Beer-monster

That a fair comment, but I wasn't really talking about NHB competions and such. Not every guy who cross-trains wants to fight in the UFC (although traditional Jiu-jitsu does contain alot of armbars and submissions and shoot defences such as Tawara Gaeshi, both on and off the ground). But still many people ignore the arts anyway. I'm a big fan and long time reader of IKF, and often they feature many mixed stylist (usually JKD but others such as KI concepts) none of them to my recollection studies a traditional Japanese martial art. The only things that come close is Kempo Karate and Judo (which in my humble opinion becomes less of a martial art each year (sorry Judoka just my opinion)). Why not karate or TJJ?

Um...Kirves I study traditional Jiu-jitsu and we hardly do anything from wrist grabs. WE learn escapes from them early but then hardly ever see them, instead we train against punchs (straight and wild hooks), skinhead kicks, label grab and punch combo's, standing chokes, hairgrabs, strangles, bear hugs (front and behind/over and under arm), Do these never happen in a fight? I hardly see the wrist grab, and then its combined with a punch. Jiu-jitsu may have started in battle field techniques, but it evolved in times of peace in Japan such as the Tokugawa and Bakumatsu era. Many samurai families had lost the right to carry the two swords, and in many places it was forbidden to draw weapons (it was considered impolite to your host to decapitate someone.) Karate was evolved to protect the higher classes of okinawa against civilian attack in the streets not on battle fields, so wrist grabs less of an issue. Sorry for the confusion, there is nothing wrong with southern styles, but their training methods are based in forms and drills similar to Karate yet they seem to enjoy better press. And Philopine arts excepting there weapons defences and uses have shown me little that Karate or Jiu-jitsu do not have in some form (but the I never studied it so I can't be sure). I was just using such arts as they have not be famously tested in the UFC or K-1, yet still draw in more JKD and such than Japanese styles. Why? I know it should not bother me as I'm doing styl;es i enjoy, but it seems like these arts are being unfairly ignored.

Just a quick question for all, especially Jeet Kune Do stylists and such. What is wrong with Japanese martial arts. Many people cross-train these days, but few of the well known multi stylists such as Joseph Simonet and others train in traditional Japanese martial arts such as Karate and Traditional Jiu-jitsu. There is much Philpino style and Muay Thai and BJJ and such. But why not Japanese arts. I train in both Karate and TJJ and find that it holds everything I want, and has enough shrewd street techniques to keep me safe. Sure its not good for UFC or such but that not I want. So why do few train in such arts. Its not just Combat effectiveness as many train in Tai CHi or Southern Shaolin styles, and Philopine are are not any more effective that Japanese (i think ). So whats the stigma against these styles.

I am so envious. I'd love to try that but nothuing around to try. There is a Tae Kwon Do club, but I've already tried that. It was fun, but I'd like something different. Maybe I could set something up at uni.

Ver good point Kirves. And it few people realise it. So often we hearBJJ is better than this or that because nobody has beaten the Gracies or whoever. Well since few people have the raw talent, genius or dedication to training of these people, I'm not surprised. It is not the atheletes and competetion winners that determines the style it is we. We are the ones who train as any normal person would and we're the one who are the mugged and victims of bar room skin head. We make up most of the style's members. Competetions and any encounter are not about the styles but the person who uses it and how he uses it. It is the arm swinging that bangs in nails, not the hammer.

As a thought, does the MMA out there think that we humble karateka would stand a much better chance if we found more effective ways to deal with shoot attacks and were more practised with them (personally I could try a Tawara gaeshi but I'd rather not as I'm small). I know it takes much more, but what how much would you say our chances would improve if we could do that much at least and well.

Naihanchi. Hm I usually think of Naihanchi as a close combat kata, best for clinch fights with lots of pulling and pushing and grabbing etc. This is because Naihanchi contains a lot of close combat strikes such as elbows and uppercuts. Also the stance is very similar to the Wing Chun training stance (a style with which karate has a shared ancestry and is famous for close combat fights, but this is more evident in Teisho). The stance provide a rooted base making it harder to be unblanced and the side steps are a tactical move to put the enemy of balance as in such clinches (excluding Muay Thai and other trained fighters) there is alot of linear pushing and such so sidestep would be clever. Also Choki Motobu said that this kata is all you need to be a good fighter in realistic brawl, and that sort of clinches are common in bar room brawls. The bunkai I use from this kata are based on this idea, and I'll see if I can give an example later, but I think I've written enough for now. Just my theories on the kata, my opinion, but it seem feasible and works in sparring (and on the street but I don't really want to talk about that). By the way is this just about Naihanchi as ever since I started Traditional Jiu-jitsu I've been seeing alot of throws and locks in kata (tai otoshi in Sandan, etc), whats everyone else think. And has anyone thought of a bunkai for the weird bit in Matsu kaze.

Here's that link https://www.tska.co.uk Should help you.

I practise Shokukai, but I also practise Wado-ryu at uni, so what I'm about to say is a comparison between those two styles as I trained in them. Shokukai is a much more simplified form of karate than Wado-ryu or Shotokan. All basic line traing is done in a high, mobile front stance and the kata have emphasis on the kiba-dachi and short cat stance (neko ashi dachi). Most non-kata training is done in set of pre-set combinations of techniques with real self-defence applications (so less repeating of one tecniques in a line, except my sensei like to come up with complex block, kick, punch lines because he liked to wtach us get confused, also teach us to do not think). There is much emphasis on pad work to develop power and technique (something I see little of at my Wado-ryu club) and a lot of competion sparring. The moves all emphasise hip movement (a pelvic thrust made to push a little more power into the mae geri, full twist of the hip and shoulder for more force and range in gyaku tsuki) so square shoulders that I've seen in Wado and Shoto are a no no. The katas are mostly taken from shito ryu and so differ quite from what I saw in other styles with higher stances (more of the okinawan method in the kata). The main kata (that I remember off the top of my head) are Pinan kata (all 5) Matsu kaze Annanku Jin Bassai dai Jirokuno Suparimpai Nipaipo Chinto Sienshin Kururunfa And other that I cant remember sionce I only know up to Matsu Kaze. Hope that helps. I know a good site on Shokukai and i'll post the link in a min.

Bows to kakushite. Good points. I agree wholeheartedly.

Why does everyone constanlt mention the Gracies. They are not exactly ordinary people. They are AMAZING martial artists, the like of which have not been seen since the old masters of course they are going to beat nearly everyone. Says about as much as saying a horse will beat a disease-ridden donkey in a race.

Thing is karate has a high discipline building and spiritual/character development, and so its not likely to change becasue of a sport. Itsb the old Karate-do not Karate-jitsu chestnut!

Not at all. You're right UFC is as close to a street fight a sport can get (except in multiple opponents but that had nothing to do with the current debate.) This conversation had been had thousands of time by people who wish to think their art is superior to all others. To me its different strokes, different means to the same end. I just don't think going "Ha Ha" is a good example of the martial arts mindset.

It is but also consider the hip throws diravatives especially Harai Goshi

Uh who? me?

No one says UFC fighters can't fight. But there is a direpensy in the rules that favours grapplers, however some strikers have over come this such as Maurice Smith. I do use more knee strikes than previously, not because of UFC, but because of my own studies in Traditional Jiu-jitsu as well as karate. Strike like knee are idea to blend in head and arm locks and chokes. But I still use knife hands, and kicks. But I use low kicks to the knees, groin and ribs, and as finishes from arm locks.

Kata will not make you a better fighter. Hm awfully sure of yourself when judging something you've never done. It won't help on its own, but it is part of the method. And if you think kata is a preset defence against specific techniques, you're wrong! Yeah I'll admit you got me on the machete thing.,]

So the Wai Kru involves none of the Muay Thai concepts and principles. You sure? Spiritualism yes, but they say that about alot of kata. The stuff about the Wai Kru I got from an article (I think in IKF) by some Muay Thai master from Thailand. But then it was a while ago. Hm for the ring. Yeah maybe kata wouldn't work. But kata is not about the ring or about sport, it contains the pinciples and techniques of karate to be used in a no holds barred fight. So if you want to win in the ring or sslash with a sword, maybe katas not for you. However if you found what Muay Thai techniques worked in fight in which combinations, you may want to preserve them. Thats where kata is from. Hey whatever works for you.

There is kata in Muay Thai. Theres that weird dance that traditonal Thai fighters do (I forget the name) but in the movements are all the condensed principle and movements of muay thai. The thing is kata is not the preffered training method of Muay Thai and kali. They have other methods, horses for courses as the saying goes. But if you know and understand kata it can be of use to any martial artist, (perhaps you could create a kali kata?) just as thai pads can. Up to you how you train but kata is only a waste of time if you don't understand or do it properly never for any other reason.

This is exactly what it says on the tin. Does anyone know matsu kaze kata or know a video or site that describes it. I was learning this kata but had never finished it as I swapped styles because of university. I kkindo of miss it. Thanks to anyone who can help

I like random attack exercises too. I do them alot at my jiu-jitsu class in V's and circles. Really gets the blood and adrenaline going, and shows you where your techniques is sucky. We used to do alot of spontaneous defences in Ippon Kumite at my old Shokukai club. BUt now I'm at uni and doing Wado-ryu we all do oyos yakosokus and jions. Pre-arranged drills. Which are good but prevents spontaneity and experimentation. Its a shame not many clubs try such measures you're very lucky.

Spirit ni rei!! Very wise words there, everyone should take note.

Ah ippon seoi nage in pinan snadan. However ther is also ogoshi (hip throw) and tai otoshi (body drop in the same kata) However the most common in kata is the simple yank, when you use age uke to srike the enemies jaw and then twist while pulling him down. Look for de-ashi barai or kouchi gari in naihanchi kata.

Yes hakama look cool, they are often worn in ju-jitsu for the hiding of foot movement as mentioned, and also because jitsu is a samurai art and the samurai had a difinite dress code accroding to their class. back to the real question. I take both karate and jiu-jitsu and I find that JJ helps me to understanhd karate more and vice versa. However it is hard to meld to two together as often hard karate strikes interupt the momentum used in throws, but locks are good.

Personally I find the actual defensive moveemnt for things like gendan barai and soto uke, are not in the chamber or the power, but in the sudden twist performed at the end of the block. This movement teaches you to parry and deflect without having to whack the arm away inefficiently. That said there is a principle called bokkyo, where the block is used offensively to attack the attacking limb. But how often is that used? As fotr kata i think the usual gedan barai (the ones with a sharp 180 turn preceding it as seen often in the pinans) are throws. The preceding movement grabs hold and the twist and gedan is turning and throwing them down. Just my opinion, it seems logical.