Shorin Ryuu

If you want to leave it at that, then I can not stop you. I don't believe it is, but that's okay. I have an old vhs copy of it. I recently discovered you can order the dvd version of it online here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00006LU72/102-1190679-7367347?v=glance Only 3 left in stock, apparently. There are some other places, but they may be more expensive. It also has some footage of Kise in his younger years, which you may enjoy. I recommend it for Shorin Ryu practitioners in general. There is a lot of what I consider to be "filler" material, such as videos of kid classes doing kata and things like that, but still worth the money. Edit: I look on amazon and it says it is only 60 minutes long. The version I had was around two hours, if I remember correctly. Therefore there may be a lot missing (hopefully the filler?).

I'm about 7 feet tall. Shorinryu Sensei is roughly 9 feet tall. Crazy, isn't it? Actually, I'm around 5'11.

Ah, that explains a lot. Hmm...I've seen that funny picture of a sai being held by a farmer in the fields on Kise's website. I don't want to accuse them of doctoring a photo, but it looks really fake. Maybe it's just the angle or something... I actually trained with an instructor (Kyoshi Jeff Ader) from Kise's organization and greatly enjoyed the instruction I received with him that one year. All the same, I think it is utterly ridiculous some of them still hold on to that story. Your instructor is probably very good. But I can't buy his story about the sai...that's just a popular myth repeated over and over even by those that should know better...Even Okinawans repeat this myth. It's kind of like the stories of Minutemen snipers during the early days of the American Revolution. Sure, you had some good shooters, but a lot of them weren't that good (and some of it is the fault that their weaponry wasn't exactly state of the art when it came to accuracy). But a nice myth all the same. Hohan Soken wasn't the founder of Shorin Ryu, although he was a great master of karate. I have quite a few video clips of him doing kata and they are nice to watch. Anyway, according to the prevailing view, he trained under Nabe Matsumura who trained under Bushi Matsumura. There is some question about the dates and exact linkages with Nabe Matsumura, but it is a generally accepted story. Bushi Sokon Matsumura was the founder of Shorin Ryu and Nabe's uncle.

My take on the whole headsnap before a turn is that looking before you turn implies you are literally turning and then executing a technique. This is a rather basic interpretation of bunkai. What not looking while you turn implies is you are throwing a person. This is the "more advanced" and more common way to do it on Okinawa. There are some places in kata where your "look" is disconnected from the rest of your body movement, but they are much rarer and have a specific purpose.

I mentioned that Japanese karateka do not seem to worry about this. But from what I remember from my various times in Japan, there were a lot of places (not all) that didn't have a fourth floor. And I've spoken with many Japanese regarding the "shi" as superstition. That's all it is. Edit: Of course, you probably know more about the Japanese than I do...My point is this: almost no one at all cares about a 13th floor, but many hotels here in America don't have one. Edit2: Nevermind...

I am having trouble finding these books. Who wrote them and when were they published? And who is your master?

Yes, which books about Okinawa? And as far as the internet, it isn't the most reliable source on Okinawan history. There are some good sites, but many of them repeat the old myths and legends, usually not out of a malicious intent, but out of ignorance.

Man, this topic is still going. That's okay because it is a rather common one. I think the gut reaction of all us Okinawan karateka is the accusation that "karate is simplified kung fu". As a critically-minded person, I have to overcome this gut reaction and say "Yes, karate has lost some things in its transmission from China." I think there has always been the utmost respect for Chinese arts on Okinawa. However, I think the disconnect comes from the fact that it was not a matter of them learning or studying only what they brought back from China and nothing else. If that were the case, then the accusation would be right. A lot of them synthesized what they learned with what they already knew and even innovated concepts on their own. I think more of the differences between Chinese and Okinawan arts becomes apparent when you contrast the Internal styles with karate. But many of those same differences exist between Internal styles and External styles. However, the distinction between internal and external isn't always as clear either. I've said this before, but most of the criticisms of karate from Chinese martial artists often apply only to Japanese karate, which just takes another approach to fighting than their Okinawan counterparts. To sum it all up, the Okinawans didn't learn everything the Chinese could have taught them. But they did learn a lot and they did innovate on their own. Furthermore, many of the differences often cited tend to be more applicable to Japanese karate than Okinawan karate. Any thoughts or questions on this argument?

Which weapon are you talking about? I've said that some were farming implements, some were hidden as farming implements (maybe) and some were always weapons on Okinawa. I am curious...what research have you done (books you've read, people you've talked to) about the weapons of Okinawa? I'm not calling you out...I'm just trying to see where your argument is coming from. Edit: Ovine King, is that the nung-cha-kung (probably an inaccurate romanization perhaps?) or something else entirely? I am just curious, as my Chinese vocabulary is limited to "fortune cookie." Wait a minute...

followed by: Yes, I knew the kama was for cutting in agricultural purposes. I never said it wasn't. I was merely fooling around at the "comma" typo. The kama was used for 100s of years as a weapon, although bigger and more durable ones were used by Bushi. The bo is pretty much multi-purpose and could have evolved in any number of ways. They did, however, have records of battles where bo were being employed as early as the 1300s. It wasn't something just adapted from farm use. Yes, farmers may have easily done it, but so may have someone using a large walking staff or any number of things. Many villages had their own bo kata. Some were complex, some were only a few moves. But again, it has a long and rich history of being a weapon. As for the tonfa, the more popular story is the handle for grist mill. There are some sources which believe it was adapted from the "iron crutch" of China, a light and easily carried shield named "dong-wah" from Fujian China (John Sells). In addition, there may even be some Filipino influences as well. It is a possibility the weapon was taken and disguised as a farm implement instead of growing from one. It was still used as one, but its origin was a weapon. That is a more interesting yet still plausible argument. More so than the handle on a well, which would really only be useful if you happened to be by a well...(They just didn't walk around and carry their weapons and farm tools all day long...) The nunchucks [sic] (how that term grates my ears) probably derived from various sources. One of these is the nung-cha-kung in Fujian China. Again, already a weapon imported from China is a likely answer, although the Okinawan version is much shorter. Another popular one based on the type of "older nunchaku" made were a conversion of horse bridles and very much look like it. This makes sense as Bushi were able to have horses, and thus have horse bridles around. As far as the rice and grain flail thing...have you ever seen a grain flail? Those things bear a passing resemblence, but look vastly difference in terms of length and how you would employ them. I (as does John Sells) tend to think that was more of a "fool the Japanese" story than anything else. Even the long handled Chinese flails are shorter than grain flails... Again, there is also a theory that the Filipinos may have taught them some nunchaku. I believe perhaps a merging of all the above...minus the nunchaku. ...So yes, I have done a lot of research on the weapons, as I do practice Shorin Ryu. As such, I make it a point to dispel common myths among people that have not. The Okinawans who repeat these myths have some justification; it's a cultural and tradition thing...but the rest of us have no excuse. Edit: In my excitement, I forgot to talk about the sai...did you ever run a logic test on that story? How expensive did you think metal was on a small island? Especially a large hunk of metal required to make sai? Do you think every farmer had one? Or three, like some people insist? (you see, they had two in a hand...they would throw one and then take the other from behind their back... *groan*). Furthermore, there were variants and antecedents of the sai as a weapon in China, again, from Fujian. It was used by the royal bodyguards and the local constables. Not peasants who would poke holes in the ground...you can use wood for that, no need for costly metal... As far as the nunchaku being used to poke holes in the ground and then the rope to cover with dirt...that is also equally a myth.

Yes, let's. It is the point of a forum, anyway, isn't it? To share opposing points of view to learn from? You mentioned Goju, Shotokan, Wado and Shorin. Those are not the 4 main Okinawan styles. Those are the four main Japanese karate styles. Sort of. Shito-Ryu is usually accepted as the fourth, rather than Shorin. So it is more like: Goju, Shotokan, Wado and Shito Ryu are the 4 main Japanese styles. Even so, that isn't what you said. We will follow your trail of information... So you said "only Okinawan karate system." I corrected you on this, to which you replied: Then I mentioned Uechi Ryu, which is one of the 4 main Okinawan styles, the others being Shito and Shorin Ryu. In other words, half of the main Okinawan styles (even if there are only 4 "main" styles) do not have Naihanchi. Not to mention many of the others. To this, you answered: Yes, I believe the last line is appropriate. Obviously, you never meant Japanese styles, as you continually used the word "Okinawan", yet you cite an almost "4 main Japanese styles" framework as justification for your argument. So...again, I'm not taking this personally and I hope you aren't. I just tend not to let people get away with flawed excuses or let them continue along an incorrect line of argument. I expect others to do the same for me. If I seemed overly persistent, it is because of this. That, and I have recently been involved in many debates over controversial issues where someone would always try to weasel out of admitting their argument was wrong by citing wrong facts (which I would investigate) or trying to change the direction...so that is more of what you are seeing...

So Goju is the only one out of the four main Okinawan styles that doesn't have Naihanchi. Other than Uechi Ryu, of course...

It really does depend on your system. In my system, ideally, there is a huge distinction between 6th dan (renshi) and 7th dan (kyoshi). Of course, there are varying levels of skill among the kyoshi, but where there is correlation between grade and skill, there is a strong correlation indeed.

Dianna from http://martialarts.about.com/ informed me of a new site called Martial Hearts at http://www.martialhearts.info/. It has pretty much the same goals as my blogsite, but the page is roughly 10, 358.349 times more professional. I was thinking about hiring or asking someone to make me up a page, but if one is already made... At any rate, I highly encourage you all to check it out. I have contacted them regarding a project merger. I think it would be best so as not to duplicate effort and maximize the aid we can send to the martial arts community. Edit: I have contacted her and we have decided to merge. My site will shift to be more of a news digest and publicity generator for the project effort. Her site has a much better user interface.

That is far from being accurate. Goju isn't the only style that doesn't have it on Okinawa, or even close to being the only one.

If you're at all serious...I can ask my instructor. He's not really close friends with the author, but he knows him.

I've seen Goju Hakutsuru done by Sensei Kimo Wall at a karate camp. He taught several seminars on it, actually. That being said, I do a different version of Hakutsuru... Edit: Gee, I guess that was off-topic as I'm not a Goju Ryu guy...oh well...

Holy cow! The Okinawans invented the comma as well? Oh, that's right...I seem to recall hearing a story where a samurai and an Okinawan got into an argument. To settle matters, they decided to have a contest: Each of them would write out a grocery list and the one who could purchase all the items the quickest would win. The samurai got confused because there were no commas, but the Okinawan could quickly see where each word started and stopped, quickly defeating his samurai opponent. He then engaged in guerrila warfare against the samurai, punching through them with his pinkie finger (makiwara training). Um...don't ask where that came from...I was feeling a bit tired... At any rate, the sai was always a weapon imported from China. I don't know how people could believe such myths in the first place, but the whole story of the sai being a farming implement is now largely discredited. To me, it never made logical sense in the first place.

Actually, that doesn't sound like the reaction of a Roman Catholic Church to me. Edit: I misread. At any rate, that isn't how a Roman Catholic church would react in that situation... I still have trouble believing the church has the right information about the story.

By no means are charlatans new to the martial arts. That's just how life is.

Shi and Shichi are simply the "older" ways of saying four and seven. As mentioned, "shi" means death so there is a lot of superstition surrounding it. You won't find a 4th floor on many places in Japan, for example. So there is some popular tradition in not using it. I guess martial artists are less afraid of death, eh?

??? What? I'm just saying the guy who got tapped most likely made up some * story that the church leadership believed. That's all. I'm willing to believe the reaction would have been the same if the person who got up in his face was a female and he did something equivalent (and the woman made up some story later on).

It wouldn't surprise me if they were. It really is up to the discretion of the individual instructor. Most instructors have kata they have learned while training in other styles or under other teachers that they feel studying is worth the time.

It sounds like the leadership at the church probably has some incorrect information regarding the situation.

? First off, the majority of Goju Ryu schools don't practice Naihanchi. Some may, but those aren't considered Goju kata. The Taikyoku were made up by Funakoshi. They aren't considered Goju kata. For that matter, they are not considered Okinawan kata. I am not sure if the Goju Taikyoku is the same as the Shotokan and Japanese karate Taikyoku. It's just a common name, after all The Gekisai were made by Miyagi and Nagamine (of Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu). They are considered Goju kata.