Shorin Ryuu

I had a mountain goat give me the look over at Glacier Park when I was there. He started to saunter on towards me at which point I decided discretion was the better part of valor and gave him the right of way. He didn't mind me taking pictures, so it turned out alright.

Well, if you send me some of the poems, I MIGHT be able to translate them into English for you. Sometimes reading classical japanese in cursive is a bit hard...

My thoughts and prayers go out to all those affected. Hitting London is the same as hitting New York, in my mind. We're behind you all the way.

I know a couple of Hakutsuru (meaning White Crane) forms and training drills from several different sources. Do you have any specific questions? As mentioned, these tend to be more Okinawan versions of kata learned from China or from Chinese visiting/living on Okinawa. They tend to be even more "overt" in their Chinese origins than some of the other Okinawan kata. As far as the whole "Is it a kata or a system" question , the answer is "kata are training systems", whether talking about Passai, Hakutsuru or Naihanchi. However, the general usage is to refer to the Hakutsuru kata.

Oh, those photo were submitted and cheesily (in some cases) titled by me, hence the awfully one-sided nature of them. I greatly enjoyed my experience. I got to fulfill my geeky academic interest by watching various kata done by people of other styles. We also fiddled around with drills, bunkai, self-defense and other things. Of particular enjoyment was simply sitting down and chatting about various things (life, martial arts, individual experiences, etc.) with Good People . Even if I tended to pick on Sauzin a bit it was only out of genuine curiosity. I learned quite a bit from both Shorinryu Sensei and Sauzin. It's a nice feeling when you see for yourself in person how people can back up the knowledge they post on the forums. It was educational to see our similarities and differences, and the reasons for both. Shorinryu Sensei's hospitality was quite gracious (he flatters us even still) and I thank him for arranging all this. I kind of figured this thread would end up with all of us patting each other on the back. It's okay, we earned it. So, next time this gets suggested, I highly recommend it. That's probably the most emoticons you'll ever see me use in a post. I was saving them for a special occasion.

Really? I was always under the impression that if kicks were changed, it was usually from a front kick to a side kick rather than the other way around. Oh, and you can PM me that other difference. I don't get offended (only curious).

That's funny. Sauzin and I were discussing the exact same thing a week ago at our gathering. I'm willing to bet that the similarity may stem from varying degrees of standardization in the early days of modern karate with the Butokukai. I'm sure their certificates of rank were probably something that required standardization. Of course, as organizations began to splinter apart and new ones were formed, there were more individual styles of menjo being made. I was always under the impression they were phoenixes or something. Peacocks might be good luck or something in Asia. I remember hearing that somewhere once (too lazy to go googling).

Thanks guys. I thought it was a great read myself! A lot of it really summed up what I thought about karate back then (and still do).

Sure, if you start at the age of five or six, have self-discipline instilled early on and have a great instructor, you will be great at whatever it is you are doing. Those factors don't necessarily converge every time. I've met some people that have been doing martial arts since they were only this tall *holds hand up pretty low* and they weren't terribly impressive. And then there were some who I've met or heard about that were very impressive. As some people mentioned, starting at a later age allows you to understand things more critically when you are first exposed to them (if you have that kind of mentality, anyway). It is the rare child who can do so. For more "gymnastic" kinds of endeavors, starting young is more ideal simply for the physical formation required. In terms of combative training however, you can look at a lot of the "old masters" of karate and many of them didn't start until their teens. There are some things like makiwara training you shouldn't really start until you're around 16 anyway. Do I wish I had the opportunity to start when I was younger? Yes. I didn't start martial arts until I was 17. Do I lose sleep over it? Never. Let's say you start at age 18 and take it for 6 years. I can guarantee you in most cases you will be far, far superior to someone who is 16 and has taken it for 10 years. Most of those earlier years are simply a wash in terms of pure combative training. In the long run, having more years of experience (spent properly) will always be better. There are always some things which simply require time to develop. However, the quality of your years spent will always trump simple experience. There is a vast difference between merely training on one hand and actually bettering yourself on the other. There are two basic things you can do. You can always have it in the back (or front) of your mind that you would have been X amount better if only you started Y amount of time earlier. Or, you can train hard, train smart, and get better so much it becomes a moot point. I'm a firm believer in the ability of one to continually better him or herself no matter what they faced or what they could've/would've/should've done. I wish I started earlier. I wish I never tore my ACL. But you know what? I don't care. I'm going to get better and that's all that matters.

You are correct. Miyagi Chojun came up with the name and the formal parts of the system while Higaonna Kanryo was the one who taught him a lot of what he knew.

I don't see anything wrong with getting people acquainted with weapons early on in their training. You have to remember there are styles out there that teach solely weapons, meaning people can become highly skilled in weaponry without having extensive empty hand training. If anything, it will aid their development in empty hand training.

Master Jules is another Goju Ryu guy. He's posted a lot on some older topics about it.

This post was originally published as an article in a dedicated KarateForums.com Articles section, which is no longer online. After the section was closed, this article was most to the most appropriate forum in our community. "In the old days we trained at Karate as a martial art, but now they train at Karate as a gymnastic sport. I think we must avoid treating Karate as a sport - it must be a martial art at all times!" - Chibana Chosin (1885 - 1969) I always have mixed feelings when I hear the word traditional in conjunction with Karate. There is the respect I have for many traditional training methods, such as kata. There is also just the sense of, well, tradition, that evokes certain notions in the mind. I don't mean the tradition of hanging up stockings over the fireplace during the Christmas season or hiding eggs so that your children have to earn their breakfast for a change by finding them on Easter morning, but you all know what I do mean. Traditional values like respect, humility and self control. Further still, I still use the word "traditional" to describe what I do, mainly because of the perspective and the general idea that it purveys to who my audience is. It certainly denotes to the reader that I do not do more "reality based martial arts" or "forge myself in the furnace of the ring." Depending on your viewpoint, it may also suggest I don't "waste my time with sport Karate." Whatever you view it as, the word "traditional" is convenient in discussion. And then, there's the part of me that wants to jump up and down with a bullhorn and a banner, announcing that as it relates to Karate, very little of what most people see as "traditional" is, in fact, traditional at all. Now, now, put away the ropes and the torches (and you with the pitchfork, let's just say it was meant to stick into hay, not bored writers on Internet forums). There have been countless posts, both by me and others, pointing out how relatively new the dan/kyu and belt system is in traditional martial arts. About how in the oft quoted "old days", people trained in what basically amounted in a loin cloth and belts were made to hold your gi closed (no, not hold your pants up, do you ever think of the physics of that? If people used obi to hold their pants up, there'd be a lot more hanging in the breeze than grandma's freshly washed laundry). There have also been a few posts, quite a bit of them mine, that address the extremely recent nature of the solidification of styles (the ryu system) on Okinawa. I haven't seen too many posts on what strikes at the issue here. I've hinted, cajoled and directly stated it from time to time. I have also seen others post something along those lines as well, but not very often. Unfortunately, what I do see is a rather large misconception on what "traditional Karate" actually is and what it is we do. I think the largest part of this is confusing what is "traditional Karate" and what is "traditional behavior patterns of Confucian influenced societies." The bowing and the respect paid to the sensei and superiors, the sense of group unity, the notion of the transmission of certain practices, these are obviously not exclusive to Karate. Nor are the values of being a "team player", humility and self control. You can find as much in Japan on the Hanshin Tigers baseball team or the Thursday evening Ladies' Ikebana (flower arranging) Club. These are people that have (although with much less emphasis nowadays) a ceremony dedicated to drinking tea, for heavens sake. My perhaps flippant treatment of this is simply to help put things in perspective. The Japanese response to Okinawan Karate's introduction to the mainstream (first half of the 20th century) was quite condescending. They viewed it as incomplete. Whatever it's combative capabilities, there was no established curriculum, no concerted effort towards the indoctrination of spiritual and self well being. They probably didn't know which they thought was worse, the lack of an established ryu system or the archaic teaching methods that didn't necessarily lend themselves to being taught to large masses. This ushered in a large host of changes into Karate. The wearing of gi. The use of a training hall with those lovely wooden floors. The dan/kyu system. The creation of established ryu that taught one person's method of doing things. The perception that training in more than one ryu as being disloyal, undedicated and unscrupulous. Kata became more rigid, more formalized, more symmetrical in orientation, whether that meant in pattern or body structure. Many people did go about merely copying the many moves perfectly, without knowing the deeper meaning behind them. Rigid adherence to a "count" totally disrupted the timing of the kata and was more of a tool for teaching the kata than for learning it. But that wasn't always the case. If anything, in traditional Okinawan Karate, at least and I'm sure the same goes for true traditional Chinese boxing, combative training was always tailored towards the individual. Sure, they were given certain drills and things to do, but everyone had their own way of doing them. You look at all the Karate masters on Okinawa and what did they do? They didn't obstinately learn just one thing. They traveled all over Okinawa, learning different ways of doing things. Maybe one person was famous for his bo techniques. They went to his place and trained. Another was perhaps famous for kicking, and one for punching. Odds are, they're probably friends and maybe traded students with each other. They traveled to "mainland" Japan, China and Taiwan. They took things they liked and discarded things they didn't like. So as far as counting in Japanese and using Japanese terms (that's only because they spoke Japanese... of course, the Okinawans spoke Okinawan), bowing, wearing gi, the belt system, the ryu "style" system, all of that isn't exactly what truly makes up traditional Karate. So, what is? Kata. In my mind, that is one of the few things truly traditional in "traditional Karate" in terms of what has been part of the training for over 105 years. I could perhaps continue my discursive dissent with the widely held views of many people. However, I will limit it to a more pertinent topic, which to put it elegantly, really gets my goat. I have said this before, and so have others, to their credit. But this time, I'm going to say it. Here goes: Most of the disparaging of traditional Karate is in my mind, the product of Bruce Lee's denigration of what he viewed as uncritical copying of technique to create mindless robots that had nary a free thought of their own, let alone the ability to win a fight. But I'll let you in on a deep secret. Bruce Lee and I, we really think alike. Me, the defender of "traditional Karate" and one who, to say the least, did not hold it in high regard, have the same view. Unfortunately, what I think Bruce Lee missed is the generalizations he made only apply if you are guilty of what he said never to do and that is be obsessed with techniques. But, I'll stop picking on Bruce Lee. He was a good fighter. In my opinion, not great and certainly not the greatest, but he did a lot for the martial arts community in terms of popularity. He definitely had a work ethic that could probably somehow fuel the electricity of a small rural town during winter. And like I said, he and I think alike. We like the idea that the only limit you have is what you place on yourself. Not quite what Nietzche was saying, but more like what Immanuel Kant was saying. Don't sell humanity short, because we have unlimited potential. Now, before I take this on a more philosophical bent, let me get to the whole reason I bothered to bring Bruce Lee up at all. We also both agree you need to have an open mind and you shouldn't be hung up on techniques and learn principles instead. If anything, that's the principle of JKD. My beef with him is that concept isn't anything new. And this is where I actually tie everything together. Let me start by rebutting this statement: "Lots of people who are great at kata cannot translate it in real situations." I answer this statement in two ways. The first is that what many people's idea of being "great at kata" is is usually wrong. There are many people who are excellent athletes who can kick high, fast and move real quick. Often times, however, they learn kata that only teaches them to be in great physical shape, rather than being a great fighter. This is a drawback on many people blindly accepting kata that has poor mechanics and thinking it is useful. The other way is that many people who are "great" at kata are just "great mirrors." You can teach a monkey to mimic a pattern. A person can mimic the looks of even a practical kata, but unless they actually concentrate on learning the "why" instead of the "what", they will never become good fighters. Most people I've trained with or discussed with divide their training into "traditional kata" and "the useful stuff." With that mindset (and if they're taught to divide it, the kata probably is bad anyway), they'd never be able to gain anything from the kata, even if it was worth knowing. I've met many "kata" collectors who can show me the Shotokan version of one form followed by the Wado Ryu version. I ask them why they do a certain movement and I rarely get any response better than "I'm punching" or "I'm blocking" or "It's just tradition." For these people, the critics are right. Kata was a waste of their time... but it should not have been. The focal point is that kata is a training method, a tool. Just like many things in life, "you get out of it what you put in". Unfortunately, if you don't put effort in it properly, you won't get much out of it, either. And this brings me to the point that I have been trying to promote ever since you all became unlucky and I found this community. Kata and drills, the staple of traditional Karate, are meant to teach you some techniques, but more importantly, they are supposed to teach you PRINCIPLES. My caps lock key is actually not stuck, but I harp on that for a reason. There is too much of an emphasis on techniques by many people, some traditionalists (none very experienced traditional martial artists that I've encountered) and many non traditionalists. As the non traditionalists argue, a technique may not work in a "real fight" (ironic in and of itself as it often is meant to mean the sports arena, whether that is Taekwondo, the wrestling mat or UFC). However, you train to gain the understanding of the "why" behind it. Any real fight is often dirty, sloppy and fast. Techniques often don't work out quite the way they do in kata or partner drills. Unless you know the principles firm enough, through a combination of kata (pure theory combined with complete execution) and drills (technique compromised by real world limitations), you're right. The defender does not have to "play by the rules". If you've trained correctly and learned principles, you will make him regret he ever came to the table because you can adapt. So what does this have to do with the inability of traditional Karate practitioners to adapt? Oh, nothing much, except that the notion of non adapting, unchanging traditional Karate practitioners is not the heart of what traditional Karate is. Granted, there are some things that are established as "the way" to do things, but even that changes from year to year and is only for the purposes of preservation for future transmission (kata being the most obvious example). Nowadays we put Karate masters on the spot by asking "what is the official way to do the kata?" We have them make videos or ask how they "count" a certain kata. But in the old days, they weren't necessarily always as precise in their hand placement or demanding that everyone look exactly the same. Because everyone's body is different, the kata will look different. Maybe the emphasis isn't on placing one hand with the fingers of one hand touching the wrist, maybe the emphasis was placed on crossing your hands in whatever manner you can without having to rotate the body, which means the hands will be in a slightly different position for every body type. But still, you learn the "official" way of doing kata. But as you progress, you develop your own way of doing it, the way that suits you the best. You might argue that the act of learning kata in and of itself is a sort of limitation, but that is an underestimation of the act of learning kata itself (not to mention the myriad of other training methods that Karateka do in addition to kata). In short, the only thing really traditional with Karate is the kata. Most everything else, from teaching en masse to wearing a belt and gi, to rigid adherence to form, is new. The purpose of the kata was self defense and/or training for self defense, as was the purpose of traditional Karate. Kata isn't necessarily always set in stone (maybe jello, perhaps), but getting rid of kata would get rid of that which defines traditional Karate. And this is why I believe changing with the times isn't exactly necessary. And the reason for that, is because the training method of kata itself, despite the commonly held view to the contrary, is not a rigid, locked, unadapting method of training. It is only that way if you, as the individual who is training, is rigid, locked and unadapting. So maybe when people that go on about the metaphysical and spiritual glories of the kata are right. In this sense, the kata truly is the representation of yourself. Respectfully Submitted, Shorin "Sometimes I Even Train Instead of Ranting on KarateForums.com" Ryuu

I think you and I are a bit more well-equipped to handle these injuries. I've noticed especially how my ankles have grown much stronger. Rolls and sprains specifically, while painful, have not affected me much. A month or so ago I was running 4 miles and at the end of the first mile, my foot made a funny landing off of some crumbly ground and was rolled terribly (we're talking a 90 degree angle here). I didn't even stop but kept going at the same pace (pretty fast). It hurt at first, but the continual action and loose running helped it loosen up a bit and I was totally fine, even the next day. Of course, I tried using the invincibility phenomenon in trying to defeat my ACL tear. You saw how well that worked out...I had to resort to my physical therapy phenomenon... At any rate, I'm a strong believer in the notion of continual physical training will leave you less vulnerable to injuries. I think repeated training while barefoot (i.e. karate) forces your body to become stronger as it does not rely on the support provided by a shoe. I've always had a pretty high pain tolerance. Like I've always said, it's simply a matter of recognizing pain for what it is and not letting it dictate your response if it is merely pain. If it is serious injury, of course your body is trying to tell you something. If it is telling you your body is not supposed to move in a certain way, then you should listen. But if it is really only just pain then you shouldn't pay too much attention to those pesky nerve impulses. P.S. You ever notice how often it is people like us get injured OUTSIDE of martial arts rather than because of it? Consequently, it is never a cool story when someone asks you how you got injured...

My only criticism is you were supposed to discuss "founding styles" of karate from Okinawa. If you mean "founding" in a historical sense you really would have to limit yourself as someone mentioned to a brief discussion of family styles, and then Shuri, Tomari and Naha te. Stuff like Shito Ryu, although it tries to combine lots of both Naha and Shuri te kata in their curriculum and things, are not "founding styles", historically speaking. I'm not talking about merits of any styles, just the "founding" nature of them. Which goes back to the same family styles, Shuri, Tomari and Naha. Um, being a biased Shorin Ryu guy, I'd have to say it isn't just a "linear" style. We have a lot of tight circles (and some large or obvious ones). I think there are better ways of describing the differences between, say Shuri Te and Naha Te than that. Yes, I rambled. I'm extremely tired right now.

I got my commision via the Air Force Academy. The unarmed combat classes we took while attending there were two 8 lesson courses of rather laughable depth, content and practicality. As freshmen we were required to either do boxing or wrestling. Many people (like me) did intramural boxing as well (which I liked and I was on the boxing team my freshmen year...I didn't keep up with it because if I kept cutting weight I'd probably disappear). Our basic training (different from the rest of the Air Force) was more just your usual rifle runs, umpteen number of pushups, up-downs, situps, obstacle courses, and many sadistic and interesting exercises. I was already in excellent shape, but basic training kept me in shape (the fact that it was a mile-and-a-half above sea level helped) as did the haze of freshman year. But yes, in terms of martial arts, it isn't something the Air Force really focuses on...Ditto on the conclusions above.

Hm...guess I do it the way Nakazato does it. For Gojushiho, I do a step and then a slide (heel-toe shuffle). I've seen people do it varying ways in my system. The only kicks I do in pinan yondan are mae geri except for the knee kick towards the end. What pray tell is a tetsuie? I'm not familiar with that term. The odds are, we may have that technique...I just don't use terms that often...

Well, once I caught this 30 pound northern pike. But it got away.

Oh, no worries...I was using a more Catholic definition of meat, as in "fish and tofu" were not included in the definition. Perhaps I should say I eat fish and tofu on a regular basis. When I think meat, I think of a big juicy steak, a burger or a side of ribs!

I'm not a vegetarian, but I don't eat meat very often (usually fish or tofu.). All the same, meat and potatoes every now and then sounds good to me. No worries about dietary stuff. Dancing sounds like fun, especially after the paramedics pull me off the floor because they think I'm having a siezure. I'm not a big drinker, but one or two couldn't hurt (much). Yeah, I figure there's no need to do any unecessary exertion workouts. I'm not too keen on traveling the country to exercise...I can do that at my house.

Well I'll be darned. I always pictured you as some sort of older guy. Not quite an old geezer like Shorinryu Sensei who needs a walker to cross the dojo floor to whack me, but not a young-un like myself either. Um, now I'M still invited, right?

Just one week and a day till I'm on a jet plane from North Carolina (where I will be seeing a few posters from here, apparently) to Montana. I look forward to meeting Shorinryu Sensei and Sauzin...and having them show me how much experience always trumps youth and exuberance... At any rate, it looks like it will be a fun time. I'm sure I will impress them with my ability to...um...talk big, or something. I hope you all are looking forward to pictures of me in Stars and Stripes gi wielding a toothpick bo in one hand and nunchuks in the other. Bonus points for a headband, even.

I hear it is quite effective against multiple enemies, preferrably droplet-sized ones. You have to ensure there are no holes in your defense, otherwise they will slip right on through and rain blows all over you. Not a pretty sight when their main tactic is task-saturation. Um... Humor aside, are we talking a modern construction or is this something used "back in the old days"? Furthermore, is this something designed specifically for it (unlikely) or just something easily improvised (probably)?

As a matter of fact I am. The other one was Skeptic2004. I've been training with Sam Ahtye in San Francisco since then, and he's been diligently trying to knock out a lot of my bad habits I've let creep in. It certainly is refreshing to see this growth of Shorinkan posters here just in the last few months.

Yeah...I got the same impression when I visited there last summer. I noticed how...what's the word...desensitized...many of the students were by having Kyoshi Perry, Estes and Roberts so close to one another. I commented to Skeptic2004 when we were there how some students probably didn't realize how fortunate they were. All in all, I think Skeptic2004 is merely pointing out a prevalent trend in the martial arts. All too often people are held on some pedestal of perfection and spoken of in breathless, awe-struck tones. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that the majority of those could hand my you-know-what to me on a plate, but I digress... I think in some cases people tend to ask less questions because it will end up causing a hurtin' after being demonstrated on. I tend to ask because I like feeling the technique rather than just observing. Needless to say, I get thrown around a bit at times. The other reason is if they are around all the time, the sense of "urgency" isn't necessarily there, as you can ask them questions at your leisure. Lastly, a great deal of my respect for Kyoshi Perry comes not from his excellent martial arts and military career, but just the generosity and down-to-earth goodness he showed to me and Skeptic2004 when we visited his place last year.