LionsDen

I’d also say that a lot of people do join to learn to fight, and at some point get disillusioned with karate based off of their experience at the dojo they train at.

i mean I know I’ve done stances in sparring, in sport fights, and while protecting myself and others while working, and you can see just about every major stance done in MMA.I’ve done hikite while sparring, sport fighting, and again protecting myself and others. Will you do a specific combination of stances and techniques from a kata? Probably not, but everything in kata is 100% perfectly reasonable in a fight if you understand how it should be used. While I can’t argue karate being judged by how clean and crisp technique is, it’s a standard i really wish people would try to move away from. No one in the history of the world has been so good at karate that their techniques look like kihon or kata levels of crisp while actually fighting. Even point fighting.

This actually leads to an interesting point: we can say that karate is less than 100 years old, but that's because of a technicality: Shotokan was first codified in 1928. Kobayashi Shorin-ryu wasn't codified until 1929, yet Shotokan is still considered a descendant style. While the debate on whether or not tang soo do is karate is as old as tang soo do itself, the consensus is that taekwondo is not karate, despite being derived from tang soo do - and, by extension - Japanese karate itself. And taekwondo was codified less than 30 years after Shotokan was. So far, we know two things: 1. In the evolution of a particular martial art that may have origins in karate, there eventually comes a point where it ceases to be karate. And, 2. It doesn't take a century for this happen. I agree with both points. However even if we assume ti/te still classifies as karate, it’s still Japanese because Okinawa is part of Japan. As for point 2 yeah a major divergence can happen almost overnight if someone is intentionally trying to make their own thing. Sort of like judo and aikido in regards to jujitsu. In both cases the founders of both styles had a specific intent to take jujitsu and use it to create something new and different. If i added 3 take downs, 4 pins, and 5 reversals from American collegiate wrestling and added that to goju ryu, and instituted a unique competition rule set, I would have created something that is clearly different from goju, but arguably still karate, and while I have little experience with wrestling I could make those changes in a few years at most.

This actually leads to an interesting point: we can say that karate is less than 100 years old, but that's because of a technicality: Shotokan was first codified in 1928. Kobayashi Shorin-ryu wasn't codified until 1929, yet Shotokan is still considered a descendant style. While the debate on whether or not tang soo do is karate is as old as tang soo do itself, the consensus is that taekwondo is not karate, despite being derived from tang soo do - and, by extension - Japanese karate itself. And taekwondo was codified less than 30 years after Shotokan was. So far, we know two things: 1. In the evolution of a particular martial art that may have origins in karate, there eventually comes a point where it ceases to be karate. And, 2. It doesn't take a century for this happen. I am talking about some of the current styles of karate that were founded in the 1920s-30s. But this brings up another point. Some have alluded to karate being a general term, while others have alluded to the term karate being the focal point of the question of this thread -- questioning if karate Japanese. While I don't necessarily disagree with either, 'karate', or the history, people, and ideas that form it, obviously existed before the term; either current or former meaning. This is why I believe it's way more nuanced than when the word was first coined. To answer the two points Sailor Sindbad made: 1) Exactly, and this applies to karate itself. At what point did what we now know as karate cease to become ti, tegumi, kenpo, kungfu, etc. 2) I would agree but with the caveat that this evolution and development is likely happening at a much faster rate within this past century than in the past. This is simply due to access and technology. I would generally say three generations or a half century is a good benchmark. yeah that’s my point. The old official modern style that I have seen is shotokan and it’s still only 94 years old, and several more years away from being distinctly different from what funakoshi taught on Okinawa….so no karate has had a century to become their own thing.

There's a whole lot of nuance to this that I'd probably have to start another topic on. But just so I'm clear... are you saying karate is Chinese? To add to this... look at pizza. Depending on where everyone lives in the world one's idea of pizza may be different. I'd argue that most of the world now thinks of the pizza created by Italian immigrants in America (the US), which is different from actual Italian pizza. But people still might generally understand pizza as being Italian food. So which is it? I personally feel American pizza is American food. It's had over a century to develop and become its own thing -- from access to ingredients to even how the sauce is made. I generally feel the same way about karate, which, depending on style, also has over a century worth of development in a generally specific location, that makes it different from its source of origin. it's 2022, what styles of karate have had any where near a century to develop outside of japan? heck I don't think any of the OG styles are even officially 100 years old yet...

Not to poo poo ideas, but I just want to interject that…retro styles like this idea can be a bit of a turn off to prospective customers if not done very intentionally. It’s essentially the 1980s version of what I suggested and could work pretty well, but could also could come off as ‘cheap’ or show that the owner is out of touch with the modern world.

Well displaying merch probably won’t entice new people to join, so you can’t do a display like the mountaineering stores, but what you might want to do is take some time to record, and edit a real nice looking demo, that you can play on a loop, via a TV in the window. Some really cool fancy looking kata, some typical compliant self defense demos, whatever sort of sparring you guys do, etc.

and yet for the next 20 years or more we’ll have people saying that to be a great MMA fighter you need to train wholly and solely for MMA instead of training any specific styles.

there are a lot of elite level kickboxers in MMA, but i think there needs to be a caveat to that, because modern KB in japan, and the US, comes from karate, and many of those elite level kickboxers are also karateka who spent years training karate, and chose to test that karate via kickboxing.Edit Also to address the sport specific training angle, we’re roughly 30 years into formal MMA’s large scale rise and many MMA gyms are still coaching serious fighters in individual single styles for both striking and grappling, and then combining them, and most fighters still have an individual martial art as a base rather than being ‘pure’ MMA fighters. It’s my opinion that if training ‘pure’ mma were the best method and route to go, we’d see a lot more of that, especially at the higher levels. It doesn’t seem to be the correct approach because it seems to be better to have an area of expertise that’s extremely strong, either in striking or grappling which is kinda hard if you’re training ‘pure’ mma. If you’re a jack of all trades master of bone pure mma type, you might be able to out grapple a high level boxer, kickboxer, nak Muay, etc. but will you be strong enough of a grappler to overcome their striking AND the lie take down defenses? If you’re a jack of all trades you might be able to out strike a high level grappler, but is your striking and takedown defense capable of keeping you on your feet against a high level grappler? The example that always comes to my mind when i think of this is Rory MacDonald. When he was coming through there was always a big deal made that he was the first in a new wave of purely mma trained athletes and they would dominate. Didn't work out that way really. Best example of the training separate styles school of thought i can think of is GSP. He was an excellent Kyokushin Karateka. Wanted to improve his ground game and is now a multiple degree BJJ BB under Danaher. Wanted to improve his wrestling and became so dominant at it that most people erroneously think of him as a wrestler who took up mma. My view has always been that if you learn the art itself in it's "pure" form then you can choose the techniques that work for you to integrate into your personal style. If you, for sake or argument, decide to learn Kyokushin, Greco Roman and BJJ, you can then choose the techniques from each style that you believe complement your style and each other, rather than relying on a coach having the same 'database' of techniques and teaching you them all. Will be interesting to see how things progress over time and if there does end up being a shift to people who have only ever trained mma. Maybe they will use that as their base and then train in individual disciplines to improve on that aspect - eg go train Sambo to work on leg locks etc and said coach likely won’t even train you in all those techniques just the ones they like and worked for them, so the other techniques that may work for you get left out.I’d also say if the inverse of the current modern trend occurs that it simply supports the idea that specialist training is indeed the best method of training for MMA, and not really a change.

don’t know what professors you’ve delt with, but all of mine have actually done the stuff they teach.Same with my gf…

I'll try, but man it's slow around here lol.

Idk if anyone else has noticed this, but a while back I realized there’s a lot of people who readily admit they’ve never fought, let alone fought in self defense or defense of another, yet they are self proclaimed experts on self defense, and often no one questions that. No disrespect meant, but a prime example of this phenomenon is iain Abernathy. He’s made hundreds if not thousands of videos, about karate and self defense, yet he’ll gladly admit he has 0 self defense experience. Despite this the karate community accepts him with open arms as an expert. I don’t fancy myself an expert despite a scuffle or two when I was much younger, and two years in a field where I was averaging about .75 physical altercation per shift, but I use my personal experience to shape my current, and future training, as well as the way I teach. Can anyone else think of another physical discipline where someone can only have an academic theoretical knowledge base, and get away with not only claiming to be an expert but also teaching others, and have few people inside or outside the community be critical of said person?

i am not particularly familiar with uechi ryu however whenever i see examples of it, whether in kata, or in general training formats, i don't see much that looks like kung fu when comparing it to other styles of karate, so maybe you could elaborate on that point for me?

So if I were to take Shotokan, move to another country, add breakdancing elements, and call it another name... would it cease to become Shotokan? Also, Karate having mixed elements of Muay Boran and Savate is pure speculation of which I've only heard come from Jesse Enkamp. I find his stuff entertaining but it's not at all based on hard evidence. Of course, if you have other sources I'd love to see it. Thanks for your .02. I did purposely leave the question broad to try and get a diverse set of responses. You bring up some good points I want to follow up on. First, the point that Okinawa has only been a part of Japan since the late 1800s... I think this is a point that gets glossed over a lot in discussions about karate. Obviously Okinawa, and Ryukyuans in general, were assimilated into Japan but had their own language, culture, etc. of which "karate" would fall under. Is karate than more Japanese than Okinawan? If so, why? Second, would you say you consider TKD as karate or style of it? Third, and somewhat related to the second... If we are to follow the logic of styles of karate having a level of Japanese influence, then why aren't all styles of karate considered Quanfa, Kung Fu, or Chinese? I agree with you when it comes to the big picture, and ones own personal training. There comes a point in one's own development when you realize that all martial arts are the same. However, I think the question I pose is more pointed. There is a cultural aesthetic to the different arts that are reflections of the people who developed them. And I'm not just talking about the clothes they wear. Techniques themselves are representative of different cultural aesthetics. If you consider this, then how would you distinguish karate? if not Muay boran then MT proper has had an influence on karate, after all Japanese kickboxing even today is dominated by karateka, and only exists due to MT’s influence.And there’s obviously levels to incorporation of new things, but generally yes, if you moved, and mixed shotokan with breakdancing in a meaningful way, no honest person could say it was still karate, let alone shotokan specifically. Depending on how you do it maybe there could be an argument that you just recreated capoeira.

if you’re going to claim Okinawa and Japan are different because Okinawa hasn’t been part of Japan for long, then karate is almost 100% Japanese because the term karate was not used until after okinawans began teaching the Japanese and then the Japanese themselves began changing it and teaching.Saying Okinawa isn’t really part of Japan or Japanese is like saying Texas isn’t really part of America or American.

So is language and terminology the deciding factor for you? What is your barometer in regard to karate? At what point, if any, does it go from being "coming from China" to just Japanese? The point where Kung fu is mixed with any other martial art within the territory or what we now call Japan. In this case there’s been elements of Muay boran, savate, and tegumi were mixed with Kung fu in Okinawa making quite distinctly not Chinese.

I think the change over time is totally right. I relatively recently returned to karate after many many years away doing other styles and had trained in the 80s/early 90s. When i mention that to people at my current karate class they almost unanimously comment on it being a lot rougher back then (i have to remind myself about the contact requirements all the time whenever i spar!) I have always felt that the contact requirements seemed to be more like a safety valve for people when training. If the rules said minimum contact, we usually always went a lot harder than that with regular training partners, but it meant that if someone was uncomfortable with the level of contact there was a clear mechanism to enforce this. The coach/instructor would just say to watch it - though tbh it was usually obvious and never needed said. Nowadays it seems that the contact rules are taken as gospel and people are less willing to adjust to their (and their partners) preferences. I would like to note that i am in no way advocating for ignoring an instructor's views on how to teach their class. If they want to enforce minimum contact then they are totally entitled to do so and their wishes should be adhered to. We just always had a list of places we could train that would be a little less rigid in that regard, and you could choose to attend there or not as you saw fit. I think it’s just a reality of the modern world. 80s/90s the idea of fighting in general wasn’t viewed as an inherently bad thing, particularly if it’s self defense, so if you came to school or work with a black eye a few friends or something might ask about it but most people would mind their own business. A minor at any age comes to school with a black eye there’s a very real possibility the police are called regardless of what the minor says. For adults black eyes aren’t viewed as professional appearance in most industries these days, so you’re actually putting your professional life at risk, all for a hobby you’re spending money on.

yes karate is japanese. just because it has influence even a strong influence from china that doesn't change the fact it most certainly is not kung fu. and not to get political, but tbh under the CCP china and chinese mouth pieces love to claim just about everything under the sun is chinese.

a year or two ago now on r/karate there was a poll to see who was training which styles, figured i'd give it a try here.

edit if the focus is largely fitness i'd honestly more or less turn it into a tae bo type of thing, and at the end of every session tell the participants if they had fun, and want serious self defense training or just further training, to look at the gyms/dojos in the area.

and a lot of the adults who want to learn martial arts are typically leaning more towards KB, BJJ, or MMA, if they don't already have a history of some sort in TMAs.I have a father/son combo i'll be working with hopefully before the end of the month.

yep, pretty much. people are pretty bad when it comes to assessing value lol.

It probably can, but I think it will take longer on boxing than say karate. If you wrap your wrists for support whenever you punch something, the strengthening of the wrist will be very slow.

I agree, that’s exactly what happened with kickboxing. However if KC sticks around it is very clearly karate, and the modern karateka in MMA are very open about how their karate is applicable to actual fighting. Something that didn’t happen historically. So what do you classify as "classical?" More open-minded to training with other styles, and exchanging theory and technique? that’s in the original post. Pre-export to Japan is what many have begun to consider classical karate.A time when students and instructors travelled to learn from others both domestically and abroad, before the long lines and deep ranks of students doing kihon, and kata endlessly.

Unfortunately the area is a very weirdly set up space that minimizes the space available for training One area is like 17x13, and the other is about 8x6 And that 600-800 ft of space also includes the viewing area for parents ah, my bad, I was thinking you were teaching teens / adults. i wouldnt teach children myself out of a home dojo.... just way too much liability involved on so many levels. in that situation i would rather teach out of a community center / rec dept. or church or community college program.. continuing education programs at community colledges are sometimes a good venue to build up students or start from. I’d prefer work with older teens and adults but when you’re literally across the street from an elementary school you do what you need to, to make a living out of it.