JR 137

I agree with your post. Nothing wrong with it, so long as the people there are happy and well-informed. But then again, most people aren't well-informed about a lot of things, myself included. Just because they're not my cup of tea doesn't mean they're all worthless. Everyone has the right to do as they wish. I wonder though... Do most students at McDojos know its a McDojo and are happy anyway, or do they think they're at a true dojo? If they're oblivious to it, I wonder if the dojo I train at is a McDojo and ignorance is bliss 😂

High price isn't a McDojo guarantee. What if a guy like Bas Rutten had a dojo that was twice as expensive as everyone else, personally taught, all other instructors were personally approved by him, and the training was top notch? McDojo means you're getting a circus act passed off as martial arts. There are some MAs that aren't self defense orientated - fencing and various sword fighting arts (unless you always carry one, but that's another topic) - yet they don't say fencing is great self defense. A McDojo will tell you your kata moves (without any bunkai other than "block" and "punch") and start-stop point fighting will make you untouchable. They'll tell you they're too deadly to practice with any force other than a tap at most. Doesn't matter if it's expensive or free. McDojo and expensive are pretty much synonymous, but definitely not one in the same.

I have no problem with people incorporating techniques from other arts into their art. What's wrong with incorporating the Muay Thai clinch into karate, it's principals or even drills from it that strengthen that strengthen the students' skills in that range of fighting? What's wrong with incorporating some judo throws, locks or chokes into a karate curriculum? How about incorporating some Aikido balance and force redirection? There's no one right way of doing things. As long as these things are complimenting the "traditional curriculum" (for a lack of a better phrase) and the instructor has a solid and functional understanding of it, rather than learned some stuff after a weekend seminar or the like, I see no issue with it. Wouldn't some Aikido force redirection principals help the student better understand/perform some kata bunkai? Wouldn't a few judo throws/chokes do the same? Too many people say one art has all the answers. Maybe karate does have all the answers. Maybe understanding the principals of other arts and incorporating them (perhaps not the specific techniques) will help answer the questions to all the "answers" the chosen art has. But incorporating principals from others and/or adding a few techniques and/or drills from another art doesn't make an entirely new art. Calling it something entirely new is absurd IMO. Keep in mind that Gichen Funakoshi spent some time at Jigoro Kano's dojo. He reportedly taught Kano some kata, which Kano incorporated into his Judo kata. Do you really think that was a one-way street?

You mean that was a joke? It has to be real. You've got the half moons on your finger nails. Haven't you flat-lined someone before? You got lucky with countering his ki with your foot; his ki was weak. Putting your tongue to the opposite side of your mouth is far more effective. Just ask George Dillman.

Depends on what I have available. Can't do bag work without a bag. Can't do kata effectively/fully without enough floor space. I'll do whatever I feel needs the most work that day. If I've been feeling tight for a while, I might do a few minute warmup followed by stretching the entire time. I probably should set aside 30 a few days a week to do stuff, but with a 4 year old and a 2 year old, once I have a few minutes of quiet, I'm on the couch in a vegetative state trying to decompress.

I guess the question is at old age are they being graded as a fighter or as a martial artist? The physical skills that they've proven time and again, or their lifelong contribution (and participation in) to the arts? Kind of like a lifetime achievement award. There's no right or wrong answer, unless there was zero thought put behind it.

Absolutely, CredoTe. There are more and more people coming from Okinawa and teaching the next piece, so to speak, but they're not close to becoming the norm. In the past I've worked out with some guys who study Okinawan arts such as Uechi and Goju Ryu (I've only studied Japanese karate). What they were doing didn't look like what I've seen people training in Okinawa doing on YouTube. YouTube isn't the holy grail of truth any more than reality is, but there's some merit to their being obvious differences in training methods and applications. I'd love to train in the old school Okinawan way, but there's no one around me that I've seen doing it. I think a big part of it is our societies' differences. We don't like pain; we tend to look at MA as exercise. I'm not saying everyone, but as a whole. They're not sadists, but they see it as a means to an end (not that there's an theoretical end in MA).

Crazy question perhaps, but do people who don't teach reach high dan ranks? Do people who don't teach on a regular basis (if at all) progress much higher than, say, 6th dan? Not just teaching groups of students, but perhaps solely teaching advanced students. Come to think of it, I haven't seen it. I think you have to be teaching advanced students regularly in order to be promoted past the basic "master" level (an oxymoron if I've ever said one), but I could be wrong. I haven't reached anywhere near the level I've discussed in my last 2 posts, nor do I have any personal friends who have, so my logic may be way off. The only ones I personally know are practicioners in systems I've been involved with and haven't had an in-depth conversation about it.

I think after 6th or 7th dan many traditional schools don't have a physical test for rank; it's merit based. Or perhaps better put, the rank is reflective of what the practitioner has contributed to the art or advanced the art or arts in general. What's wrong with merit based dan promotion when the practitioner is very high rank before the promotion? If they're at this point, they've proven time and again that they're worthy from a technique perspective. Are they learning new material such as kata, joint locks, strategy, etc. that they must demonstrate functional knowledge of? Or are they refining and furthering what they've learned at rep latively speaking lower ranks? Add to all of that a very high ranked practitioner is usually advanced in age. Are the physical skills of an 80 year old man as sharp and crisp as they were when he was 30, 40, 50, etc.? I agree with a lot of what's already been said. Perhaps my points aren't in the spirit of what was truly being asked in the OP. However, after a certain point of mastery, it's about what you've done to advance the art, not what you're physically capable of. Does a person truly need another physical exam after they've proven themselves physically worthy over the course of several decades? How much better do you expect an 8th dan to be at punching or kicking than a 7th dan? If they're not as sharp physically, do they fail the test and are asked to try again later on? Then there's post-humous promotions. Again, probably not the original intent of the thread, but being promoted without a test has its place sometimes.

I've got more, but it's late and I'll give others a chance. Last one - grandmasters who are under 40.

A money making machine that basically teaches dances rather than actual self defense. Little to non-contact sparring if there's any sparring at all. That's usually hidden behind the excuse of "these techniques are too deadly to practice on someone else." The chief instructor usually promoted himself/herself to current rank and previous ranks. Claims black belts in multiple systems, yet has no realistic training in them. Black belt in 2 years or less. Students have awful technique, as does the chief instructor. Basically, the instructor and the students couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, yet the keep getting promoted. There are a ton of belts that each test for them costs an absurd amount, everyone passes regardless of ability, there's always long-term contracts, and they cost a lot. Birthday parties, dojo mascots, after-school programs that include a playground, making your own kata/forms with tons of backflips and set to music, lights and fog machines while wearing glow in the dark gis, and using glow in the dark weapons like bos and nunchaku. Head instructors wearing patches that say things like "expert" "head instructor" "great kicks" "great spirit" "black belt club" or anything else that should be obvious without a patch saying it. The list keeps going and going. Sadly, these things exist. Some legit places may have a few from the list. If there's more, get out. McDojo can be summed up by a place about 5 blocks from where I work. One of my students goes there (I'm a middle school teacher). I asked her mother how much it costs, pretending I was interested in my daughter going (their website doesn't list prices). She's on the black belt plan - $2500 down, $130 a month until she "earns" her black belt. Typical time - 2 years. She's an extraordinary athlete. She'll get it probably a year and a half. They've got all the ridiculousness I mentioned earlier. Playground, mascot, kata "performances," self promoted "expert," and so on. They have regular in-house tournaments where the smallest trophy is about 3 feet tall. No one walks out without one. No exaggerating, trophies outnumber students at least 2:1.

Students starting at 4 usually go through a pre-k type program where they get electrical tape stripes on their belt. Some places call it Tiny Tigers or Little Dragons or some other name. They usually don't start the junior syllabus until 6. But if they're 6 and earn a brown belt or even a junior black belt in 5 years (making them 11), what do they do for the next 5-7 years until they're eligible for adult shodan? According to someone here, some places have junior dan rankings where they learn the rest of the syllabus to adult shodan. They need to do that to keep them going. Could you realistically blame a 13 year old for quitting because they didn't learn any new material in the last 2-3 years and won't learn any more new material for another 3-5 years? I get it. I just wish the belt color was anything but black.

Excellent post DWx. That post was more for the people who have an age requirement for black belt. I'm not an MA instructor nor a dojo owner, head of an organization, etc., so I don't have any first hand experience with the whys and why nots of an age requirement. I think there should be one, and it should be stuck to. If I ran my own dojo or organization, I'd set it at 18. I think it should be an adult thing. But I totally understand and respect why others don't have this stance. I'm also opposed to junior black belt for reasons I stated in another thread. I also stated there that I respect why schools do it, and I wish I could agree, but something inside me tells me if I had my own organization, I wouldn't have it. I'd have a different belt entirely - maybe a camouflage belt that represents all the kyu colors or even a paneled belt, like the red and white labeled belt some high ranking black belts wear, that had every color they completed. Again, just my uneducated opinion. I probably put black belt on a pedestal that's a bit too high.

All of you have more or less said the same thing, and the way I've promoted in the past - you meet certain criteria and are asked/told to promote. I guess I'm not going crazy. I'd quote some posts by others regarding promotion, but the context wouldn't be accurate in a simple quote, and I don't feel like digging through threads to find them. I was just wondering how common it is to be able to test when the student feels they're ready rather than when the instructor feels they're ready. it seems like some places have testing on certain dates, and anyone who wants to can try. Just seems odd to me to not be invited, but test anyway; kind of like an open testing policy.

Karate does have a lot of concepts to it; but, many of them were not passed on in a widespread manner when all the Osenseis passed away. Many karate schools in the West, particularly in the USA (I cannot speak for South America, Europe, etc, but I hypothesize that they're in the same boat), are missing important pieces of conceptual development. Some schools do, however. There are some that do teach Irikumi (in-fighting) and Tuite, development of gamaku (power generation) to achieve atemi (destructive power), etc. These are all part of Ti. See, Ti is largely thought of as the predecessor to Tode and eventually karate. But, it's more than that. Ti is a large core of concepts and methods that is missing from most karate schools... it was from mine, too. It doesn't mean I wasn't a good MA before; we trained hard, sparred hard, grappled hard, etc. But, now that we have it, I can't imagine our MA without it. It doesn't mean Ti is the only core of concepts and methods, either. Many exist, many that work for different people. So... what you're saying is that JKD suffers from the same QC/QA issues as pretty much any MA... Lineages split and go separate ways as practitioners get more experience and think they know better than others; "NO! I'm better! I know what Master wanted better than this other guy!"; "Nooo! I know better!"... Yay! Dojo politics! I don't know how to bold certain things, so sorry if this seems like a mess... You have to keep in mind the majority of the people who brought karate here to the U.S. They were service men who trained for relatively speaking a short time in Japan/Okinawa. They were most likely taught what amounted to the basics or fundamentals and were told to perfect their technique before they taught applications. Learn to walk before you can run. Nothing wrong with that. When they came here, they taught what they knew. Perfect the technique. How long is a your of duty? If it's 4 years, that's long enough to earn a shodan, if they started once the tour started and ended once the tour ended. What do kyu grades get taught? Proper technique. What should black belts learn? Application of the technique they've been taught already. Just my hypothesis of why we're so technique based over here. Regarding the OP... Different instructors are different, even within the same organization. It seems like your child's instructor doesn't know how to differentiate instruction between kyu grades and dan grades. It happens far more often than people realize.

There are always the X is better than Y, yet X isn't eligible yet due to a slight difference in age. But you have to draw the line somewhere. The drinking age is 21. What about a 19 year old who's fighting in a war, risking their life everyday? Have they not proven their maturity? Of course he/she has. Do we make an exception an put an asterisk on their ID card that says it's ok for them? No. The line has to be drawn somewhere. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just stating fact. If someone is 16 and is better than an 18 year old that is worthy of their rank, then they'll still be worthy (barring unforeseen circumstances) when they're technically old enough to hold the rank. If they can't wait 2 more years to officially obtain that rank, then maybe they really didn't deserve it after all. You have to draw a line somewhere. Their will always be people who are exceptional or make you question the rule and make it seem unfair. But the line has to be drawn IMO. If your rule is 18, it's 18. If it's 16, it's 16. I'm not a die-hard believer in the rules are always the rules, regardless of the situation, but if its a great rule 99% of the time, enforcing it that last 1% of the time shouldn't cause major turmoil. If a student quits because he/she can't wait another year or two, they'll find another reason not too long after you've made the exception. Or they'll point to that exception next time a rule is enforced. Or others will. I'm a middle school teacher, so I'm a bit biased. I see parents and students point to an exception made for very good reason, and think it should apply to their child who has a different circumstance and the exception does not apply.

Thank you, John. I just read your PM, and it's very informative. By the time I get the Shureido K-11, pay shipping and haven them alter it, it's really getting up there in price. I didn't know the altered gi either until I called and they mentioned it. The Tokon Spirit intrigues me. Maybe a Spirit now, and a Shureido or Europa in January when I finally get rid of the $1500 per month daycare bill.

Where do you study kyokushin? The Castleton dojo? I study Seido in East Greenbush/Defreestville. OSU! Yup, that's the place. Our respective dojos are pretty close! I just started up 3 months ago after a 14 year hiatus. Your dojo and the one I joined were my top 2 dojos to visit when I was looking around. I heard some very good things about your dojo from some people who's opinion I highly respect. Sadly, I didn't even visit yours because I couldn't make any of the Kyokushin adult class times. You're something like Mon, Tues, Thurs 7:30-8:30. The days and/or times your dojo is open are the days I can't train. I figure why visit it and risk falling in love with it if I have no chance in enrolling. If I can't even get to visit during one of your class times, there's no way I can train. It's all good though. I found the perfect fit for me where I am. Couldn't be much happier. I really would have loved to mix it up kyokushin-style on a regular basis though. OSU!

Most who don't stick with an exercise routine beyond a few weeks simply haven't found the right routine/exercise type. People get bored or it's too much too soon; and they don't have the motivation to keep at it because there's no fun goal they're working toward. I know you want to work out privately. If you've got a little bit of MA interest, maybe look into cardio kickboxing or a place like LA Boxing/UFC Gym? Don't get caught up in trying to keep up with others; just try to keep up with yourself. There's a very fine line between overdoing it and not doing enough. Everyone's line is in a different place.

Proper rest is just as important as proper training. The older we get (and one's getting younger), the longer it takes us to recover. If you know what's actually wrong, then again even if you're not 100% sure, you should see a physical therapist. Physicians are great at diagnosing the problem and fixing it surgically (if they're a surgeon), but I've found they're not good at prescribing precisely what's needed, rehab exercise-wise. A good physical therapist will also be able to assist you with a long-term solution, training-wise. He/she may not know one MA from another, but if you tell them the demands, a good one can break things down easily and help you make a logical decision. Add that to supplements therapeutic exercise, and you should be a lot better off. I'm a bit biased, having a background in athletic training (sports med, not strength & conditioning). I've worked along side some very good PTs. I've also worked along some not so good ones.

I've seen a few 70 year olds who'll easily beat up on people less than half their age. They're very rare, but they're out there. A family friend who's a retired Marine drill instructor comes to mind with a smile. My reservations with junior black belts or more so very young black belts doesn't come from physical abilities; it comes from maturity. There are kids who are quite mature, and adults who are quite immature. But life experience has to count for something. Again, I hate that I'm not a fan of junior black belts, but I can't help it. Yes, I'm putting a piece of cloth around someone's waist that when you really boil it down, all it does is keep their gi closed. Sometimes it even fails to do just that. But there's something sacred about a black belt. Handing it out to anyone who's shown the physical requirements undermines all martial arts IMO. How do you think most non-martial artists view them? They have a point, even though they don't know the whole truth. I've taken it as far as I can. I wish I could change my view.

I think it's similar to when a teacher leaves one style for another. A lot of people left kyokushin and either founded their own or joined another organization. When Sosai Mas Oyama passed away, he didn't publicly name a successor. Several claimed to be his chosen successor, but there was never a publicly made statement. There were a ton of politics. Hence why there's IKO 1, 2, 3, etc., IKU, and on and on. There were other issues too. Some thought it was too competition based. Others thought it became too hard core kumite based. Others wanted to see head gear worn and hand/arm strikes to the head allowed. Others wanted throws/sweeps allowed in competition. There were a ton of styles that came from kyokushin, large and small. Seido Juku, Seidokaikan, Enshin, Ashihara, Oyama Karate (not family related to Mas Oyama) are the large/well known organizations. There were a ton of local ones too that aren't known outside of a particular area. My area has several independent dojos that started out as kyokushin, their teacher left and started their own, then some of their students later left and started their own. Many of those students dabbled a bit in other arts and incorporated principals in what they teach. They used the original syllabus as a base, and added, deleted, and moved around material because they found/thought it was better for their students' learning. It's not always a McDojo thing. After owning and running their own dojo and teaching someone else's art for decades and being denied the right to teach what they truly believe is essential or watching changes being made that they don't agree with, they get tired of it and branch off on their own. As long as the motives are pure and the material is sound, there's nothing wrong with it. When it's motivated solely by not wanting to pay a reasonable royalty to the organization, there's a problem. When it's to cash in on the latest and greatest fad in MA, there a problem. Keep in mind, every old-school traditional system was started by someone who went out on their own. The Okinawan arts came from Chinese arts. The Okinawans that went to China weren't taught something the Chinese students weren't. They took what they learned and made it work for them. Nothing new about that. I don't have my own system nor do I teach MA. Just stating what I've seen many times. Kyokushin was huge in my area a long time ago (before I was born). When Nakamura left and formed Seido, most dojos followed him. Two prominent teachers in my area left Seido and started their own. Many left theirs over the years and started their own. All had different reasons. Agreeable or disagreeable depends ultimately if you're their student or not, I guess.

Seido Juku (aka Seido karate) is a huge organization. I there's dojos in 15 countries (including the U.S.). Started in '76 by Tadashi Nakamura who gained attention as a renowned Kyokushin karateka. Seido.com I've come across some very interesting styles and viewpoints in my short time here too. It's a great place.

This is my current issue. How did you change careers? I may want to do that too. PM sent.

I think the biggest factor that needs to be considered is age when started and age when quit/left. I started at 18/19ish. Trained through college, and had to leave when I left for grad school. Couldn't return because I started a career that was a 6 day a week, evenings, weekends and holidays job (college athletic trainer). I trained 1 night a week (the only night I could train), but I was way too tired and spending that evening away from my wife wasn't justifiable to me after about 3 months. A lot of kids leave for other activities and/or sports. Kids are kids, and there's nothing wrong with that. They leave other activities just as often. Older kids leave for college. Nothing wrong with that, nothing you can do about it. Recent college graduate aged people leave due to starting a new career that demands a lot of time. A few years after that age is having kids age. No shame in dedicating your "free time" to raising kids. These things are beyond any instructor's control. Life gets in the way. Adults who've been in their chosen career for a while, raised their kids or don't have any kids, and aren't forced to leave due to relocating or losing their jobs typically stick around for quite a while. When a dojo owner is competing with the above life situations, is there any wonder why the turnover rate is as high as it is? My current dojo is full of people like me - started out around college age, life got in the way for a while, then returned when the pace of life calmed down. When I told my current CI my MA experience and why I stopped training, he chuckled and said 90% of his adult students have a similar history.