delta1

Welcome! What kind of TKD? Sport, traditional, combative, ... ?

Hi back atcha! Glad you found a school you like, and glad you found us.

Welcome, too! Allways good to have more experience and experiences here!

Hello! Glad to hear you aren't french! Not much going on here now, at least not as much as usual. Good to have you here!

Depends on which Bond. Pierce Brosnan couldn't outfight Ms. Moneypenny. But on the whole, James Bond would beat Batman and never get a hair out of place. When it was over, the Robin would say something like "Holy sound effects Batman, what are all those 'POW's, 'WHACK's, 'SMACK's and 'OOF's floating around your head?" Let's also not forget that, in addition to more and better babes, Bond has more hit songs. They all suck, but hits they are! All Batman has is 'NA-NA-na-na-na-na-na-na- BAT-MAN!' Never even made the charts. Sad, really .

Criminal courts decide guilt or innocence, then sentance you if guilty. One or both of the combatants may end up there. Guilt or innocence is based on proof beyond reasonable doubt. Civil courts will apportion guilt, and liability, based on prepondrance of the evidence. In deciding if you used excess force, the courts will look at several factors, including but not limmited to: * your ability and training relative to his * your health, size and strength relative to his * his stated or demonstrated intent (and just attacking you does not demonstrate intent to do seriouse harm, sad too say) * were weapons, multiple attackers, or other seriouse factors involved * past history (of both or between both of you) * and most importantly, what level of force or threat did he use against you Unles you can prove you had good reason to believe he would have kept going and was a continued seriouse threat, the courts don't care whether or not he would have, only that he did or didn't. They want facts, not 'he might have' or 'I thought he might'. Personally, I think that if you assault someone without reason you have morally given up your 'rights' and placed yourself at the mercy of his good judgement and sense of fair play. Within reason, it should be left to the person attacked how far he goes in dealing with a violent jerk. But the question was about the law, and to date no politicians have consulted me about the kind of laws they enact. So we are for the most part stuck with a lot of stupid laws that do more to condemn the victim than the aggressor. Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. But, on the other hand, I've never lost in court when I represented myself. I believe it was Chief Justice Black (could be wrong, though) that said 'Lawyers today are trained to do two things, plea bargain and loose.' He was pretty much right, in my overinflated opinion!

I've worked out with several different schools in several different styles. My experiences have allways been positive. Most schools, at least in this area, like to have different stylists train with them as it gives their students something different to look at besides the same moves from the same people. The only school around here that is 'closed' to outsiders is the Shotokan school. Sorry to hear one of the butts you ran into was an EPAK guy. But every organization has a few. I just figure that if they can't put what they have up for comparison, you aren't missing much not seeing them. My guess is this guy would have been even more terrified if another EPAK instructor or senior walked in.

That is excellant advice. Any art, to be effective, must be tailored to the student- after the student learns his base. I think that not teaching strikes to the head or kicks to the groin are failings of particular schools or organizations, not of the style as a whole. Same goes for in close fighting and flow. I just don't buy the concept that TKD has to be practiced at a distance, going from one jerky motion to the next only aftr a suitable pause. And targets are wherever they are unguarded, weapons are anything you can effectively get to the target without opening yourself up too bad.

I hope you are all having a good Christmas! I'm working today, but still it's good. (Pay's better, any way! ) And I'll be off in time to try Sai's advice (posted elsewhere) on over indulgence. You all have a great day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yep, guys, I do fight from the stance I'm comfortable with (neutral bow). But the principles taught in the traditional stances do transfer to my fighting stance, even though the traditional stances themselves I find really limmited (at least at this stage of my training). I just wondered if any of you had found some uses that I might should be on the lookout for. Proper use of principles is, to me, the main thing in any art. So I enjoy learning the "proper" way to do a move, then transfering the principles to a more practical move. This sort of leads into the question "why did they originally teach the moves that way?" Did they have a use that has been lost or made obsolete over time? Some might have been designed to counter a prevalent style of fighting at a particular time, or to overcome a type of body armor. But whatever the reason, these moves were designed for seriouse combat, even if later modified for todays tournaments. So there has to be some useful basis in reality for this stuff. Just my viewpoint.

That's it. Ex: assume either a cat or a back stance, left foot forward (we'll do it static for simplicity). Now, do a left inward block and hold it there. Bring your right across your body so the fist is in front of your left leg. Palm can be facing in or out, depending on several factors, but palm in is probably more common. The right arm is out from your body at the same angle and distance as the left arm with the inward block. Depending on what you want to do with the block, elbows can be anywhere from touching to (more commonly) about a hand span apart. Now, look mean and hold that pose until a photographer for BB Mag comes along! Actually, the wall block (Kenpo universal block, Taiji energy ball, etc.) may be used statically, as in block and stop momentarily to either block or positionally check. It is also used in transition, where the motion does not stop. The path of the arms into and out of position are a clearing, covering movement. You come out into any other block, strike, check, pull, parry, break, lock, bar, trap, or whatever. The continuous movement, as well as the opposing forces as you move your arms apart, adds power. The block can also be used as either simultaneouse blocks, strikes, or block/strike combo's.

tufrthanu, thanks. So that wrap is not a wall block, but just part of the downward block? How do you do your wall/universal/double inward block? The "pulling with one arm while striking down with the other" that you describe is a power principle American Kenpo would call opposing forces. It does add power, but if you do the wall block to the downward block as one smooth movement you would get the same effect. I asked my chief instructor about it, and he said the first school he was with was the traditional style, and they did it the way it was depicted in the book. He said it is just another method, and either way works for him, though he likes his current system better (no big surprise). Of course, with a Kenpo base, I'm partial to the continuous motion/flowing and covering also. My big problem is comeing to chamber with my non blocking hand. I allways tend to come to a check instead- great in a fight, bad form in a hyung. Going through the cat is done as a smoothe transition also. We don't stop in it, but they like to see it in there. That too is consistant with my base (AK), so I'm used to that. Another way to think of it is as a crescent step. I didn't get to ask more about the blocks tonight because we got in to a lengthy discussion and workout on the reasons and applications for the crescent or cat transition in moving between stances (closes the groin, checks, sweeps,...).

Nope, I wouldn't say that at all. It is definately good to consider all the possibilities, and it is a tough decission to make. My opinion, I'd be more worried about him escalating to weapons after he's beat me senseless and didn't get what he wanted. The revenge factor is more difficult, but you may face that for having called the police even though you didn't hit them. Tough call. I'd tend to act and deal with the consequences later, but then I've put myself in some bad situations before with that attitude. This may be a case of danged if you do and durned if you don't. I hope it all works out for you, but without first hand experience in the conditions where you are it would be pointless for me to make definate recomendations. Good luck.

I just got a couple of books by Jhoon Rhee that covers the first three hyungs, and of course I now have some questions. The class I joined is not a traditional TKD class, so there are some things that are done differently. One glaring difference is in the hyungs when turning to face a new direction and executing a block. Ex: start from a ready stance. Look left, transition through a cat with a wall block, then step out into a front stance as you execute a left low block. Now, we do the full cat stance (in transition), and the wall block is similar to a Kenpo universal block- right inside downward palm up block and left inward block, both out away from the body. This clears and covers you as you turn, and positions the left hand/arm for the downward block. Mr. Rhee does this initial turn into what looks like a back stance, though the rest of the turns flow through a cat. I can see the bennifits of practicing that stance transition and contrasting it to the cat. But he also does the wall block (if it is a wall block and not just a part of the downward block) by wraping his arms close to his body. His left fist is by his right ear, and his right fist is at his left lower rib cage. This is consistant throughout the hyung. This position would not give you any protection from an incomeing strike at a time when you are extremely vulnerable, turning into an opponent. It also seems to set up a lot of tension, and the block has to travel out and around, covering a lot of distance. It does force you to put an in and back angle on the block, which is good. But you can do that from the left inward position too. Is there a reason for doing this move with the "wrap"? I hope that was clear. I'll ask about this at class tonight, but I'd like some input from some of you traditionalists (and others) also. Thanks.

Sai, you are my type of holiday party animal! Have a merry one, and the rest of you too! Oh, and I'm sorry to hear that some of you are deprived of the joys of egg-nog (which isn't, wothout the alcohol). But try to have a good one any how .

ad, sorry to hear about this, but in the end it could be a positive thing for you. Your problem wasn't courage, since you had the guts to not submit. The problem seems to be that you did not have an attitude of proactive commitment. That is something that is seriously lacking in a lot of martial arts training these days, where too many schools focus too much on the spirituality of the arts. The spiritual may outlast the physical, but it gets the crap beat out of it in the meantime! You might try to incorporate some attitude and awareness into your training. Acknowlege that there are dangers out there, people who are willing to destroy your humanity for a few dollars (quid), or even for a thrill; and it can happen to you. (That should be easy at this point.) You are legally justified and moraly obligated to take whatever action is necessary to defend yourself and others as soon as you are aware that a threat is immanent. In this case, a good pre-emptive and proactive action would have been to go to the bus driver as soon as you saw them accost someone else. If they tried to stop you, in the face of multiple assailants commiting a serries of violent crimes (and the threat of violence is violence), you would have been justified in useing any ammount of force up to the point that they were incapacitated. I don't know about your laws, but I can't immagine them not allowing you to defend yourself in this case. But to do this, you have to have a mindset that says "I will act if necessary." Another part of this mindset is understanding the effects of the adrenaline dump, and how to deal with it. I used to have some really good links on this, but unfortunately they were lost to a worm. Maybe some of the members here could share some of their links with us. Any way, it is heartening to hear this has encouraged rather than discouraged you. Good luck.

Kirves, the FMA's have a lot of traps, locks and controls. They have some good grappling, both stand up and ground work, if you can find a school that teaches it. If you can find a Kali Jukune Do school anywhere within traveling distance, it would be worth looking into. But they aren't that common. Modern Arnis does a lot of locks and they are much easier to find.

Diversify! Learn to do the cross both with the step thru and the stance change, and let those maneuvers set you up for the rear leg power kick. Add a new demension to your fighting skills.

If you're going to "block" a low hand strike (I prefer the term 'recieve', but...) you need that check in place. For most kicks, move. Leg checks are good for attacks to your base. 'Blocks' to kicks are mostly to move or position him- that's one meaning of 'recieve'. If you are talking about the non threatening postue you take prior to engagement, then yes, I might keep both high. If you are talking about a real life encounter of the threatening type, whether he or me does it, the fight will probably rapidly go to the close contact (elbow)range.

Yes, they are. But since I've seen quite a few ma's that seem to get stuck in that 'fists up' stance, I specified that I keep mine open. That's one of the changes I make as my "range to opponent" decreases to very close. And one of the reasons is that I like to throw elbows in close (not just elbows, but they are a major in close weapon). Elbow strikes are good in close as the double as checks or blocks as well. The both hands up guard supports elbow strikes, and also brings the guard in tight for when things are happening fast. But at medium and long range, I like to keep that middle check in place. At distance, the 'boxers' guard works for boxers because they don't have to worry about kicks or low blows. It works for grapplers and other combative styles that fight from a crouch because their middle targets are back and covered by their body position. But for stand up styles, you need to keep a middle check in place until you can make and maintain contact. Also, because of my primarily 45' stance, I don't have to reach for my blocks. And the lead hand is not always the high hand. Another time I tend to keep my hands up, as well as back out of range, is when weapons are involved (sticks, knives, etc.). Footwork and evasion is the name of the game more than blocking (as in running like a dog if it's for real ). That's just how I do it, but it seems to work for me.

Agreed! You can get a lot out of books, if they are clearly written, well illustrated, and not too complicated. But you'll never get the same understanding of basics as from an actual class experience.

Kirves, you don't say what striking art(s) you do, but most have stand up grappling in their system if you look hard enough. I know several people who have used different striking styles effectively in both police and security work, where they operate under the same constraints you listed. So you might not need to go to another style if you first look deeper into what you already do. Also, you don't say what training you've gotten for this job. If you weren't trained in forceful aprehension and detention techniques, you might consider some sort of police training. Your employer may be able to enrol you in an academy, or there are several private schools and contractors. I've trained with and dummied for police officers, and they have some good moves (to which I now know the counters ). Their stuff is designed to be effective, but quickly learned, and meets your (thier) requirements. This would be a good way to quickly get a practical base, and give you time to evaluate other arts and then train up to a good level of competance. Failing that, some of your local police might want a training partner and be willing to teach you. Typically, the ones who want to continue to train will already be in an extra martial arts program any way, which would kill both birds with the proverbial single stone. You get effective, job specific training as well as a new style, all in one convenient package. Just some thoughts. I don't envy anyone in high profile security work these days. It's tough enough without the surveilance, biased or ignorant witnesses, and sheister lawyers. Another option might be to get a job where you man a sleeping- I mean perimeter watch post.

Whatever I feel like at the time. My guard changes, depending on who I'm fighting, what I'm trying to do, range to opponent, phase of the moon,... . Generally, I keep my hands loose and open, not too close but not too far out. It changes as I move (and sometimes when I don't), with direct movements (no flourishes or fancy crap), and one hand covers high, the other low. Arms are usually held at compounding 45' angles.

Sort of. It is a foot maneuver, not a stance (though it can stop in or transition to a stance). It is very fast, and your purpose in using it would be to keep him from closing the distance and/or to get a dominant angle or position yourself. I agree that if you do it wrong, or let him get too close, you could be in trouble. But even in close the maneuver can be useful. It can step through into a forward or reverse bow, giving stability and a solid platform to absorb his force if necessary. You can twist out, redirecting his energy and adding power to your counter. The wider step gives you room to bring a knee into play as you bait him in and steal his momentum. We could play 'what if' here all day. In the end, it's a chess game where timeing is as important as technique, power and speed. If I let a grappler get too close (crossed or not), and blow my counter, I'm going to end up playing his game any way. I've sparred hard contact with ground option against grapplers, and one thing you learn is that nothing is certain, from either side. They don't allways get the takedown, your fancy defenses don't allways work, and usually it's just butt ugly, with the ugliest butt comeing out on top. Any how, my point wasn't to take anything away from the grapplers. I just wanted to point out something you guys had apparently overlooked. And remember, even if it goes wrong for you- "A bad day training is better than a good day at the golf course."

exactly - you're only really mobile to one side, not both. I have a better idea of where you'll go. You guys ever hear of a crossover step? Can be done off either foot to almost any direction on the clock. Only thing you can't do is step straight through your other leg. It's also deceptive- positions you for a twist, back kick, reversing motion, redirection or angling maneuvers. And the foot maneuver itself can be used as either a check or as a weapon. 'Course, you could allways just hop any direction you want, then go ahead and kick.