Beer-monster

Bozo. I'm not saying that BJJ is all about groundwork. But thats all I've seen and all anyone talks about. I just wanted to know what BJJ has when its unavailable as a matter curiousity. I know the stand up is there, just never seen it. What kindo of stand up locks, do you use wrist locks like Kote gaeshi? What throws are taught that wouldn't end up on the ground, unless you did a makikomi.

No one wants to talk to me. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Surely one of you BJJ practitioners have a reply, a self-denseice metghod that does not involve rolling about on the floor. Not that there is anything wrong with that (if you want to, have fun ). I'm just curious as to what BJJ teaches when going to the floor is not suitable. I'm not taking the p*ss I'm just interested. Please someone reply.

How to practise the art, and know how to fight. Hm. My advice would be to use common sense and test with sparring, you know that block,punch kick won;t work. But what other meaning those movements could have, would they work. Also I would practise kata with Iain Abernethy's books as my bible. That will put you on the right path, and how far you go from there is up to you. As for kamae, I think I need some clarification. Do you mean stances such or guards. They are different things. Which one do you mean. Personally I always practise from a modified Shizentai Kamae.

For a forum that is supposed to be for discussion between true karate practitioners, this seems like a stupid topic. Anyone who knows karate properly knows how useful kata are. They are like a zip drive, a lot of information condensed into a little movement, however it is often hard to decode this info, but well worth the effort. Put simply read Iain Abernethy's Bunkai-jutsu book and see the light. And something to think about: Have any of you ever used a low stance and gedan barai to block a kick in free sparring (not competition but more combat orientated with a full power kick). Did it work?

Aikido is an amazing style, however taisabaki movements require alot of space and distance, which when the opponenet is up to your face in a crowded pub, is scarce. Also it is purely defensive, which although ethically correct is a bit naive in the streets. But other than that it is a useful style but takes along time and alot of thought to overcome the above flaws. Karate is effective in when used correctly, but finding someone who does use it correctly is very rare. Who would win, depends on the fighters.

Just to satisfy my curiousity, a question for all you BJJers out there. If in a fight you couldn't go to the ground (your on a dance floor strewn with broken glass say), what kind of techniques would you employ to come out alive. Would it be grappling or strikes or what? Totally hypothetical of course.

Time for my 2 pence. Why does everyone assume that there is such a things as an ultimate martial art, on the ground standing or whatever. A martial art is a means to an end, a tool. Is there such a thing as the ULTIMATE HAMMER, (cower before me nails mwa ha ha. Oops sorry). If you train hard understand your art and prepare, you will do well. of course this relies on good training which many karate schools lack (its not the traditional way, but modern way of karate that is flawed just for you anti-traditionalists) As for karate ka and ball grabbing. As a karate stylist and a jiu-jitsu practitioner, I have the option to apply armbars or strikes. And personally I would rather not follow my enemires to the ground. Too many mates and broken glass (also I admit to not being built for extended groundwork.) Sure you can use BJJ against multiple opponents. But why take the risk. If you can avoid getting floored (possible with a fence) perform good strikes to vital areas (eyes, nose, jaw, groin) or apply a standing arm lock, why go to the ground? Whats to gain by struggling for the submission or break, when you can just beat (or throw) him to the ground remain standing, the stamp on his head and leg it? And has anyone heard the term pre-emptive? In the end, hitting the * really hard where it will really hurt, then finsihing or runnning its the best way in my book. Safe, quick and less risk from mates and debris. ( And before someone says yes I do train groundwork, but as I said, I'm physically unstuited for it, and I'd rather use it just in case I get floored, not as the be all and end all.) Just my opinion, that I thought I'd add, If you blokes want to roll on the floor snapping limbs, and its works for you. All power to you. As I said its two different paths to the same goal.

Tai otoshi is difficult in a Judo type competiotionwhere you push and pull, each monitoring the others momentum. Meainly cause to do it well, you need to steal alot of your opponents momentum. It is avery Aiki, throw, so you don't throw him, he throws himself you just give him something to trip over and make sure he finds it. Its his energy. Try practising it from a punch defence or a sharp one handed push. Stand quite far apart, about one pace. have your Uke step forward and punch. Deflect away from you and step to the inside and then grab his arm and shoulder and whip him around through a circle over your leg. Make sure you get there earlier so that he is still moving as you do the throw and his energy will be yours to use. Sorry if its vague its hard to describe in words.

smr-The problem I think you and others have is your concept of Ki. You seem to think that its the believe in some wierd form of magic. To quote Arthur C Clarke, any sort of advanced technology would seem magic to those who do not understand it. So to the ancient Chinese such things may have seemed magical, thus starts the myth. But we know understand various form of biological processes behind acupuncture as having to do with the enervous system.Yet you believe in the nervous system and not the Ki. Perhaps chi flow is the ancient chinese's way of explaining the nevous system based on the facts they had all those hundreds of years ago, it is said to flow in nerve like meridians. Is it so impossible that Ki has to do with nerves not magic. For example a person in extreme distress and panic is capable of bizarre feats of physical acts. One person managed to lift up a crashed helicopter to escape. Science explains this as a focus of adrenalin, mental power and nervous strengthening brought on by the survival instinct. Perhaps Chi Kung is the use of breathing to voluntarily focus the above things. The Chinese found away of uniting energy and factors in the body which usually act independently, making them stronger and healthier. It may seem like magic but its discipline and science. However our western mind find it easier to discard it as nonsense instead of putting in the thought and research to get through superstition and make it fact. Thats a matter of pre-conceptions not logic. The basis of science is to do and ex[eriment and test a hypothesis. But few experiments have been done to test this in favour of arrogant disregard. As for the one inch punch. It is an explosive release of the bodies energy. The Chinese called this Fa Jin and it was suposedly a release of Chi. Kinetcic energy = 1/2 mv^2. V is velocity and so to have enough energy to launch a person across the room, you need alot of velocity. The normal acceleration of the human body is insufficient to achieve such velocity in one inches interval. Therefore it requires alot of focus and talent of the bodies energies, noty just kinetic. And that what Ki is, not magic but a focussed use of the bodies resources. Is that so hard to believe, its just science and will power.

If you try chi kung (not to be confused with tai chi) you should feel something form the first time. Not a being able to med steel bars somethings, but something. When I tried it, I felt a warm tingling like a warm, thick liquid running inside my skin. Unfortunately I like the time, perserverance or intructors to make the practise habitual. The warmth ties into raised blood, and the tingle to bio-electricity (like static charge). But those who can use it have learnt to focus it, and that takes time. And in a our modern society, no-one wants to spend time. Those 99% of martial artrist do martial arts which do not teach Ki focus, I mean there are students who give up Karate for BJJ cause they want to fight and not do kata or lines. They want results. So with people like this, who's gonna take the time to learn Ki, when muscle is faster. Who has that kind of time, we all have jobs. smr you said why does no-one else use Ki. Ki is the fundamental concept behind all chinese medicine including herbalism and acupuncture, not just martial arts. Nearly everyone in the orient belives in Ki in some form. Its just us in the west who don't grasp the concept, and most of us dont want to. Also most of those who do internal martial arts such as tai chi, do not use it as a martial arts skill. Although way to release energy into throws and punches have been developed (fa jin) most do not use them. Instead they use chi to improve health and long life. The martial arts applications of Tai Chi movement though brutal are often secondary. Think of all those people in public parks in beijing doing Tai Chi. Are you telling me they are all hard, rough and tumble warriors. Chi is fundamental to China, and through Japan in the form of zen (which advocates focus of the bodies energy, which although they don't call it chi, amounts to the same thing to me.) So its not just us MA's. What about the one inch punch, how does that work then, without Ki. Finally On a slightly more immature note . Wouldn't it be so great if we could do Hado-kens?

I believe in Ki. And I'm also a professional physicist, so I can't say I'm superstitious. I think what is known as Ki is a combination of several factors, breathing, blood circulation, bio-electricity. It's some form of energy innate to life and harnessable, maybe its mind over matter. Our western ideal of the mind is seperate from the body and of god make this hard to grasp, as much of asian ideals depend on mind,body and spirit as one. But modern physics show the inter-realtion of all things, and it has also been scientifically proven that Chi Kung and Tai Chi improve blood circulation, breathing, and increases the bodies heat and bio-electrical field. So Ki is probably a focussed and built mix of these and other forms of energy in the body, which is all reasonable. Its the superstitious words such as spirit which confuses and sheds doubt on what seems as a harnessing of the body and minds energies. We may understand the bio-mechanics of the human form, but the bodies use of electrical and other energy is cloudy. Not to mention the whole 90% of the brain which is suposedly untapped. Like acupuncture, it is said to be linked with the flow of chi in Chinese thought but with the nervous system in Western. Perhaps they're the same thing, or at least related. The problem is that scientist don't bother investigating such things. Shame as I would like to research it. Also not to offend someone, but I find the idea of a non-sentient spiritual force a little more sensible than an all-powerful devine being.

It can fail you. Nothing in this life is full proof. You may fight someone much bigger and stronger than you, and there only so much that training can help you with against that. Or get hit by a barstool form his mate, or he may connect with a lucky shot or many other things. What I was trying to say was that most people have a pre-conception that martial arts fighting involves high kicks, daft stances and jumping about. That is quite useless and will get you hurt, but real martial artist use realistic techniques are an effective force, it just doesn't look like martial arts. So most people say its useless, because of their own preconceptions not the art. That can also have happened to your friend. He may have thought karate only involves stances, kicks and punches, and that he may have parried and warded off more freely instead of the hard blocks that most peopel see trained. Before I thought that if I useds a throw I wans't using karate but some other art. Now I know better. It is easy to get distracted by an ideal of what an marts or a stle is supposed to look like. And that why many people say its ineffective, coz they don't see what they expect.

In ippon seoi nage, the important thing is to drop your hieght. You need to but your hips beneath your uke's to give you a mechanical advantage, do this by bending your knees. Also make sure that when you pull them, you pull them around your body. Pull their arm towards your opposite hip, (if you're throwing them over your left shoulder it would be your right hip) and twsit your body as if turning to look behind you. This prevent them going right over your back and crippling the both of you, you want them over your shoulder. In tai otoshi, you want to be fast. Steal their energy and pull them round whirling them in a circular path. You yourslef much make each step in line, so when you turn you do it through 180 so that your feet are in line. twsit onto the ball of your proping foot and with your heel pointing up and knee pointing down, this gives you some buckles so that if the fall on your leg, it doesn't break. Finally don't hold them too close, you need about a foot or more space between your bodies so they fall over your calf or lower thigh, not your hip or you'll both go over in a heap. Bear in mind that I train in traditional jiu-jitsu, so most of my techniques are trained against in coming punches, it may not work in Judo like competion and randori. Nevertheless I hope this helped.

Real street martial arts does not look like martial arts. If when grabbed I twist, hit their neck, grab their hair, elbow them in face then yank them to the ground by the roots of their hair, I probably just look like a violent b*st*rd. However I have just used the combat bunkai of the opening movements to Naihanchi kata. . In comedy its not the words but the delivery that make the joke. Same for us. It is not the technuiques that make martial arts effective, its the way we do them. Any idiot can throw a punch, but Karate training makes our punches more direct, faster, more powerful and more accurate. Your dads friend who said he never used martial arts in brawl probably did not know he was using them because he did not use high kicks or flashy throws. But by punching someone he was probably doing it the way he was taught and was thus using martial arts.

This ancient reverse punch you say about. Where did you hear about it. It sounds interesting. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction to begin my research. At the moment I use an adapted punch involve certain boxing elements so that the fist is propelled by me whole body acting as one muscle not just the hip. What is the old way?

Rich I understood what you meant about Kata, I'm not an idiot. All I was trying to say was that the styles we know today were developed out otrying to day was personal interpretation, as kata were each individuals style. What I was trying to say was that there is no better style, the tools are the sam and how you use them depends on the individuals talents and strategy so a which style is better thread is moot. As for the reverse punch, I'm sorry if I misunderstood, all I was saying was that the reverse punch as it is is far from ineffectrive, it may have lost alot but it is still good. And that alot of the opinions expressed seem to disrespect the technique. I have experimented with the technique with other principles such as boxing bio-mechanics and chinese baqua stepping, and have been surprised, but the way the other people on the forum sounded was that they did not like the technique, that is their opinion but I just thought they were missing out on something. As for Gendai barai, anyone who had tried to use it as a block in free sparring know that that motion and application is incorrect. Once again I'm not an idiot so don't think I am cause an opinion which really did not conflict with your much at all.

Okay first the styles bit. The different styles are just different interpreations of the same thing. Its like the themes in a Burn's poem may mean something different to you than it does to me. Wado-ryu evolved because Hironori Otsuka felt that Karate should be softer, Kyokoshinkai, because it should be harder and more testing. But the styles cont6ain the same techniques, may be differently applied but the tools are all there. So long as they know how to use them correctly any Karateka is an effective fighter. One thing though I find odd. Who came up with the no reverse punch thing? Every fighting style has some sort of back hand punch, the gyaku tsuki is the karateka's equivalent of a boxers cross. It is an amzingly effective punch both in sports and streetfights and for who train it and understand it. It is the heavy artillery, a lights out blow when placed right. All karateka should have this punch at the forefront of there strategy IMHO. Perhaps the reason for the confusion is the fact it is rarely trained as a punch to the head, but all it takes is a little adaptation of the body mechanics. What do you all think, and where did the phrase come from?

Naihanchi, the bunkai is simple effective. The close combat karate kata

Okay just an idea, that I've used and it's worked for me as a karate and traditional jiu-jitsu stylist. It all depends on the time for your reaction. If you have say one or two paces distance and see it coming your fine, if not you're buggered. The worst is if someone uses it after being forced to one knee or getting up from a strike or throw. Anyway, stepping back into a long traditional karate front stance works well. Sound daft for those who don't like stance, but it takes one leg out of range and makes you stable against the rush and momentum. But you have to be fast on you're feet. Use your hands to jam his motion by pushing back then whack him hard with hammerfists and knees. But bear in mind the person I trained this with is not the worlds best grappler but he good. If in doubt go for the balls, even an expert will find it hard to put on a submission if you grab and twist his nads.

The rock bottom is similar to Osoto Otoshi in jiu-jitsu for the guy who mentioned it.

Yep, after a certain grade usually comes at 4th and 3rd Kyu gradings. Then progresses to real swords, chain etc.

I looked up some more info. Turns out Tani-ha Shito ryu was the name of the style Tani taught, but the organisation of karate he founded (based on efficientcy in techniques) was called Shokukai. Eventually the style became known as this (like how Shotokan was named after the building it was taught in.) Yoshinao Nambu was a student and teacher of Shokukai before he created his own style called Nambudo.

Shokukia was developed by Chojiro Tani, a is developed from okinawan styles of karate particularly Shito-ryu and Goju-ryu. It was developed using the help of physicista nd methamticians who analysed the bio-mechanics of karate and modified movements to be more practical and efficient. As for Tani-Ha Shito Ryu, it is either the name Tani used for his original shokukai organisation, or more likely an older name for what was to be known as Shokukai.

Thatshe true. But the origin the style and its similarities to other styles is a point of interest to myself and I was hoping that it was to others as well and would make for a good discussion.

Know your enemy and know yourself and you will never be defeated in 1000 battles.-Sun Tsu That is, you need to know and understand grappling if you want to anti-grapple.