pvwingchun

Hey Drunken whats up haven't posted in awhile. I used to think this also. This is what I was taught. Even the drills we did taught us this. Why? It is just a drill I was told. Why teach someone to give up center and tell them it is just a drill, it goes against principle. Then as an instructor I honestly couldn't do it anymore. You never intentionally give up the center. At all times maintain control of your opponents center. IT will happen that you may lose the center but you must regain it as quickly as possible. But never intentionally give up center. It is all in the feet.

No I have not been there. But as I said be wary of those of claim to have the truth and documentation as much as I respect the work they have done much of it is no more than speculation again. Just a different way of presenting them.......

I have no idea where I have gotten most of my histories. Many are emailed to me, I pick them up from various places on the web most I don't remember. And unfortunately many were lost ina computer crash about 6 months ago. Although Rene Ritchie wrote a good book a few years ago and maintains a website, https://www.wingchunkuen.com. The Ving Tsun Musuem site aside from recently promoting the Hung Fa Yi version has one or two very interesting versions on their site.....The Kung Fu Online Forum is another good place to lurk around in to pick up a good story from time to time...... Always remember that history in WC is probably lost forever and when someone tells you they have the true story they are more than likely trying to sell their lineageand their version of things.

47MartialMan obviously you didn't understand the point to this history. It clearly states that up until Leung Jan there is no historical evidence to the players in WC history. If you want a really good read Rene Ritchie wrote a book several years ago that separates fact from fiction and goes into the differing lineages and their histories. I will tell you this the traditional story and its timeline are highly speculative at best and at the worst totally wrong. Either some of these folks were very old or very young you can figure that one out. But it is what we have and it is an interesting tale. This is what we know "What we do know is in 1644 the Manchurians took over and an end came to the Ming Dynasty. Revolutionary societies sprang up after the fall of the Ming government early in the Qing Dynasty. The Shaolin Temple became a place where revolutionary activities took place and people loyal to the Ming family took refuge." Between this and Leung Jan it is all speculation, myth and legend and even this much above is open to interpretation. But it makes for a good story. As for Cheung Ng (Tan Sau Ng) even his place in WC history is highly speculative. There are so many theories that you could spend a lifetime searching. It is highly likely that there were two phases of development one that gives us the close quarters combat with the cutting angle footwork (Red Junk period?) and one that gives us a wider more open stance used with the pole and knives. While the pole probably comes from the boats the footwork shown would not necessarily work and was probably pre Junk adapted to the boats. But that is all speculation and to my knowledge no one has anything definitive pre mid to late 1800's. For that matter even some of the Ip Man history may be hidden who is to say he was telling the truth about what he knew of the history of WC.......... IMO I do know that there is a man by the name of Hendrick Santo? who has a very good grasp on WC history and because of the fact he has access to documents no one has he has a rather unique view of WC history. I have read and saved more histories than I can shake a stick at. It is one of the lures of WC for me. I have read everything form the downright stupid to ones that make absolute perfect sense. The truth is we don't know and will probably never know the truth. The problem is there are so many folks out there that claim to have the truth yet there version is really no different than anyone elses except for a minor detail or two.

Check the history here. http://www.wing-chun.us/history.htm

Tell me about it. I have been an assistant for 1 year and full instructor now for 4 months and now this. I am a little shocked to say the least. I was so stunned I didn't know what to say I walked out and went about my business (I am leaving on vacation for 2 weeks in the morning and am a little busy) then it started to sink in.....

I walked into my school this afternoon and was told I was no longer an instructor. That I would be a paying student again. I brought the insurance thing up a week or so ago to bring them up to speed so they would be covered as well as myself. I was told that after checking with their insurance they couldn't afford it........

How many of you out there are assistant instructors in your school? We all know how it works, you get to a certain point and some of you become assistants and no longer pay tuition or pay reduced tuition. You are in limbo. You are not a paid instructor and you are not a student. I found out from my insurance agent that if someone gets hurt you are liable not the school or management. You either need to carry your own liability or be put specifically on the insurance where you train by name. This was on the advice of my insurance company.

Yes there is. And we are th only WC school in the area unless you go to Phoenix which is a 90 minute drive. The Self Defense Academy in Prescott Valley. Sifu also has a Chino Valley location. The main school is in PV though. Just look us up when you get here. We are a few short minutes from the Prescott area and have several students who come in from as far out as Willamson Valley and Bagdad. We look forward to meeting you.

Well has anybody got the results?????????? I can't find them posted anywhere for that matter information onit in general is slim at best.

I simply see no need to apply rules to WC when one of the major principles is, there are no rules in a fight. I see no reason to put it in the ring to try and prove that it works there. It goes to the way we train people, we train them to survive, not get in the ring and fight because we believe that is not WC or where it belongs.

Exactly and I never back up. At 6'1" 220 I can usually apply the principle of everything moves forward, especially me, to my advantage and I like to step into elbow range, most people are not comfortable when you get that close and will back up and when they start moving backwards........... Well you got the completely superior thing right anyway..... I have complete faith in my art and make no excuses for anything or anyone and realize the rules are the same for both fighters, so assume nothing. I am simply saying that I cannot understand why WC people feel the need to get in the ring to prove their art when there is no need to do so. I also believe that the rules hamper ones ability to do proper Wing Chun therefore what you see in the ring will not be WC but a WC guy fighting under boxing rules. And you are right the best fighter will win, not the best art because no matter how good you are there is always someone better no matter what they practice and their is always the lucky punch.

I agree with this but when you confine yourself to one range, the punching range, you are elimniating all other tools in all other ranges. You are eliminating the use of HAND techniques that are used and dictated by range and essentially using boxing techniques which is the punching range. If I step into elbow range I don't back up to punching range, this is against the principles as I train them, I throw an elbow. Wing Chun is about principles (ideas as I believe you are calling them) but there is still a certain set of techniques that go along with those principles and those two compliment each other. The bottom line is I believe I lose alot and you believe you lose only a little from Wing Chun by changing it to put it in the ring, and never shall we meet in our agreement. I train and teach my Wing chun for a very specific purpose and refuse to adapt it to the rules of the ring. If you or anyone else can and or feel the need to do it please do. This is obviously a history difference and I don't even want to go there. We could be here for years discussing this.

My point exactly this is not a Wing Chun fight but a boxing match. When you fight in a ring with boxing rules you are a boxer. Which is essentially what this is. When you enter a ring and fight under their rules you are simply a Wing Chun , karate, etc guy fighting in a boxing match. Because it wasn't designed to fight in the ring it was designed for the battlefield, as were most classical arts, but most Wing Chun people have never felt the need to adapt it to the ring. And I do not know why Wing Chun people feel the need to get in the ring and prove themselves and that Wing Chun works in the ring under all of these different sets of rules. I am sure it could be adapted but I would be willing to bet it would not resemble the Wing Chun I know. But I personally refuse to start stripping down and throwing away my tools. Have you ever tried to bong and lop followed by fak sau with a 10 oz. glove on, doesn't work. Oh and by the way you can't do that anyway. What about tan sau to cheng sau oops open palm can't use that. Maybe I will side step reverse lan sau take to ground. Sorry they disqualify you for that. And if you are talking about not having control, the more advanced techniques you use the more control it takes to execute them properly unfortunately most of them are illegal even if used even in a manner as to simply strike the opponent without being deadly or life threatening. I could go on and on but when all you can do is punch you can longer call it Wing Chun, you may use one or two Wing Chun techniques but you are not doing Wing Chun.

You know your right it is an excuse. I am just making them up now before he fights and gets beat. CYA that is what I always say. I am so tired of hearing that the rules apply to both sides I hear that all the time. If you want to train to fight with rules in the ring, or to roll around with your buddies on a mat somewhere, go ahead, but there are no rules in a self defense situation on the street and that is where we train for. That is my Wing Chun. The ring is completely different game and one I believe that is not suited to Wing Chun at least the way I train and teach it.

The rules are extensive here is what isn't allowed. (a) The following are defined as fouls: Using the head to deliver a blow. Using the elbow. Attacking the opponent in the groin (attacks to the groin with knee kicks or hand techniques shall be considered as low-blows and will be ruled as fouls). Using techniques from wrestling or judo such as throwing or submission techniques. Thumbing, choking or biting on the opponent. Attacking the opponent while he is down or in the process of getting up. Attacking the opponent while the referee is intervening to separate the fighters. Holding the ropes to attack the opponent, or to avoid the attack from the opponent. However, this is not applicable in the situation in case the referee determines that it is inevitable to hold the ropes. Using offensive or insulting language. Attacking the back of the head with a punch (the side of the head and the area around the ears are not considered as the back of the head and are valid target areas). Attempting to cause the opponent to fall out of the ring. Voluntarily exiting the ring during the course of a match.

Rules and gloves not a good combination for a Wing Chun man.

Cans you post a little more infoon the K! fight with the WC specialist. Is it on the card you mentioned or at another time.

Drunken Monkey Check your pm for my info about who and where I train I don't care to share that with the world. The groundfighting is something that we have only recently implemented on a regular basis, we used to do it hit and miss. This is part of our regular class curriculum and not voluntary. We feel it is an important piece of the puzzle. We have some wrestlers now and occassionaly a grappler or two training with us so there insight is valuable.

We actually train groundfighting about every third week. It is more of the principles that come into play on the ground than the techniques. We practicing defense against the take down. What happens if you get knocked down and are on your back and the attacker is still standing. We also train for what happens after you have been taken down and have to fight on the ground. I know it is cliche but most of what we train for these situations would not be allowed in a match with rules. It really is about principles not techniques on the ground.

jeffrogers The thing you have to realize is that Wing Chun principles apply to the ground as well you just have to get down there and practice applying them. Wing Chun is driven by principles not techniques. Very little adaptation is needed. The problem comes in when you start to restrict Wing Chun principles by applying rules to the game, throw the rules out the window and Wing Chun principles shine.

Never heard of New Age anything Martial Arts around here nor have I heard of putting New Age philosophies into Martial Arts ever at least in the more Traditonal Arts. Maybe some out there are taking the more modern versions of the arts and adding those philosophies. I think what some mistake as New Age philosophies are actually Martial Art philosophies many times. MAD, I was asking a question about defending one's self, ease up there tiger. And yes I know what Martial Arts mean and what they are but it is so much more than just the words you have used to explain it. You say you would have no problem with a MA if there was no New Age component, so would you be against going out and trying a traditional art to learn more about it? People who don't understand something frequently fear it or worse yet they inject things into it to fit there view of what they believe it is to demonize it. Do people ask these questions of boxing it is a Martial Art????????? If not why not???????

KWN Shouldn't people be allowed to defend themselves? Or shouldn't they be allowed to explore something from another culture that may be of interest to them? People who have problems with Martial Artists because they see it as non -Christian are really doing themselves an injustice and have a closed minded view of it. There are other things that the MA's are good for. What about doing it for the sake of your health? Tai Chi is a fantastic form of exercise as are most of the MA's why not do it for that reason? I really do not understand this whole phenomenon. I know several people who consider themselves devout Christians and have no problem training, but then I do know a few who have a problem with some of the things we do. Generally the latter are the ones who want to change the way we do things to fit their view of reality (Christianity). Bowing is one of those things. It is just that, a bow, a show of respect to the instructors and the masters who came before you and traveled along the same path on the journey.

Definitely.

What I am saying is every art has weaknesses it is up to you to work on those weaknesses. It is up to you the practitioner to practice your chosen art at all ranges and adapt to those weaknesses, find the answers within your choosen art, in many cases there is no need to go outside of your art. Unless you do that then no you are not a complete fighter, if there is such a thing.