknown. Therefore his connection to WC is strictly legend. No one knows for sure. Why do they become arbitrary and have no bearing? If Ng Mui was created to hide the existance of Cheung Ng or someone else then we "simply" need to determine the origin of the legend and put it in perspective. As you believe that some of those who were supposed to exist seem to coincidental, I do also about the contributions of Cheung Ng. It is too much of a coincidence that he was also named Tan Sao Ng. There are many stories as to the origin of that name. One being his martial ability the other of paralysis of the arm to him being a beggar with his hand out. Plus if he and his contributions were known why don't we know of others of that same time frame who either learned or were connected to him. Why the gap in the timeline. Again I have read in the history of Shaolin that the southern styles such as WC were developed for stability in the terrain in which they must fight. Wet, slick, muddy hillsides and paths therefore the need for good stable footwork. This along with the configuration and architecture of the cities of the time and with the temples being a central place of rebellious activity it seems more likely that WC developed in the temple and spread from there, for one to the opera boats for further developement. There is much anecdotal evidence from the temples themselves to suggest this. And how do you explain the differeing lineages that have lines back to the temple such as Jee Shim Wing Chun. Who is believed to have been a major contributor.

I would have to go back and read the story again. As I remember he was upset with him for teaching WC but it has been a long time since I read about it.

Sorry I wasn't thinking when I responded. That was one of the reasons for the tension between himself and Yip Man.

You are simply stating legend, there is no historical eveidence that he had anything to do with WC. We know he existed and was an opera member but it is awfully convenient that his name was also Tan Sao Ng. Some people believe he got that name because he was crippled and his arm was in that position due to paralysis. I am trying to seperate fact from legend. As for the time lines they are not that accurate. And some histories do portray him as a monk. There are as many stories about him as Ng Mui or Yim Wing Chun. Is it possible that they are one in the same and the legend was created to hide his identity? Depending on whose history or teachings or research you believe will influence your story. The truth is no one knows for sure the history. I have been incontact with people who have done some research that believe none of the legends and that WC atcutally developed in other ways with different characters. I have also read that the southern styles were developed for stability in the terrain in which they must fight. Wet, slick, muddy hillsides and paths therefore the need for good stable footwork. Which wuld so happen to translate into use on the boats. So you see there is no definitive answer. FWIW there are no historical records of the time which limits our understanding of the time. What of Jee Shim did he exist or not? And what were his contributions? As for women most of what I find says yes they were present in the temple.

from the ground up can you elaborate more on this statement I have never heard of this legend. According to the various histories I have read many credit Leung Bok Chau with bringing the knives to system.

I have never heard this.

That is obviously legend but can we discount there contributions with no proof? How do people out htere feel about the legend that the monks watched animals for fighting ideas? Which brings up the question was it a fox or a snake and a crane? No one has yet answered or brought up any more questions for debate. So here goes another. Was Wing Chun developed because of the tight alley ways in the cities of the time where a close range style is necessay or did it develop after it got on the opera boats, which we believe played a role in the developement? Was maybe one the primary reason and the other secondary and only incidental? Is it possible that the monks foresaw the success of the opera boats as a place to develop WC or was it developed to use in the cities and the opera boat developemnt incidental and additional since the style already had been developed and worked so well on tight quarters? Did WC evolve in the secret societies and as the secret societies moved onto the opera boats to hide so did WC?