JohnnyS

Ah, but were those people of exactly the same skill as Tyson ? I doubt it. Tyson had great defensive and offensive skills, as well as a great strategy. A small guy with greater skill can beat a larger, less-skilled opponent. Especially if the smaller fighter makes his opponent play his game. The Gracies are great examples of this. However, if the skill levels are close, then size will definately matter - as Royler Gracie found out when he grappled Mario Sperry.

I would say you're exaggerating the importance of unarmed combat in war. Not too many armies are going to waste time training their soldiers in unarmed combat when they could be training them to be using a pike or sword. Any unarmed combat would be more due to personal preference than to ensuring your army is going to win a battle.

Size matters in all styles of martial arts, especially if people are of the exact skill level. Here's some reasons why: 1) a bigger person will have more mass behind their punches. 2) A bigger person can take more shots from a smaller person, but not vice versa. 3) A smaller person will tire more quickly than a larger stronger person if they are grappling. To say it's only limited to certain arts is ridiculous. Do you really think a small guy, no matter what their skill level, could compete against Lennox Lewis, 6'5" and 250lbs ?

These have been posted on MMA.tv in the Australasia section, I thought it was funny as I used to train at Hanger4. Posted by Obesquiem: Would have been about 2 years ago at Hangar 4. This guy rings up and claims to be a ninjitsu master about to grade a senior student to black belt. He explains that as part of the grading he would like to judge his skill against another style, BJJ. He asks if they come down after class would any of our guys roll with him, BJJ rules. We invited him to attend anytime. Following Monday night, about 10 minutes after class, phone rings, it's the ninja master ringing from the carpark on his mobile. Tyrone goes out to meet them, they are dressed in full ninja uniforms, hoods, tabi's, with the lot. The ninja master tells Ty "If anybody laughs at us, there will be trouble!". There are about 20 students in the Hangar at the time. They come in and the master explains that the student is not permitted to speak at any time. His first experience was a pretty painless triangle but he took a really long time to tap and nearly went out? Then he gets double legged and armbarred smoothly by another white belt. The guy takes his hood off at this point as he can't see and it is too hot. At about the same time, the master, with hood still on tight, fell over a chair backwards, very embarrassing. He got up and removed his hood also. To everyone's suprise, both guys wouldn't have been 21 years old?!?!! The room is exchanging blank looks and taking the whole thing a lot less seriously?!?! The master asked if he could select the student for his guy to roll with the final time. We agreed but to our disappointment, the master selected one of the kids, a 12 year old boy who showed heart and promise and was allowed to train with the adults. The boy at once accepted despite the instructors forbidding the match. In the end it was agreed and the two engaged, the boy quickly took his back escaping a desperate headlock and choked the would be ninja in about 20 seconds flat. What a hero. The Hangar went a little crazy!!! The ninja student is crying openly at this point and after a short thank you, they leave but ask if they can return and attend classes, of course they never did. ----------------------------------------------------- This is not a dojo challenge story, but it was in the 80's (maybe 86) and ninjutsu was gaining a reputation of being the deadliest art. I was training ju-jitsu. We went up to Brisbane for an all-styles martial arts competition. It was a little like the amateur shoot fighting, no head contact, can't remember if it was points based or not. The ninjas were doing some sought of monkey style, and they held their hands like claws and were always trying to scratch the face. As soon as they were taken down they would go straight for the eyes. There was a big commotion because they refused to play by the rules, and the masters just laughed. Instead of banning them, they decided to up the level. And the ju-jitsu guys started doing some real nasty throws, dumping the guys on their heads, and crashing onto their ribs. I think a few joints may have been damaged that day. P.S. The Karate guys remained respectful the whole time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- About 16-17 years ago I trained in Ninjitsu for about four years. The instructor I had was tough and mean but highly skilled, and we never followed the other clubs in things like crawling alond roads, running on top of fences (pretending you have a sword on your back) and climbing up trees when people were near (this is all true), we just trained in combat drills whilst all the other affiliated clubs did the above. In anycase, near the end of my training with this style, a bunch of us (supposedly the best students of each club) had been required to enter an all styles points tournament (non contact). When we got to the tournament, we were all met by the head of the organisation (who was flanked by his four body guards (to protect you from him, not him from you)) instructed all the students that we must knockout our opponent and get disqualified (remember a non contact tournament). After a couple of students conducted full contact strikes on their oppenants, the head instructor went around yelling to people about the strength of his style of ninjitsu. Supprosingly, most of his students never came back after that. Another funny thing was during the weapons kata section of the tournament, one of the body guards (they called themselves knights)was doing a sword kata (with a live blade katana and did a twirling move near his head. All of a sudden, he stopped and grabbed his ear. On the floor about 10 feet in front of him was his left ear. the sword got to close to his dead and having rather large ears as he did, it came straight off. Oh yeah, I have this on video tape and sent it into Australias funniest home video but they didnt show it. You had to be their.

Treebranch wrote: "The battle field was a better teacher, than the ring ever will be." Sorry, but this is ridiculous. What army ever successfully fought using only martial arts ? Armies use weapons and H2H combat is not something that was encouraged. Oops, I guess there was the Boxer Rebellion, but we all know how successful that was right ?

Arm-drag and convert to hammerlock. Also, spinning the opponent around and applying a sleeper hold.

Actually it was. Togakure is the major ninjitsu style in Australia and I've seen about half a dozen different schools. If you enjoy it then great (because the main thing is to have fun with what you're doing). I just wasn't impressed with what I saw. Let me add this however: One of the associate schools under my instructor is a ninjitsu school in New Zealand. My instructor, John Will, thought they were going to be typical ninja's but he had to re-evaluate his ideas on ninjitsu after training with these guys. He said they train really hard and don't get into all the bullsh*t usually associated with ninjitsu. BTW, they really love BJJ and now train it as part of their regular classes I believe.

Of course. However people make the claim that it's bad to be on the ground in a multiple attacker situation and it's just stating the obvious. However, there's a good chance you will end up on the ground if several people grab you at the same time. Not knowing what to do there because "it's a bad place to be" is just stupid. I actually think BJJ can be a big help in this situtation and friends of mine who've been there agree. In some cases they were able to use their guard and cover up whilst choking the opponent in their guard unconscious. BTW, I enjoy these conversations. Last night we did more stand-up in our BJJ class directly because of these posts. I'd forgotten how much fun stand-up grappling can be

As far as BJJ not handling multiple attackers my response is: Pffft. Name me an art that can guarantee you success against multiple opponents. I've can give many stories of BJJers that I personally know defending themselves against multiple attackers.

I've had aikido and hapkido people try and apply finger and wrist locks on me whilst grappling. All it did was pre-occupy them until I had pulled them into an armbar.

I've seen Ninjitsu and I'm not impressed. I know there are some groups who train hard, but the ones I've seen were frankly a joke. Besides, I've got enough stand-up and traditional martial arts experience that I don't need to worry about self-defense anymore. I like BJJ now for the mental and sporting aspect of it.

BJJ has been used for decades, teaching how to clinch and takedown without getting struck or losing balance from a strike. I don't believe these "miracle" techniques are going to stop an experience grappler who trains for Vale Tudo.

Treebranch, I don't think someone is going to stop Rigan or Mark Kerr or any half-decent wrestler taking them down by twisting their pinky. Small-joint manipulation is very over-rated.

Rigan blocked the strike with his stick, then clinched. As far as anyone countering Rigan's grappling, they'd have to be an amazing grappler themselves. With your opponent that close, no strikes are going to knock out your opponent.

If other techniques were reliable then wouldn't they be used by wrestlers ? Surely if something worked so well then wrestlers would immediately start using it to win.

I'm going to have to disagree with you about clinching. Rigan blocks the strike, clinches with his opponent and takes his opponent down and finishes him. Why you don't believe this could happen to a ninja is beyond me. Nearly all weapon arts have or should have some grappling component, as closing the distance and grappling will happen quite a bit. If a clinch could happen to people who constantly spar with little protection, then I don't see why it couldn't happen to Hatsumi or some other high-ranking ninja.

If you're talking armed martial arts then I'd say that Kali/Escrima/Arnis is the number one Combat Art. There's an interesting video of Rigan Machado training with the Dog Brothers, using a stick and defending against a stick before shooting in, taking the fight to the ground and finishing his opponent. I'd also suggest that the U.S. Army trains in BJJ and that the ground is the place I'd prefer to fight with bullets whizzing over my head rather than into me.

And what exactly is the definition of a "Combat Art" ?

I started off in Traditional arts then moved to MMA and BJJ. Best thing I ever did and I don't believe I'd be a tenth of the fighter I am without doing that. MMA and BJJ will help you make tremendous gains because everything is oriented towards sparring and fighting. Nothing is done that is irrelevant to fighting.

I agree that BJJ is not the end-all and be-all of self-defense. I love BJJ but will agree that there a lot of things out there that can be added to BJJ to make it a more effective street style. Things like set-ups for a fight, learning the pyschology of a fight etc from people like Geoff Thompson. Some of the things you mentioned are also applicable such as small-joint manipulation (my old karate instructor stopped a fight before it even began by breaking the thumb of his skinhead opponent who had grabbed my instructors jacket) etc. BJJ by itself is an effective martial art for self-defense. Adding to it techniques and tactics such as those outlined above will no doubt make it more effective. As far as your comment that BJJ is not the “undisputed king of combat arts”, this is what I will disagree with. If BJJ isn’t, then what is ? What other art has had so much success in MMA competition as BJJ ? It is well known that no matter what your base-art, you need to have some knowledge of BJJ if you wish to compete successfully in MMA. If all of these other dangerous arts are so good, then why aren’t they represented and using their skills in the ring or in the octagon ?

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So what do you do if someone (i.e. a bully who won't tap but will hurt you if given half a chance) doesn't tap out ? Do you explain to them the benefits of tapping ? - We do Do you explain that if they don't tap they can get hurt ? - We do So then what ? You just let them go and say way to go ? Never teach them WHY they should tap ? Never adjust their ego ? This is something that happens very rarely. In fact, it's maybe happened a few times in all the years I've trained. It has also happened a few times with advance guys when we were engaged in a leglock battle - but that's just training and leglocks are notorious for causing injuries.

I honestly don't understand you people. I'm not talking about a whitebelt. I'm not talking about drilling a technique. I'm not talking about hurting someone by cranking on a technique. I'm talking about live-grappling against someone who knows what an armbar/choke/leglock is and who refuses to tap because of their ego. If someone doesn't tap when I'm attempting a submission then I have to presume that I don't have the technique on correctly or tight enough. If that person is too ego-driven to tap then it's their fault if their arm gets cracked. Why should I be held responsible for someone not tapping when they should know better. I say it again - if you crack the arm of someone like this they'll learn their lesson and be better for it in the long run.

So someone who is an ego-maniac should be allowed to train without ever tapping ?

LOILOI44, We place the responsibility for injury on the person, not their partner. We encourage people to tap, that it's not important, that it's a learning experience and that you should tap and keep training. If someone refuses to tap in a grappling match (not a drill) then we can only assume that our technique is not on, and keep applying it. As I said the only time people ever get hurt is if they are too ego-driven not to tap. The way you're espousing encourages these people not to tap. They'll never learn that it's okay to lose and that you learn more from your losses than when you win. What you're suggesting is that it's possible to never get beaten in your club because you guys will let the submission go if I don't feel like tapping. How is that helping people ?