LionsDen

This topic is mostly meant to help out the occasional newbie to karate that finds this forum. People with less than 2 years training. Fairly arbitrary but I feel past 2 years you’ve either already decided what you’re learning is questionable and left or you’re already committed fully to what you’ve been learning. I’d say my biggest red flag is applications that not only involve grabbing a punch with your hand, but are almost solely predicated on you grabbing that punch with your hand. The next one is complexity. How many counters are you being taught to do after a single strike, or how many movements are required for you to get from stopping a strike or take down from being successful, to whatever counter you’re being taught. If what you’re learning can’t be broken down into 4 maybe 5 simple easy steps, it’s probably too complex. For example an o Soto geri can be effectively taught in roughly 5 steps. How much precision is needed for an application to be successful? If you have to hit a very specific 1”x1” spot on someone’s arm or leg, or even torso or head for the application to be effective it’s probably not worth spending too much time trying to learn because that level of precision is only really realistic if someone is standing stilll, and if they’re standing still do you really need to be karateing them?

Thats a fair point! I also agreed with your point above about the variety of topics you can easily access on a platform such as facebook. Strikes me as a little like the chicken and the egg scenario: the more posts / active posters then the more people will be interested in participating and the more frequently people will post. This will then lead to more people becoming active and posting more etc. I have noticed though that a lot more posts get views than replies. As a simple example i had posted a message in the gear section with a question i had on Isami gi's and it has been viewed 70+ times but not a single reply Also there’s a forum I normally frequent that doesn’t seem to have a lot of active members, but those members themselves are very active. Part of the issue here is, with karate there isn’t often much new to talk about and discuss. Maybe a new karate youtube channel like karate culture or karate combat now and then, and regular content from established karate content creators, but I’m sure depending on the age of this website, ‘movement X from Y kata should be interpreted as Z application in the real world’ has been talked to death for just about any movement of any common kata, so up to a certain point what is there new to say on a forum like this? The view to reply ratio will likely depend on familiarity, I’ve never heard of isami, and I posted about 3d printers yesterday, no clue right now how many views but no replies since it’s kind of a niche topic.

Thats a fair point! I also agreed with your point above about the variety of topics you can easily access on a platform such as facebook. Strikes me as a little like the chicken and the egg scenario: the more posts / active posters then the more people will be interested in participating and the more frequently people will post. This will then lead to more people becoming active and posting more etc. I have noticed though that a lot more posts get views than replies. As a simple example i had posted a message in the gear section with a question i had on Isami gi's and it has been viewed 70+ times but not a single reply The view to reply ratio will likely depend on familiarity, I’ve never heard of isami, and I posted about 3d printers yesterday, no clue right now how many views but no replies since it’s kind of a niche topic.

And this is why forums are largely dead. I made my last post in the topic at 10am and 10 hours later no replies.

I play warhammer 40k and got a printer because I wanted to make models for my own war game, and have since printed my own very basic designs, and terrain for 40k. The technology of 3D printing is ridiculous on so many levels. For $300ish I am able to get into small scale professional production. The potential for this tech to solve very serious issues (like with soace shuttle and ISS issue resolution) is amazing but it’s now cheap enough that any middle class person can easily afford a solid filament printer and here I am using it to make toy boats, and obstacles for my little plastic army men to fight around…

most people don’t care about the delay and want immediacy, and that was the appeal of message boards before social media…they were the most immediate way to converse with large numbers of people on a specific topic at the timeA thriving message board is roughly as quick as a thriving social media site. The difference is on FB, I can quickly go between karate, and warhammer, and gun groups, or just mindlessly scroll through new info, while waiting for replies to my posts and have notifications for all those replies in one place.

Sinking down into a horse stance and hitting a 'downed enemy' seems the wrong application of a technique to me . A few times I have been in a grapple, or half way through a lock or take down, the person is 'down there' (say NEAR the ground , but not 'downed' ) and its simply natural to stand firm and wide ( 'horse' ) and 'sink' down with an elbow strike . 'Setting' into cat stance seems strange to me - yet 'moving' ( 'snapping' actually ) back into a cat stance from a deep 'front stance ' can be a very good supplementary technique ( as in the first 'rear move' of the first Pinan kata ..... which we probably do different to everyone else as well ) Doing a 'wrong' move or bunkai will not make much sense or work . But thats my issue , doesnt seem to matter .... people will just keep on practicing it over and over , and teaching it to others to practice over and over . Which is fine , IF your sport is technical accurate reproduction of anothe'rs movements . or perhaps it’s an inelegant solo representation of ground and pound. Knee on belly KC style. Best I got for how to interpret it as striking a downed opponent

you might never punch a downed opponent by your feet but have you ever thought of the movement in a grappling context? Like say pulling and pushing someone down?I definitely don’t take it for granted that others think about karate the way I do. Even in my own organization I’m unique in my approach, much less my experience interacting with the wider karate community online. I used to love the karate culture FB page, then it got pretty big (by karate page standards) and a bunch people who had clearly never even had a sparring session with moderate power began posting…don’t remember his name but one was a major fraud with self published books talking about energy, and sharing videos of him demonstrating how defend against someone swinging a stick like object at your head (his partner used a bokken) where he simply just caught it with one hand and pulled it from their two handed grip lol.

Maybe I’m just arrogant, but imho these sort of interpretations of kata are the wrong ways to be interpreted. Foot work and stances should not be directly correlated to hands/arms in a ‘feet do X, while hands do Y.’ Manner. It’s a much too rigid structure. Foot work teaches movement, hands teach techniques. It’s up to us each practice techniques with different footwork and stances, and we must understand that stances in most situations are only engaged very briefly and transitionary, and should not be thought of as something that needs to be held for a prolonged time period to count as ‘doing a stance’

and the militaries that have people teaching with no combat experience tend to be trash at war when they finally get a taste of it….there’s a pretty good example of that going on right now…I’ve never seen a boxing coach who didn’t have at least a few fights/smokers on their record. How successful are those coaches? angelo dundee never fought, he was ali's coach terry edwards never fought, yet was an excellent coach cus demato, tysons coach, 0-2 record there are many others who either never fought or werent very good, but knew the mechanics of fighting at a higher level than most actual fighters. as far as the military is concerned, most of the leaders come from officer candidate school and other leadership courses/schools within the military. before the middle eastern conflicts the US military had reached a point where most leaders had not seen any combat, yet we were still one of the greatest militaries in the world. even now there are many, many, leaders within our own units who have not seen war. yet are fully capable of leading and teaching the units they command. How many other great fighters did they "produce?" When you get into the professional levels of competition, it's hard to tell which coaches are good, and which ones are made to look good by the talent of their athletes. this is true, would Ali have been as good or better with a different coach?, would Tyson?. that is something we may never know. every coach brings something different to the table. sometimes something so simple that another may not bring that may make all the difference in the world to that one fighter as an individual. i heard someone quote a statement from an old "master" once that most never really consider fully. but have seen it come to be a gamechanger more than once through my years in this game. the quote is, "move, just move. if you stop your dead", everyone always wants to break down the movements of Kata, or what is a block and what is a punch, or how do you transition from this to this, etc.... but ive seen point fighters and sport karate fighters win real fights far more often than someone who gets caught up in all the technical stuff, why? because they knew how to move. how to keep the opponent off balance and on the defense... this isnt rocket science guys, the ones who can relax and see what is in front of them and react accordingly are the ones who will be ahead of the game, those who freeze, become stagnant or panic will always be behind and playing catch-up., good coaches, teachers, instructors in any field who can teach that and make their students see the big picture are always the ones who have a higher success rate. and how does one get past the freeze reaction if it’s their natural reaction? There’s really only one way, and even that isn’t guaranteed.practice, and then practice more..... spar, and then spar more..... why do you study karate? how often do you attend class? ive seen some people say "im just not good at this, yet they only go to class twice a week. 2 hours per week and then they wonder why they arent getting good or learning faster. you get what you put into anything in life. sometimes to get better or learn something you have to force yourself out of your comfort zone. blaming the instructor, (in anything) will not help if you are not trusting them or giving 100% yourself. not being able to leave that comfort zone or being afraid is on the student. im saying that in regards to students who want to learn self defense but arent willing to spar or are afraid to, ive seen that with multiple students through the years. the truth is, that if you want to learn to defend yourself you had better at some point know how it feels to get hit in the face...lol...not trying to be harsh or sound mean, but its self defense you are learning. if and when it comes down to using it you should be prepared to be hurt and know how it feels to work through it. theres a Mike tyson quote that says "everyone has a plan, until they get punched in the face". that was before his fight with Holyfield, he went on to say when people get hit they freeze. unfortunatley for Tyson, holyfield knew what it was like to get hit and didnt freeze...lol... when i was younger before my enlistment i trained/taught 3 days a week for a minimum of 7 hours a week.3 days a week should be the minimum for anyone seeking anything more than just an exercise class. i wrestled through junior high and highschool while also going to the dojo 5 days a week and fighting on the sport circuit when ever possible. the wrestling complimented the karate as far as cardio and balance while the karate complemented wrestling in getting hit and "seeing" body posture and movements. as well as other ways to helping each other. by the way, i wasnt meaning "you" in particular in my previous posts examples, sorry if it seemed that way and i apologize if it may have offended you or made you feel I was putting you on the spot. sorry. wasnt meant that way. my point was that anyone should ask themselves what it is they want out of whatever activity or path they are on, and then ask themselves are they really giving the activity their utmost, their full attention, 100% or are they just taking the easy route and then complaining about the results. you would be surprised at how often that is the case. no matter how good an instructor is or how good a style is, how good a student becomes will depend on how good that student wants to become and how much effort and dedication they put into it. if someone is wanting to learn real self defense they have to be all in in order to get pass that freezing up stage. someone can take all the classes and read every book out there but if they have never sparred or been hit they will still be a beginner in that first fight. and that is with anything, just using self defense cause thats where we are. but as another example, when younger and into my early twenties i was terrified of public speaking, or being "in the spotlight" if you will. performing kata in tournaments helped bring me out a little and then as an adult i went into sales after leaving the military. i had to force myself out of my comfort zone and learn to give seminars and demonstrations, as well as how to approach and carry a conversation with new clients and managers. the only way to get passed the freeze up in any situation is to practice and overcome that fear. no offense taken. I’m a grown man who has used his karate in a real fight multiple times by any definition of the word. I’m very comfortable in my experience, and am happy to answer any level of questions about the manner and methods I acquired said knowledge and experience.

I have seen Mr Nishihira 'back up ' .... it goes like this ( a 'self defense' thing ) ; 1. person takes a swing at him , he throws hands up and steps back out of range ; " No no , I no fight ! " 2. they take another swing , he steps back, throws arms up again ; " No! I no fight ! " 3. they take another swing , he goes to step back again, throws arms up but catches the punch in both hands ( like a clap ) , angles to side , slides front foot forward , seizes their wrist with one hand and the other slides up the inside of their arm to 'nukite' in the throat . - 2 warnings , strike 3 and your 'out' . Another one I have seen is a step back, seize the punch and twist the wrist outward . I dont particularly like it .... hard to do unless the other does a straight punch and then leaves it hanging out there in the air ..... some do that in training , but not the 'street wise' . are there videos of these demos? I’d really be interested in seeing the speed and level of intensity his partner uses for them.

and the militaries that have people teaching with no combat experience tend to be trash at war when they finally get a taste of it….there’s a pretty good example of that going on right now…I’ve never seen a boxing coach who didn’t have at least a few fights/smokers on their record. How successful are those coaches? angelo dundee never fought, he was ali's coach terry edwards never fought, yet was an excellent coach cus demato, tysons coach, 0-2 record there are many others who either never fought or werent very good, but knew the mechanics of fighting at a higher level than most actual fighters. as far as the military is concerned, most of the leaders come from officer candidate school and other leadership courses/schools within the military. before the middle eastern conflicts the US military had reached a point where most leaders had not seen any combat, yet we were still one of the greatest militaries in the world. even now there are many, many, leaders within our own units who have not seen war. yet are fully capable of leading and teaching the units they command. How many other great fighters did they "produce?" When you get into the professional levels of competition, it's hard to tell which coaches are good, and which ones are made to look good by the talent of their athletes. this is true, would Ali have been as good or better with a different coach?, would Tyson?. that is something we may never know. every coach brings something different to the table. sometimes something so simple that another may not bring that may make all the difference in the world to that one fighter as an individual. i heard someone quote a statement from an old "master" once that most never really consider fully. but have seen it come to be a gamechanger more than once through my years in this game. the quote is, "move, just move. if you stop your dead", everyone always wants to break down the movements of Kata, or what is a block and what is a punch, or how do you transition from this to this, etc.... but ive seen point fighters and sport karate fighters win real fights far more often than someone who gets caught up in all the technical stuff, why? because they knew how to move. how to keep the opponent off balance and on the defense... this isnt rocket science guys, the ones who can relax and see what is in front of them and react accordingly are the ones who will be ahead of the game, those who freeze, become stagnant or panic will always be behind and playing catch-up., good coaches, teachers, instructors in any field who can teach that and make their students see the big picture are always the ones who have a higher success rate. and how does one get past the freeze reaction if it’s their natural reaction? There’s really only one way, and even that isn’t guaranteed.practice, and then practice more..... spar, and then spar more..... why do you study karate? how often do you attend class? ive seen some people say "im just not good at this, yet they only go to class twice a week. 2 hours per week and then they wonder why they arent getting good or learning faster. you get what you put into anything in life. sometimes to get better or learn something you have to force yourself out of your comfort zone. blaming the instructor, (in anything) will not help if you are not trusting them or giving 100% yourself. not being able to leave that comfort zone or being afraid is on the student. im saying that in regards to students who want to learn self defense but arent willing to spar or are afraid to, ive seen that with multiple students through the years. the truth is, that if you want to learn to defend yourself you had better at some point know how it feels to get hit in the face...lol...not trying to be harsh or sound mean, but its self defense you are learning. if and when it comes down to using it you should be prepared to be hurt and know how it feels to work through it. theres a Mike tyson quote that says "everyone has a plan, until they get punched in the face". that was before his fight with Holyfield, he went on to say when people get hit they freeze. unfortunatley for Tyson, holyfield knew what it was like to get hit and didnt freeze...lol... when i was younger before my enlistment i trained/taught 3 days a week for a minimum of 7 hours a week.

and the militaries that have people teaching with no combat experience tend to be trash at war when they finally get a taste of it….there’s a pretty good example of that going on right now…I’ve never seen a boxing coach who didn’t have at least a few fights/smokers on their record. How successful are those coaches? angelo dundee never fought, he was ali's coach terry edwards never fought, yet was an excellent coach cus demato, tysons coach, 0-2 record there are many others who either never fought or werent very good, but knew the mechanics of fighting at a higher level than most actual fighters. as far as the military is concerned, most of the leaders come from officer candidate school and other leadership courses/schools within the military. before the middle eastern conflicts the US military had reached a point where most leaders had not seen any combat, yet we were still one of the greatest militaries in the world. even now there are many, many, leaders within our own units who have not seen war. yet are fully capable of leading and teaching the units they command. How many other great fighters did they "produce?" When you get into the professional levels of competition, it's hard to tell which coaches are good, and which ones are made to look good by the talent of their athletes. this is true, would Ali have been as good or better with a different coach?, would Tyson?. that is something we may never know. every coach brings something different to the table. sometimes something so simple that another may not bring that may make all the difference in the world to that one fighter as an individual. i heard someone quote a statement from an old "master" once that most never really consider fully. but have seen it come to be a gamechanger more than once through my years in this game. the quote is, "move, just move. if you stop your dead", everyone always wants to break down the movements of Kata, or what is a block and what is a punch, or how do you transition from this to this, etc.... but ive seen point fighters and sport karate fighters win real fights far more often than someone who gets caught up in all the technical stuff, why? because they knew how to move. how to keep the opponent off balance and on the defense... this isnt rocket science guys, the ones who can relax and see what is in front of them and react accordingly are the ones who will be ahead of the game, those who freeze, become stagnant or panic will always be behind and playing catch-up., good coaches, teachers, instructors in any field who can teach that and make their students see the big picture are always the ones who have a higher success rate. and how does one get past the freeze reaction if it’s their natural reaction? There’s really only one way, and even that isn’t guaranteed.

I experiment and test things out. If it doesn’t make sense in a striking context I move on to thinking about it in the context of standing grappling. Then I find someone like my mom, who also trains (though she’s not very good tbh) if she can reliably prevent me from doing a technique with the movement, then obviously I need to rethink what the movement is. If i can reliably do it to her I move on to someone better at martial arts, or someone just bigger and/or stronger.

Also the wide spread teaching of Uke techniques as blocks is a perfect example of why people without actual experience shouldn’t be trying to teach people how to fight. Caveats apply here and there, like with boxing back in the day, sparring was often about as full contact as an actual match, and when only one generation or so from someone who knows what they’re doing.

not to be rude, but that description of what a mawasha-uke is and how to use it, is a big oof.

The whole system of applying them is inefficient - which seems all about doing things in a very specific way and form - ie. practicing 'karate sport' - even though the movements may be inefficient and awkward . Uki actually means 'to sweep aside' which seems the opposite of 'block ' . In many cases that is exactly what we are doing ; sweeping aside an attack ( while evading and 'stinging' at the same time . - 'sting' , strike 'funny bone' or wrist LU8 etc ..... 'weak point ' ) Evade/sweep aside/ sting , control/take down , 'finish' . One of the biggest differences I have noted is in 'shuto ' , many seem to do it like some type of 'karate chop' . Its actually ( well, in my style) a very subtle controlling and drawing in and twisting /catching 'hand spiral' developed from (or visa versa ) a classical hand movement in Okinawan dance . - it works best against a straight punch, but on one occasion I managed to apply it to a kick boxer who attacked with a wild circular 'hay maker' punch . the word isn’t uki its uke, which according to enkamp is a shortening of the word ‘ukeru’ at least I think that’s how it’s spelled, which means to receive.

For example look at shisochin. There’s those weird movements that most teach as blocks but I’ve been working on experiment with them as a way breaking a clinch, and leading into an armlock, or armbar takedown

By and large I believe they’re grappling techniques. Frames, limb manipulations, get aways, and possibly even submissions. Anything that isn’t clearly a strike in my opinion is related to grappling in some way. It’s just an issue of figuring out those lost applications. Or ‘secret’ applications if that makes one feel better about it.

Also have you ever noticed how inefficient Uke techniques are for blocking?

Because they’re not blocks. They’re attacks. Karate doesn’t teach any actual blocks. Most of, if not all of the ‘Uke’ techniques are grappling techniques. Kihon is a form of practice that was created at the same time or after grappling was removed from karate when being taught to school children. After all a black eye or bloody nose was more desirable than a broken limb or potentially dying because another kid choked you too hard. Similarly you’ll see Uke techniques going backwards in modern(or more modern kata. Basically every kata created after 1900 or so) See iain Abernathy, and Jesse enkamp videos and blogs for more information on that subject.

don’t know what professors you’ve delt with, but all of mine have actually done the stuff they teach.Same with my gf… Criminal justice majors who have never done anything within the justice system, like law enforcement and such. But teach courses on such subjects as community policing. I think this can tend to happen in accounting as well, and business courses. They never do any actual accounting, or have ever actually run a business, but teach courses on it. I'd slightly modify the statement at the bottom - work wise what i have observed is those who are good at it do it, those who aren't good enough teach it. (the old "those who can do do, those who can't teach" saying). Slight modification i would make is most of those in the business /accounting sphere have done it, but those who weren't very good at it after a few years teach. Myself i'm an actuary and (with a few exceptions) i'd say the same holds true for my profession - we also work with a lot of accountants and general business folk, and from what i have observed the same is true for them. This reminds me of an old debate i have had with friends about football : do you need to have played to a high standard to coach it? I don't think so as it is a different skill set (i point to Jose Mourinho who was an interpreter before becoming a leading coach; Arsene Wenger did economics i think and a few others as examples. In fact most of the 'great' players who went into coaching failed as the players weren't up to their standard. To come back onto topic, the fact that Abernathy openly says he doesn't have much 'real' fight experience doesn't mean he doesn't know the techniques and can't teach them properly. It might mean that in a pressure situation he couldn't personally utilise them but that doesn't mean he can't teach someone else the mechanics. I did have a former coach that would have massively disagreed with me though here : as part of his grading system he wouldn't promote you beyond a certain point unless you could 'demonstrate some real self defence experience'; his solution for this was you had to work the door at a place in Glasgow a friend of his owned for a while. This led to 'practical training' fairly often (total scam of his but thats another story)! There’s a difference between teaching mechanics, and telling people what works in a fight and what works in real life, and what training methods are best. There’s a difference between teaching self defense, and teaching the mechanics of certain movements. Saying that combat sports training or combat sport style training doesn’t work for self defense, is that exact opposite of my fairly extensive experience. The traditional self defense training that was very similar to what Abernathy preaches and what can be found all over various TMA self defense videos did not prepare me for situations where I ended up having to protect myself or others. What did help? Combat sport training, and a self defense drill I haven’t seen replicated any where else.

and the militaries that have people teaching with no combat experience tend to be trash at war when they finally get a taste of it….there’s a pretty good example of that going on right now…I’ve never seen a boxing coach who didn’t have at least a few fights/smokers on their record. How successful are those coaches?

Literally no one said anything remotely close to that…

Wait…you haven’t been having fun while you train? Idk what data you’ve been using, but most all data I’ve seen has shown that when people are able to turn something and make it as fun as possible for themselves they learn to do that thing better. Unless you’re training as a professional, the training should always lean towards being on the fun side of the scale.