Beer-monster

Um...I never said that it was a leg strengthening exercise. I know it isn't. I just stated that many people say that why its there and that it can serve such a purpose if you want it to. Then again many people think the stances are just their to make the kata look good. But then some people think the moon landing was fake.

Congratulations!!!!! Score a point for karate.

I have recently started jiu-jitsu and can say that the movements in the kata are similar top the basic movements behind many throws and locks, though exaggerated for mneumonic purposes. Particular wheres stances are concerned. Many people regard kiba-datchi or horse stance as a leg strength exercise, and it undoubtably serves this purpose well. But in jiu-jitsu and judo many standing joint locks particularly arm bars are perfromed in this stance as it allows you to push your body weight downwards on the lock and apply pressure without comprising you balance by bending over. An example of this is in pinan sandan. Where you drop into a low horse stance with your arms pulled at the side before lashing out your lead arm in a gedan barai move. This makes a good arm lock as when you seize or are seized by the arm you pull the captured arm back to your hip in a twisting hikite with the lead arm wrapping over the top with the forearm over the elbow joint. Dropping in to kiba datchi you apply pressure to the elbow and can snap it easily. After applying the lock or break (or if it fails) use your lead hand to strike with tetsui-uke (hammerfist) to the temple and finish. There is also a great shoulder lock in Pinan Shodan (heian nidan). I would recommend Iain Abernethy's book (Imaginitively called "Karate Graplling methods") if any of you want to study this more, as I personally find it fascinating. Does anyone know any grappling Bunkai for Chinto (Gankaku I think, can anyone confirm ) as the sailor Chin To (for who the kata was named) was supposedly a wrestler or grappler of some form (my guess is Shiau Chiou). I unfornately have not learnt this form yet And any for Matsu kaze?

Um..Beer-monster is just a pen name. I'm not a raging acoholic (though I enjoy a drink in moderation) What does alcohol have to do with anything...I never mentioned it. "What some know is better than what others think they know" Your point being? What you know and believe to use in your training is more importants than any criticism of your methods if you know it works. Which is a touchy subjecty since how do any of us know what works?

um..does that mean you think its useless or useful?

Some styles do, or rather some teachers. Unfortunately not mine (well not often) . Also most people come up with some rather illogical bunkai based on what the obvious is. For example the first moves of Pinan Sandan (heian nidan) Your supposed to block with one hand while the other is in a box like guards. Bring the guard hand down to break the arm at the elbow then step up and puch the guy. That strikes me as stupid for many reasons firstly in the first moves such a guard is useless and redundant. Second the move wont break the eblow unless they have arms made of twigs or your superman. Third themselves are too far away the punch would never strike. Another bunkai I've heard is that once again you block with the front and box guard with the rear, however then the rear hand strikes the collar bone before once again punching. This time your too close if you can hit the collar bonje with such a strike then you are too close for a punch. When I read Iain Abernethy's books he pointed out that the movements are very similar to the set up for a shoulder lock with the punch as a fail safe if the lock fails. I've learnt this lock in jiu-jitsu and have seen it in many Chin na books, it is effective and brutal (can easily dislocate the shoulder with little strength required). This application considers the distance of the attack, use of hikite and the back hand and every other element of the movements. It also makes more sense and can be varied using the principles. The lock can even be applied on the ground (I believe it is called ude garame). Um to cut along story short, your lucky if they explain bunkai but dont take it at face value. Use common sense and test if it works, don't just take your sensei words for it (I mean that with every respect) it only takes one guy to get it wrong and teach it, to make a whole group of people wrong. We should all remember black belts and dan do not make us infallible. PS- Did anyone get explained the moves after the first front kick (when you go in x-stance and kiai) as a backfist to the face?

Kata is programming in that its a mneumonic device and but its not exactly the same. Zenkutsu dachi teaches you to push your weight forwards behind an attack. Your not expected to drop into the stance as its shown in the kata (anyone with 1/2 a braincell can tell that, the kata knows this being made for fighters) but it emphasises the action of pushing with a bent front leg and straghter back leg to put more momentum in the attack. You may not use the exact stance but the kata had programmed the art of using your body's weight to your adavntage instinctually. Now that the movements are instinctive, you must understand its uses, thus the thought. Too many people look at the obvious and the hand not the movement. The movement may use a fist, but that doesn't man its a punch. The essential movement it thrust out you arm quickly, a movement that it also used in grabbing and pushing. Since no-one I know would use a punch like that, it must be one of these alternate motions (or a punch and a grab implied in one movement). The first step punch in Pinan Sandan is better explained as grabbing someone beneath the arm around the waist for an o-goshi hip throw, a fundamental and easily applied attack.

I agree satori, kata makes karate. It has the focus and spiritual elements wanted in an art, yet without the principles in kata karate is next to useless as a realistic fighting system. Goju1, would it work. That depends. It would probably bore the modern minded student to tears, but if you had the dedication to put up with it you would be a good martial artist both in the mental and pracycal aspects. However with todays assocaitions what would there be to teach without a a kata at each belt to form the basis of the syllabus. I've recently started to read a book by a 6th shotokan name Bill Burgar called "5 years, one kata" which is exactly what it says on the tin. He spent 5 years analysing the hell out of the Gojushiho kata, his entire training regime was based on this kata. He looked at every movement in different ways until he had an effective applicayion for them (if the movement did not hold up in sparring or seemed illogical eg gedan barai as a block he would discard it). He varied the ways of performing the kata until he was shadow boxing the moves instead of following the precise pattern and stances, most improtantly he visualised the enemy in every detail (quite a skill that needs development) until he was doing more than 'punching air'. He even used modern theories such as probabilty distributions to co-ordinate his training. eg most people are responsive to vital point but there are some who a really responsive and some people don't feel a thing. He moved his training to focus on vital point so that he could use them accurately, but not become dependent on thgem incase he was ever against one of those robot people. Recently I've begun looking at the Naihanchi/tekki series more closely (its the only kata that can be performed in my tiny uni dorm ) based on the idea that the strategies of Naihanchi are developed for close quater combat. Perhaps we all would benefit from ignoring the many kata and looking deeply into our favourite one (spicing it up slightly so that we dont numb our brains) and learning what it can teach us. If so I hope someone who do Seienshin, that one confuses me

There is the problem in itself you know 40 kata. That is a symptom of the modern karate art not the fighting style. Traditionally a karateka would know about 3 kata and 5 was conssidered a lot

Um..I'd like to apologise to satori. I was just looking back through the posts and noticed I mentioned the UFC first. Sorry about that I should take my own advice.

Brown ale??? Are you a geordie? kata have an amazing magnitude, I was thionking on my way to work about a bunkai application for the age uke, mawate gedan barai combo (thats rising block turn low block) in pinan nidan (heian shodan) and as I analysed it came up with at least 8 principles behind its working and its effectiveness. Principles that are useful strategies in combat and can be carried over to other techniques. All contained in two movements. I'm an idiot so if I can do it anyone should do better, I hope you all give it a go. If you understand the principles that make one techniques qork you can devise several motions that will work too, thats the principle behind kata (and ironically Jeet Kune do as well). Oops soap box got under me again. Just wanted to give soem people something to think on, feel free to ignore me.

Thanks for the support Sasori. However could we keep the UFC links out, I'm kind of getting irriated with all these threads turning into UFC debates. everyone thinks they can use them to prove or disprove anything. But they have nothing to do with the current subject. Thanks again.

Dances are what they've become not what they are. What have I learned. Vital point strikes. Muchimi Hikite (lop sau) Throws (o-goshi, ko-soto gari/gaki and more) Joint locks The fundamental principle of combat How to defend myself One hit mentality Moves that can be varified for the ground (need to test that though, need a ground partner) Defences and escapes from grabs Defences from common attacks The strategy of a complete fighting method of a single kata. Thats not mentioning the spiritual side and thats just from Naihanchi/Tekki kata. If kata are a dance why have they existed for hundreds of years including when karate was mostly secretive so there was no need to look tough? Why does it exist in some form in thousands of martial arts styles the world over. Kata is only useless to the modern student who think karate is about stamping and punching air, they have become misunderstood dances, but thats not what they are. The true brainwashed are those that look for a quick fix and see only skin deep at the kata and don't really think about it.

I just thouight while we're talking about Naihanchi I'd put up this article by Iain Abernethy about it. Tell us what you think... http://www.geoffthompson.com/guest_writers/IanAbernethy/Guest_Writers_Iain_Abernethy_page5.htm

There are better ways, but iut doesn't mean that this one is useless. kata is an aid to memory something to teach a person how to do karate without needing an army of training partners. Also why have things exactly as you use them and have every casual watcher know the secrets of karate. Martial arts were once a very secret thing. To use you analogy, if you had a better way of hitting a baseball than other people, would you want the opposing teams to see how it works? Besides you can't really compare baseball and karate. Also time would have effects on the way the movements are performed, making them more solid and unassuming with every person taught. The thing is kata is made by fighters for fighters, it assumes that the practitioner would have the common sense not to do exactly as it shows. If the fist is not immediately retracted perhaps it aint a punch but a grab. Perhaps gendan barai aint a block. Kata isn't outdated or ineffective the rest of the karate training is. We call it tarditional karate but its actually much more modern, teaching an art not fighting do not jitsu (not that ther is anything wrong with this). Modern karate has caused many to forget that karate contains jojnt locks and throws. You are right kata is not an effective method ON ITS OWN. To quote osuka again "Martial art progress from kata to kumite to combat" Kata is like a text book, it gives you the most effective techniques and hidden with those the strategy of that style (each kata is a whole system of combat, an individual style). Then you must moves to sparring which is like an exam, to show you the limits of that technqiues, to show you how to make it work and how to recover when it doesn't. Repeat regularly and you will be an effective fighter (against you run of the mill drunken fighter, I wouldn't go into the UFC just yet). Think on this: There are NO BLOCKS in kata!!!!

Sorry I should have paid more attention. However the about the posturem they are like that for a reason. They don't expect you do perform the technique as shown, the stances and positioning are clues that tel you what is needed to make the technques work eg Hand on hip is a hikte movement similar to lop sau in Wing chun, you pull a captured arm (or something else) to yank the opponent of balance and into your fist. Moves performed in zenkutsu dachi tell you that you put your weight forwards behind the movement, not that you should stomp into fron stance. I mean no disrespect and am not trying to be condescending ior anything, but I find it hard to believe that someone can study the kata well and not see them as important to combat. I have been looking deeper in to my kata for about 2 years now since I first read Iain Abernethy's work (I recommend them to anyone who doubts the use of kata). In that time I have had the misfortune to be in three fights in pubs and on the street (wrong place wrong time things), and in all three have used techniques that can be found in the kata to defend myself and so am sure that anyone can find them useful. I have found the best idea is to forget that Karate is a striking art (my jiu-jitsu training helps) and try not to see a punch as a punch a block as a block or a kick as a kick. Just to clarify I'm not preaching just saying what kata means to me. As for people who say kata is not about fighting as much as culture, focus d a good and ki. I see those as benifits and bonuses and a good reason to practise kata but not the ture purpose. Kind of like a car that has air conditioning and looks good, but the real purpose of a car is to get from A to B and kata is to learn combat. Um..sorry to waffle I'll get off my soap box now.s

Double punches, where? And hammer fist strikes, thats rather early in the kata, which is a little off but never mind. What do you like about the kata, and why sandan (haven't learnt that one yet)

Just a quick question that I need some help with. Where are the kiai in the naihanchi or tekki kata. I recently learnt Naihanchi nidan to go with naihanchi shodan but I have no idea where the suggested kiai points are in either (Stupid to forget that aint it ). So could someone tell me where the kiai are in Naihanchi shodan, nidan and sandan? And just to start some conversation what is everone opinion of these kata , what are your bunkai for it and anything else you'd like to discuss pertaining to these forms. Thanks

15 years and you've found no viable fighting uses? You must have done somthing wrong.

"Martial arts progresses from Kata to kumite to combat." Hironori Otsuka. It is the basis for skill in karate, however its best to know master 3 kata than know 10 sort of as the modern karate syllabus is based.

Head block into backfist? Is that just a shotokan thing coz I don't recognise it in Naihanchi.

Punch, though for use there no backfist only a gendan barai. I too dont' kiai as much as I should. I just can't do it unless I mean it, and I'm not one to use weak little "aiya"s for the sake of it. I also find it hard to pull it up from the gut or hara. Speaking of which where is the kiai in Naihanchi (or Tekki shodan).

Why is no one replyinhg to this thread. It was an interesting one that hadn't dissolved into pettiness. C'mon I want to hear more of your bunkai and opinions of kata?

Its both. Why use one source of power when you can use six? The leg and the hip both make contributions.

This is mostly a question for Goju stylists or anyone who has experience in this. A friend and fellow karateka recently told me that other than tournament fighting, all serious combat in Goju-ryu takes place is Sanchin stance. I have limited experience in this stance, prefering Shizentai, however it strikes me as a very stable stance, but severely limits mobility and being front on to the opponent, presents a larger target. So how does one use it for serious fighting and self defence against a range of attacks, and to perform a variety of attacks (not just blocks and punches)? Can anyone explain it coz I'm baffled.