Wastelander

I've been fairly quiet about having left, unless organizational topics come up. I considered writing a public announcement about the whole thing, but it just seems like a bunch of unnecessary drama. I'm sure that, eventually, someone in the organization is going to come across a post or interview where I discuss it, and it will cause drama then, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. The payment for rank is definitely a limiting factor for a lot of people (including myself), so I totally get that. The man who officially put me up for Sandan after my Sensei passed away had actually put off his 6th Dan for several years for that very reason, although he did end up paying for both the 6th Dan and a Shihan license, in the end. It's honestly always seemed strange to me that rank costs more as you go higher--the tests tend to get progressively shorter (or nonexistent, eventually), and you have less and less to prove over time, so what are you paying for? Not the time of the testing panel, certainly, and not to prove you are dedicated, since you would already have been training for quite a long time.

Looks like Shinzato Masahiro is listed as a legitimate 9th Dan in my Okinawan Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do Association book, although it looks like his lineage is tied to Miyahira, rather than directly through his father to Chibana. Still, Miyahira taught solid Shorin-Ryu.

Yes. I'm mostly checking if is a legitimate school. The problem with "fake" schools appears just after 2 or more years of commitment. Before that not much can be noticed. Is there any way to check if Shinzato has trained with Tokuda and Chibana. In Brazil we have a lot of problems with fake schools. In Chibana page inside Shinshukan website (https://shinshukan.com.br/site/choshin-chibana/ ) we can read the following Mestre Chibana teve mais de 5000 alunos e entre eles o Mestre Katsuya Miyahira que foi seu auxiliar e Mestre Yoshihide Shinzato (10º Dan), este considerado o mais importante Mestre fora de Okinawa, fundador da União Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do do Brasil e da International Union Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do Federation, entidade que é formada pelas mais importantes federações do estilo Shorin-Ryu do mundo todo. Freely translated by me: Master Chibana had more than 5000 students and among them Master Katsuya Miyahira that was your auxiliar and Master Yoshihide Shinzato (10 dan), the latter considered the most importante master outside Okinawa, founder of Brazilian Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do Union and International Union Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do federation, institution formed by the most important federations of Shorin-Ryu style around the world. I could not find any reference to this International Union Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do Federation, except from websites in portuguese, that could be only echoes of the original Shinshukan website by it's own students. I would go further the portuguese wikipedia article Chosin Chibana (https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choshin_Chibana) makes reference to Yoshihide Shinzato. While the most complete article in english (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C5%8Dshin_Chibana), makes no such reference. It looks like the portuguese version was crafted only to endorse what is on brazilian websites. In the page about Yoshihide Shinzato (https://shinshukan.com.br/site/yoshihide-shinzato/), it list some titles, among them there are: 8th dan World Karate Federation, 9th dan Kobudo Shin-Shu-Kan, 10th dan Okinawa Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do, 10th dan Karate-Do Hanshi and Kobu-do Hanshi. The Shorin-Ryu wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Drin-ry%C5%AB) do not list Shinshukan as a legitimate school. By any chance, any of those institutions provides a way to see all granted degrees, specialy the very high ones as 8th, 9th and 10th dan and Hanshi title? Is there any way to verify those informations? I had my share of problems with those kind of school. When reaching high degrees you start to notice the lack of consistency in techniques, also you become isolated, and, if for some reason, you need to change schools, your degree isn't recognized anywhere else. You could probably contact the WKF, as they are a large organization, but I would argue that being ranked by the WKF means little to nothing in terms of legitimacy, beyond the fact that they are willing to follow the WKF's guidelines for competition. I could take a look at my books at home, sometime, and see if he's listed as a student of Chibana anywhere in them, but just because he isn't listed somewhere doesn't mean he wasn't. That said, he most definitely wasn't one of Chibana's senior students--Miyahira Katsuya, Nakazato Shugoro, and Nakama Chozo generally being considered to be the inheritors of his system. With that in mind, his 10th dan ranking certainly didn't come from Chibana, although that doesn't make it illegitimate, either, as a great many legitimate Okinawan instructors have been promoted to 9th and 10th dan after their instructor's passing by vote of their contemporaries, or an overseeing organization of some kind. I have to slightly disagree with you on that. Martial arts has lost it's combative usability in modern days. It's mostly for health and tradition. For health I can pretty much run in a mill and that would be ok. By ignoring the historical side we are losing (roughly) 50% of what a martial art can offer. I get what you're saying here, and you're not wrong, but my point was more that you are unlikely to train there for any length of time if you don't like the way they train, and it doesn't line up with your goals, regardless of its history.

Well, I would say it exists, because you found it and it has a website. If you're asking whether it is "legitimate," I'm afraid I can't say much about that except that Shinzato apparently trained with Tokuda and Chibana, so he should have learned fairly solid karate. You'll have to see if you like the training, though--that's more important than the historical aspects!

Welcome to the forum, and welcome back to the martial arts!

Congratulations, and many thanks for all your contributions over the years!

Welcome to the forum!

Honestly, nothing you can strike with power is going to be quiet--it just isn't suited to apartments. My recommendation would be to get one of the spring-loaded reflex bags on weighted bases, and work on your accuracy and reaction time. For hitting hard, invest in a good kicking shield and find a friend willing to hold it for you on occasion.

I saw that WCA is lead by Ian Abernathy (Big fan of his bunkai breakdowns and own some of his dvds) Ive always liked his approach to bringing practicality back to Karate, but I have to say, I swear the guy rarely blinks his eye in his videos!! Seems like a solid associatiin thats UK based I've seen orgs like his, and I believe Stuart Abernethy (for lack of a better analogy, he's the Iain Abernethy of TKD...) has or is is part of an organization that is set up for like minded Martial Artists to have a path of communication and to set up training, seminars, discuss protocols for testing their methods, etc. I like the idea of joining organizations like this, that are more focused on things like training methods and goals, as opposed to determining a course curriculum or technical foundations. That's why I like the WCA. It doesn't dictate your curriculum, but it does outline what a practical combative curriculum should include, as far as training methods and general topics. For example, they don't tell you what kata you have to teach, or even that you have to teach kata, but if you DO teach kata, then you need to be teaching applications for the movements of those kata that can be used against realistic attacks that occur in self defense situations, or in combat sport scenarios (depending on your approach). If you teach a striking art, you need to have your students actually hitting things, like pads and heavy bags, not just punching and kicking the air. You have to have some kind of resistant sparring. If you claim to teach self-defense, then you need to be educating students about awareness, threat mitigation, de-escalation, escape and evasion methods, and local self-defense law. Etc., etc. That sort of org leaves you free to develop your curriculum with any material you want, really, but it sets a baseline standard that other people can see and know that, if they were to visit or switch to your dojo, even if the curriculum was totally different, they would still be learning practical combative skills. From an instructor's perspective, it also helps you identify like-minded individuals who might be interested in some cross-training, or collaborative projects, or co-hosting events, and the like. Now, for what it's worth, I will likely also be joining the Bugeikan officially on my next trip to Okinawa, but their only requirements are; 1) train Shuri Sanchin, and 2) don't lie about what you learned, and where you learned it. Pretty laid back, all things considered

Agreed! Fighters use these suits specifically to shed water weight before a fight so they can make a lower weight class, and we've seen how dangerous weight-cutting can be. Sweating more does NOT equal burning more calories, but DOES increase your risk of overheating and becoming dehydrated.

Your comparison is sort of an apples-to-oranges one, in my view. Sprinting is defined as "the competitive athletic sport of running distances of 400 meters or less," and it's implied that you will be running as fast as you possibly can as part of that. HOW you run as fast as you possibly can, while competitively running a distance of 400 meters or less, doesn't change the fact that you are sprinting. Karate, on the other hand, is a martial art developed for self-protection and law enforcement/security personnel, which included techniques for striking, kicking, grappling, locking, strangling, and restraining opponents--techniques which were put together into drills that became kata, so that they could be easily repeated and practiced when a partner wasn't available, while also recording the curriculum of a system. Modern karate has REMOVED the vast majority of what defines karate. A better running analogy would be if the Olympic Committee decided to remove the hurdles from the 100m hurdles, because the competitors will be able to run faster, so that's an improvement, and then they still call it the 100m hurdles. I'm not against (and I don't believe Okinawan instructors are against) applying modern sport science and kinesiology to karate, but I would prefer to see it applied to karate, not light kickboxing and dance performed in a keikogi.

I joined the World Combat Association (a style-agnostic org) while I was still a member of the Shorinkan (a Shorin-Ryu-specific org), and it didn't cause a problem, although I did eventually leave the Shorinkan because of how they treated me. Whether it is acceptable or not is going to vary from school to school, because some are very big on "loyalty," in whatever form they expect it. In general, though, I would say that it's not that uncommon to belong to a style-specific organization and one or more style-agnostic organizations. The reason for this is typically for participation in tournaments, because you will generally get discounts on attendance or additional insurance coverage by being members of the organization that is hosting/sponsoring the tournament. Non-competition-based organizations are sometimes more money-focused, as Bob pointed out, although some, like the WCA, are more about connecting like-minded individuals so that beneficial material can be easily shared, as well as setting a standard for those who are traveling or relocating to use to find a new school to train at.

I did! Thank you for the information, I didn't know that. I thought the two were 1-to-1. This is interesting, I didn't learn it with a hand held close to the body. In the version I learned, the hand is held midway on the other arm (close to inside of the elbow) as a way to load up the next redirection. That's the arm I'm referring to as being "close to your body," still--it's held across your body, rather than being held out in front of you. If it isn't holding onto the opponent's arm, then there are much better places to hold it, since your opponent will probably want to punch you again.

I believe what you consider to be "modern karate" and what Mick and I see as "modern karate" are different things, and we are looking at them from different perspectives. You seem to be talking about karate in the context of competitive fighting, based around popular formats that currently exist, and we're talking about karate in the context of its historical intent as a self-defense and law enforcement system of fighting. Most of the "modern karate" out there is what you see in WKF/Olympic competitions, and honestly it's just a shallow and inaccurate expression of what karate is supposed to be--all flash and no substance--not just the kata presentations, but the sparring, as well. I will say that Karate Combat (if that's what you're talking about with "combat karate?") is not really any better, except for the fact that competitors are allowed to actually hit each other. Going along with that, even styles like Kyokushin, Enshin, Ashihara, etc., really only have one thing they can say that makes them more effective than other styles, and that's the full contact aspect. They are all still just fractions of what karate should be. For the most part, these formats have simply taken maybe 5-10 techniques and made them into their whole fighting system, slap some kata onto the curriculum, and called it good. All that said, there ARE people who are working to bring karate back to its roots as an effective fighting system, based on self-defense and law enforcement methods, and incorporating those methods into various types of sparring to develop skill in applying them. While this is getting more popular, and that's a good thing, there is no widespread competition circuit to promote it, so it is still, by far, much less prevalent than the "modern karate" I have described, above.

I don't work them extensively, but I do incorporate them into my training to a degree, and I think it's important for my students to learn about small-surface strikes. They are really a long-term option, though, due to the strengthening and conditioning involved, so I don't really bother with it until brown belt. They can definitely be very effective, though--I know that the first time my Sensei kicked me with a toe-tip kick, I felt like I had been stabbed. My go-to is keikoken, personally. As for medicine, I have used Thai Plai based liniments, as well as Dit Da Jow, for bruising and such, but not specifically for toughening my hands, because I'm not looking for my hands to become calloused and gnarly. I normally just use a CBD-infused lotion on my hands.

Well, I'm going to assume that you mean Pinan Shodan, rather than Heian Shodan, since Heian Shodan is actually Pinan Nidan. The three steps forward have you working shuto-uke, if that's the case. A sequence of three techniques repeated is generally telling you to practice the transition from one side to the other. First, you transition from a left shuto-uke to a right shuto-uke, then you transition from a right shuto-uke to a left shuto-uke, so really, your three techniques are actually just one drill, done on both sides. Now, as to how you apply the individual shuto-uke, that's going to vary from person to person, school to school, style to style, etc. Based on my understanding of kata application, however, the hand held close to your body should be holding the opponent's arm, and the arm out in front of you should be attacking the opponent, such that your single technique (shuto-uke) is following the principle of kobo ittai (simultaneous attack and defense) without having a shi-te (dead hand). If you play with that overarching concept, you'll find plenty of ways to get to such a position, and then you just have to figure out what might cause you to have to switch sides. Maybe the opponent blocked your counter strike? Maybe they simply moved? Maybe the punched you again? Or grabbed you? Etc.

I see what you're saying and I get that some people might see modern karate as straying away from traditions and cultural heritage, but I guess what I'm thinking about is what aspects of modern karate they're straying from and how much it really identifies a culture? Like I said earlier, I think American sport karate is a totally different martial art from Japanese or Okinawan karate. But I'm having a hard time seeing why someone who's dedicated to Okinawan karate would find it disrespectful of their culture to emphasize the parts of kata that Japanese kata competitions focus on. I think that competition kata elevates the kata scene and really showcases the maximum potential of the human body. Now, when it comes to fighting I guess the idea of point fighting being a game of tag that dilutes the old warrior spirit of traditional karate, I can see that, but point fighting and practical combat applications are two completely different elements of the same activity. Like floor exercises vs balance beam in gymnastics. What do you think? Would love to hear what aspects of modern karate you think puts old traditions at risk. It isn't ALL Okinawan karate instructors, because there are certainly plenty of them who are totally fine with the popularity and money involved in sport karate--they are human, after all--but there is dissent. Due to the focus on aesthetics and athleticism, the Japanese approach to kata has removed many of the body mechanics that karate uses (power generation, muchimi, chinkuchi, softness, etc) and has replaced them with things that look nicer, or are more physically demanding, but are not connected to any combative function. This also alters how the kata can be applied, which is the entire point of kata, originally--providing a template of practical fighting methods for people to use in drilling and sparring with partners. As for the sparring aspect, point karate and practical combat applications aren't really two different elements of the same activity--the former is a roughly 80 year old kickboxing sport that took about 5 karate techniques and put them into a Kendo-style ruleset, while the latter is karate. As to how it puts old traditions at risk; people would rather win trophies than learn how to fight and protect themselves. Physical activities with competitions are more popular than physical activities without them, and people who participate in physical activities based around competitions pretty much ONLY learn what will win competitions. In this case, that's crisp solo kata, completely fantastical application demonstrations, and a game of tag using just a handful of the techniques found in karate. This means that most people end up learning karate that is geared toward competition, and those who learn competition karate are almost exclusively going to learn things specifically geared toward winning competitions. Why should they learn those other techniques? They don't score any points. Some of them are completely illegal. Some of them you just can't do, because you're not allowed to be that close to your opponent. This leads to a loss of knowledge and material over time, because there is no one to teach it to. I know of an instructor on Okinawa who specifically said that he used to know old, realistic applications to the kata, but he hasn't taught them since the 60s, because people just want to do tournaments, and he's forgotten them. If the younger generations don't learn the material, then the karate that was developed on Okinawa will eventually die off, and only the karate that was re-worked by the Japanese will exist. Now, the capitalist argument to this is that the free market has decided that old-style karate no longer deserves to exist if modern tournament karate is what people want to do, but honestly that's just a depressing thought, to me.

That's kinda silly. However, I do see American sport karate as a different animal from Japanese and Okinawan karate. I remember coming up in the early 2000s when tricking first hit the scene and how American karate schools were making gigantic changes to traditional kata (yelling on every other move, ridiculous stances, etc.). The same argument could definitely be made when comparing Okinawan kata from Japanese competition kata. It's close, but different. Aesthetics clearly play a big role in the Japanese presentation, and if I'd have to pick a side in that tug of war, I'd say I prefer how the Japanese kata look despite training at an Okinawan karate club currently. Well, I guess bottom line I'm seeing, and correct me if I'm wrong, is it'll be alright to use a black uniform as long as I'm being respectful of the source material. I don't think it's silly for them to be upset at the loss of part of their cultural heritage, which they take great pride in, as it's being replaced with stuff that has nothing to do with the karate that their ancestors passed down to them--especially when it's still being called "traditional karate," as if it's been that way the whole time. I've seen people from Italy become enraged at how people and "Italian" restaurants cook Italian food for the same reason. The difference is that there are still tons of people in Italy who can cook traditional dishes properly, but the people on Okinawa who can teach the older methods of karate are dying off, because all the young people just want to compete in tournaments that are tailored to the Japanese approach to karate. The bottom line, though, as you said, is that you should be fine using a black uniform in your project. The only people who might get upset are some people with a very strong, militaristic, Japanese karate upbringing, who might be the type who tend to think that a white uniform is the only acceptable uniform, and that wearing any other color makes it "not karate."

Can you elaborate on the protest reason? Why are Okinawan karate practitioners protesting modern karate? What is it about modern karate that they're protesting? I'm working on a martial arts related art project with some friends, and for practicality's sake the black gi just works better for filming. The project is a bit of a tribute to many martial arts cultures, and we didn't want to offend Japanese karate by displaying a black gi. They feel that modern "traditional" karate has been driven so hard into sport territory that it is not really karate, anymore, essentially. An art that was developed for self-protection and security/law enforcement has been turned into a game of tag and dance for trophies, and I don't think they like the fact that so much material has been lost over the years because of that sport focus. If you use a black keikogi in your project, I suppose it is possible you will offend some hardcore Japanese karate practitioners, but Okinawan karate practitioners will likely not be bothered, unless the version of Okinawan karate they learned was heavily influenced by Japanese mentality. You have to remember that the keikogi is a rather new addition to karate--less than 100 years old, IIRC--and they only started using it to fit in with the Japanese martial arts culture so they could make a case for its preservation. Before that, they typically just trained in underwear, or shorts of some kind, if they weren't training in regular clothes. I doubt the Okinawans cared much what color the keikogi was when they adopted it--the Japanese are the ones who placed importance on the symbolism of the color white in the keikogi when it was developed for Judo by Kano Jigoro. Additionally, traditional Okinawan festival clothing that is worn for demonstrations of the arts, martial and otherwise, come in many different colors, including black.

Black keikogi are quite commonly used in kobudo training, because the weapons are often oiled and will stain white keikogi, and many karateka have simply taken to mixing/matching for their karate training, since the uniforms are otherwise the same. Additionally, there are some Okinawan instructors who have taken to using the black gi as sort of a protest against modern karate, and that's been spreading a bit. It's not disrespectful to the art, in any way, but of course wearing a uniform that your instructor doesn't want you to wear in class would be disrespectful, in that context. Personally, I have made my standard uniforms black, both for practicality and protest reasons. Women and girls tend to find that to be much more comfortable than white uniforms, and everyone likes the fact that they don't have to worry about the sweat stains and whatnot, as long as it's clean. I will say that I think most other colors are just unnecessarily garish, although I've seen some darker blues that are nice.

So...replacing a method of solo training with an entire other martial art devoted to partner training? That's kind of like replacing the jack in your car with a winch--yeah, the winch is useful, and with enough creativity you could use it to accomplish what the jack does, but it wasn't intended for that and it's kind of just a lot of extra work. Honestly, if your community is discussing replacing kata with Judo, entirely, I would say that they probably don't understand kata very well, probably do too much solo kata practice as it is, and don't intend for their students to train technique by themselves. I don't say that to be mean or offensive--not everyone cares about what the kata are for, or about people training outside of classes, so that may just not be their focus. Now, if the intent is to replace time spent on solo kata practice in class with time spent on Judo, I can see a case for that. Students don't need to spend an hour performing their kata solo to get better at fighting--they need to be drilling the techniques of the kata with partners, and implementing them into sparring. They should still get some time training them under instruction so they can work on fine tuning body mechanics and structure, without the chaos of another person being involved, but otherwise kata should be something you practice when you don't have a partner available. As for Jukado, I can't remember the details of Tegner's idea, but that's basically what Kudo/Daido Juku is.

I do, and I know plenty of other people who do, as well. Just because it isn't mainstream, these days, doesn't mean it isn't being done. This is interesting. You really poke people in the eyes (on purpose) and headbutt them in the face (on purpose) when sparring? Tell me more, this is really interesting, especially considering how even an unintentional eye poke usually stops a UFC match. I have never seen something like this. You make adjustments for safety, just like every other form of sparring. If you spar with gloves, mouthguards, and groin protectors, for example, you're making adjustments for safety. If you apply joint locks and chokes slowly enough for your partner to tap out, you're making adjustments for safety. If you stop elbows short, or slow them down, so you don't cut your partners open, you're making adjustments for safety. If you punch lighter to the head to avoid CTE, you're making adjustments for safety. The list goes on and on. There is NO form of sparring that is 100% realistic. In the case of eye pokes, I've done sparring with safety goggles, but honestly if you can reliably punch someone in the nose, you can poke them in the eyes at a distance by simply opening your hands, and you can get some extra target practice in on BOB or one of the handheld head-shaped targets, if you really want to. For close range, most of the time I just incorporate gouges by digging my thumb into the nerves beneath the cheekbone--it gets a similar response, without being dangerous, and if you can reach that spot, you can reach the eyes. Headbutts you just cut the striking action a bit short and then press your head into their head firmly, like you would do as part of clinch fighting. Again, if you can grind your head against their nose, you can headbutt them. To account for the impact, you can add the occasional headbutt into padwork drills, as well.

Karateka have always been involved in grappling arts of various types. Originally, it was tegumi/muto, and then Japanese jujutsu and Sumo, then Judo and Aikido. Historically, this has been a fairly standard practice. My Sensei liked to incorporate grappling/groundwork into our karate training pretty regularly, but some prefer to have students cross-train, because they can get a more focused education in grappling by training with an instructor who specializes in it. Nothing wrong with that, but I do think you need to incorporate it into your sparring. I do, and I know plenty of other people who do, as well. Just because it isn't mainstream, these days, doesn't mean it isn't being done. Why do we care what karate resembles? It has always had knees, elbows, clinching, and the like, so what does it matter if it resembles Muay Thai or MMA? It doesn't magically become a different art because you fight with the material the style was supposed to have in it all along. If anything, modern mainstream karate doesn't resemble karate, anymore. "Real fight karate" is much better represented by MMA, honestly. Admittedly, contextually, it would be better if the goal was to get off the ground, rather than stay on it, but still, it's the ruleset that allows the most karate material. Karate Combat is just a reboot of the same American kickboxing you mentioned. Heck, I just watched their promo for their next season, and it was pointed out how a double-leg takedown was illegal--that takedowns is literally in the books written by the founder of Shotokan, and he wasn't even known for being that good at fighting.

i'm guessing those seminars were primarily in the US? Being in Australia, I feel like it would put a lot of people off purely because of the expenses. Yes, this is in the US, but now I'm wondering if I misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking about the cost to the hosting school? The cost to attendees is definitely not the same--generally, the host sets the price per attendee in order to recoup the costs of bringing the instructor out, and depends on both the cost and the number of training hours. For example, a seminar that's just a couple hours might be $30-60. A weekend can range anywhere from $100 to $300, depending on who is teaching. Some special seminar events, like Jesse Enkamp's KNX, can cost more like $600, but that's pretty rare.

If your intent is simply to learn how to perform the solo kata for the enjoyment of it, rather than getting into its application, then video is a pretty good way to go. The nice thing about the pandemic has been that a lot of martial artists were forced to accept Zoom and other online teaching platforms, which makes other styles much more accessible than they once were. You can reach out to schools pretty much anywhere that teach the material you want to learn, and ask if they would do online private lessons for you, and they very well might. Outside of that, though, as Zaine mentioned, you can build a network with other schools and martial artists in your area and schedule regular cross-training sessions. That type of knowledge exchange is fun and educational, and you can get into a lot of material you may otherwise never even realize is there.