Himokiri Karate

In my town there is style called Shidokan. I realize its very similar name but not the same. But tell me about your styles origin. I actually love to hear about more unknown styles and how they came to be and not just who came with it but what series of events took place that gave birth to the philosophy of your school.

I always wondered if there was a school or style of karate that did not make it to modern times. I know that we have main styles and there are family styles that are more local and not nation wide.

Your not wrong, but let me offer a comparison. When I did Thai kickboxing, we were told to "hit as hard as you can" and now that I am training Taekwondo/Korean Karate, I am told by my instructor that I should "snap it real quick, dont worry about power" My best way to compare is, power kick does more damage but has a longer reload time. Speed base kick is more rapid and has a less reload time if that makes sense. Although one thing to mention is, lots of Korean martial artist tend to start with speed, proper mechanics, attention to detail and flexibility. Afterwards, they start adding more and more power to it. This is something I noticed from Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo. You're talking about two different ways of kicking. "Snap" implies "pulling," to me anyways, so you aren't delivering it all into the target. When executing techniques, does someone try to be slow on purpose? Especially if the result sought out to do damage? I guess we could take an example of watching guys kick in the UFC, or other MMA events. I don't think they are kicking slow, nor do I think they are "snapping" their kicks. Yet they are very fast. They want to follow through with their kicks...I guess this is what you mean by the "loading" time? Either way, the equation doesn't change, no matter how you are kicking: P=Fxd/t. I can agree with your explanation and it does make sense. The idea of a snap is not let it linger or go through but to hit and retract back while in Thai style, hit and go through with it. So both require speed/power which what you are saying is correct. I guess snap is more in spirit of volume and quickness and Thai is about maximum exertion of strike. One commits fully past their target and other looks to hit and return to position. Both can be fast and powerful in their own way.

How do Korean martial art orgs look at this type of scenario out of curiosity? I am only familiar with Karate orgs and their politics lol. They don't like it in a sense because for sake of marketing, they want everything to be Taekwondo. Now keep in mind that, Tang Soo Do was renamed Taekwondo to wash away the Japanese and Chinese identity so the Korean culture can have its own identity. To that end, some Tang Soo Do moves were modified and more kicking was added to the curriculum in order to show case a modernize resurrection of the ancient Korean art of Taekkyon. Of course they still wanted to hold on to the Karate tradition and belt system because it is too good for business but also it creates a structure. Of times, Hapkido is used as an umbrella term to teach non-taekwondo techniques. My school teaches taekwondo and hapkido. But the moves I picked from hapkido are those that are as close to Tang Soo Do as possible. Most of it is identity politics that is rooted in tribalism.

I know that Pangai Noon is extinct but in a way lives on in Uechi-ryu karate. Also many Kung Fu styles met their demise traditionally whenever there was a fall of a dynasty. This is to an extent applies to jujitsu which there are so many styles through out and some did not make the historic cut. This brings us to Karate, I have heard some styles of karate did not make it. Not because it was suppressed or anything but rather the training may have been daunting, boring or overall it lacked the student body. The inspiration of this thread is you guessed it, Himokiri karate, now in the series, its considered a "tragic style" because its too dangerous for sparring due to finger and toe attacks. Anyways not to go off topic but my question is, has there been a style of karate that became extinct?

Absolutely! Right now my main focus is on Korean Karate but of course the school is affiliated with WT because its more popular and has a global structure. But at the end of the day, we are all martial artist who seek mastery in our skills. In this forum, I made post about getting a black belt but my style of karate is more of a Korean flavor. Of course I found a fantastic Taekwondo school that deep down teaches moves from grappling and Tang Soo Do. But for sake of running a business its good to align yourself with an organization that also holds competition so the students can set goals and work towards a purpose within a ruleset of a particular combat sport. When I do my private lesson, I don't wear a belt, its irrelevant at the end of the day because my effort that gives birth to my technique is what matters in the end. This is one of the days I LOVE about judo, getting belts means scoring points. My Judo comes from a sambo teacher and again, when we are in middle of practice, the gi falls apart. I am either a grappler or striker at the end of the day.

Your not wrong, but let me offer a comparison. When I did Thai kickboxing, we were told to "hit as hard as you can" and now that I am training Taekwondo/Korean Karate, I am told by my instructor that I should "snap it real quick, dont worry about power" My best way to compare is, power kick does more damage but has a longer reload time. Speed base kick is more rapid and has a less reload time if that makes sense. Although one thing to mention is, lots of Korean martial artist tend to start with speed, proper mechanics, attention to detail and flexibility. Afterwards, they start adding more and more power to it. This is something I noticed from Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo. Very interesting to see Uechi-Ryu being mentioned once again. The reason I find it extremely fascinating is, I have noticed that in the custom wikipidea Himokiri Karate that Himokiri Karate maybe a homage based on Uechi-ryu. Fun fact about Himokiri karate is, even in the fictional setting, they were characters in the show who referred to Himokiri karate as " a gimmicky style that dishonors tradition" From what you are saying about Uechi-Ryu and comparing it to Himokiri, it sounds like both are extremely brutal styles of karate. One thing is, I noticed that finger and toe strengthening is also mentioned in the shaolin text as a method in which a body part can be turned in to a weapon. Of course Uechi-ryu is based on Pangai noon kung fu and so it makes sense that they relate to one another.

Alright, this thread is based on my username and its also based on classical karate and the principle is based on, wait for it, my signature! So I make this thread because I have been practicing Taekwondo and the emphasis is on speed and NOT on power. This actually brings me to the recent UFC leg breaks from hard kicking. Now I have been working on snapping kicks quick with no power but using snaps, accuracy and stabbing with the toe. I noticed its way healthier for the body and I can hit and not hurt my legs because they are flexed and properly bent. This brings me to the barehanded techniques of Karate, we have hiraken, ippon ken and of course the ultimate small target area...Nukite! Tell me something, as karatekas, how many of you practice these moves? Do students object because of possible hand deforming or do you guys use medicine similar to iron palms or do you guys recommend any recovery tactics?

Well, kata should not be boring ... and as far as it being 'impractical', that just means you are not learning proper application , in that 1. In modern kata the moves have been changed, so any bunkai based on 'wrong' moves is 'wrong bukai' . 2. Application in movement and practice ( eg tai sabaki ) is essential , while in kata movement is often, static, patterned , or 'focused' (meaning its a type of 'index' ... a 'central position' that changes in application depending on how you apply that technique . I have seen people try to work out a striking bunkai from a move that is actually (originally ) a take down, or throw . Of course it won't work or be 'impractical' ... for them . replacing kata with judo ? ; 1. well, that just makes the above even worse and removes the knowledge even more . 2. may as well, as modern karate has got so bad ( with things like the above ) ... may as well give up the whole lot and take up judo - another thing to consider ; in traditional karate, with the throws and take downs you should be learning how to fall and roll anyway . 1. What do you mean? Karate knowledge is getting better and better these days. We have combat karate that gives us a platform to see the best karate technique. Karate knowledge is radically improving and evolving. More and more people are realizing that karate offers unique techniques and entrees to throws and clinch fighting and their is new found interest in exploring karate techniques more so than ever before. 2. Modern Karate ROCKS!!!! I have no idea where your sentiment is stemming from. Modern Karate right now is truly breath taking and awe inspiring. We are seeing mixture of Kyokushin with Okinawan Karate. We are seeing a resurgence of Tang Soo Do and various forms of Korean Karate like Tang Soo Do/Taekwondo hybrid systems that revolve around low stance, forward explosive steps as well as jumping around, snapping and bouncing! Karate without judo is incomplete. Even founder of Kyokushin karate came to this realization and started training with Masahiko Kimura who is a judo legend. Learning to break fall is very important and in Kyokushin, its very important to know how to sweep and throw and judo of all the Japanese martial arts has done the best job in isolating and organizing classical jujitsu techniques to create a grappling flow based on efficiently. I agree with you about break falling. Its very important and one of the most under appreciated aspect of martial arts regardless of what style. I train in Korean martial arts and in Hapkido, we really prioritize break falling as an essential skill as oppose to knowing 20 different throws.

I agree, I think its best to take 2 judo throws and just focus on developing it in to an instant functional weapon and this requires 10 thousand hour effort and endless repetition. As a student of the Martial Arts for many years, and instructor myself, I really hate to see this kind of advise given out. A student can get good at multiple styles, especially ones that don't have a lot of crossover. If a student has the time to devote to a couple of disciplines, and is willing to do it, then they should do it. Well, I think this depends. What kind of fighting are we talking about? Are we talking about competition? Then yeah, being in peak physical condition, along with being really talented, is important for successful competition. If we are talking about self-defense, cardio is still important, but not nearly as much so for surviving a self-defense situation, as it's not likely to last as long as a competition bout is. When it comes to self-defense, I'd rather have lots of time in skill and drill. I see your point, real fight is different because adrenalin gives you that boost to survive a fight since life and death encounter is different than a sport fighting contest. But I also see the importance that cardio is like you mentioned, very important because it can allow you to hit and escape and if your would be attackers chase you and corner you, they might be gassed from running and you can get the jump on them with more explosive techniques. I break down the totality of fighting in three aspects: 1. Physical: how fast, strong, explosive, quick, agile and coordinated you are along side endurance and stamina. 2. Skills: Whatever martial arts technique you have from karate to sambo to boxing techniques. 3. Killer instinct: Not hesitating and willing to fight back without hinderance of thoughts and what ifs. Pulling the trigger for lack of better words. This pertains to mind set. It doesn't matter if its a karate punch or a boxing combo. In the end, the person can perform the move with confidence knowing that whatever fear and hesitation is not going to interfere with that persons willingness to act swiftly.

Depending on different teachers, it may mean different things. Black gi may mean that the person is of a rank of an instructor. Red gi I have heard represents fighters, people who fight and they tend to be more on the aggressive and flexible side. I do not know how true it is though. It could mean different things to different schools.

Its a martial arts meet that I go to. I come from a more Taekwondo/Tang Soo Do hybrid. I call it Korean Karate and there are other stylist in the meet. Some are more in to hybrid styles like mixing kickboxing with kenpo. Just to give you a context, I mentioned here that sometime ago I got in to sambo. Now my situation is somewhat unconventional. My main style is boxing and Korean Karate which is incorporated in to sambo since sambo is judo heavy. This is my current path in my martial arts and this path placed with folks who are very nice people by all means but they do challenge the notion of Kata. Now I personally believe in putting the whole million reps in to get good at something regardless if its Kata or not, whatever gets you there is fine by me. But we also do have traditional Karatekas and the kickboxers tend to be a bit opinionated about the katas. My personal belief is, katas done right is very important because...it prevents injuries because you are developing body mechanics needed to perform the moves correctly and also to enjoy longevity in the martial arts journey. On the other hand, I do understand that incorporating judo is extremely important and its not that they want to replace solo training but rather when the class or meet is in session, they want to stick to break falling and forward/backward rolls which is a fair point and there are judo training that is also solo to be fair. Recapping my situation: Now for those of you familiar with my situation, I wanted to teach karate originally, then few months ago, I was in a hostile situation that made me question as to what is the best method of training for outside so my purpose somewhat changed over time. Afterwards, I met a private teacher in Taekwondo ( since I had experience Tang Soo Do and boxing) and after some time, our session went from poomsae/kata/forms to replacing it extreme cardio because as he put it " cardio wins fights" and I of course am wanting to get in to fight shape. So with that in mind, I needed to orient my training towards combat and I also reconnected with my sambo coach as well since Canada is just beginning to ease up on the restrictions. Regarding martial arts meet: In my town, MMA is extremely expensive but also, its not really MMA in true form but rather in my town, MMA=Thai kickboxing and Brazilian jujitsu. Not to mention it is super expensive as well. So a martial arts meet is where martial artist of all styles come and exchange techniques and look, not every person is going to be agreeable and some folks can be difficult. My current state: I am somewhat conflicted with everything as of recent times. In a way I don't really have any particular belief or specific opinion aside from my Karate being revolved around physical attribute development, technique and mental stability to keep calm and to have a killer instinct and be put together under high stress situations like I found myself in. I BADLY want to make sure that my students get the best training and if they learn boxing,karate/grappling from me, that they also to know how to deal with all kinds of assailants who are untrained but highly aggressive to even malicious human beings who may know how to kick box or wrestle. Sensei8/Bob once said something here that stuck with me forever. He said that if he is drowning, he doesn't care what the name of the life raft is. As far as I am concerned, if anything no matter how incremental gain it is, it is worth considering. This could be practicing kata, practicing stance training, meditation, chanting mantra or doing some fruit fasting. I just want results in a form of mind, body and technique. In the end, everyone's opinion is welcomed and sometimes I agree, disagree or become conflicted with their feedback. I came here to say this too. Imagine a Muay Thai gym saying they'd replace heavy bag work with taekwondo. There are some hybrid styles that mix Taekwondo and Muay Thai together. Sometimes the heavy bag work is replaced with takewondo target mitts and sometimes its not depending on the hybrid teacher and how much of their hybrid focus on one or the other style. Weirdly enough, its becoming a popular thing. Now there is a shift from karate, kung fu, taekwondo, boxing and kickboxing to...striking. Some places do say they teach a mix of two striking styles.

There was a bit of a talk in my community. The talk was, replacing kata with judo. The reason is, most folks have only so much time during the day to train in martial arts. If they train in judo, they are doing an MMA based style that also happens to be complimentary to their karate. In a nutshell, the pro for kata is the fact that its safe and no one gets injured. The con is that it is boring and impractical for combat situations. The pro for judo is that it is very effective and pleasing to look at. The con is, its scary and learning to break fall takes a long time to learn. The learning curve is too along specially with Karate being in the mix. Long ago, Bruce Tegner wrote a book called "Jukado" which combined judo and karate. It never became a thing though but I like the idea.

I was going to mention North Korea but ITF taekwondo is very similar to Karate. The way they kick and punch is almost identical to Tang Soo Do which is Korean Karate.

Make her do 60 push ups on her knuckles! Lets see if anyone gets the reference... Anyways as far as "Jane" goes, she is a kid who is not in to Taekwondo. This is one of those difficult moments were you have to take of your teaching hat and put on your baby sitting hat. I mean no disrespect by calling it baby sitting. But truth is, we come to martial arts to teach the best techniques we know so we produce the greatest martial artist. For us, our student is a reflection of what we want to represent and put out there in the world. Meanwhile, for their parents, we are looked at some pseudo-day care workers. Make no mistake, this SHOULD be unacceptable view but sadly this is how business floats. I just had this talk with my Taekwondo/Karate teacher and this is the least favorite part of his job. This is also a reflection of modern generation and sadly, we are in the "I want it NOW" era. I can tell that you care about your student and their progress and you will not lax things for just one student. I recommend speaking with the parent and let them decide if Jane should stay at your Dojo/Dojang or if a different activity best suits her needs.

I am for sure wanting to call it something generic. Truth is, I have trained in many forms of martial arts. From obscure and ancient to modern and trendy. Both from martial arts perspective as well as exercise and philosophy. Yet when its all said and done, when I sparring time comes. No matter what, my techniques are almost all a mix of Boxing and Karate. Funny thing is, I have trained and studied as well as been culturally immersed in Kung Fu and even having a mentor in judo/sambo. But at the very end of the day, for me, it all comes down to employing karate and boxing. Even in pure boxing sparring, I may use few Karate footwork pattern or throw a counter similar to the reverse punch. This is true and I agree with you. This is ideal but, the MMA gyms in my town are very much about enforcing their Muay Thai/Brazilian Jujitsu style. I asked if it would be alright for me to mix my Karate, they said "sure no problem, its MMA after all" but in actual class, its all pure Muay Thai, no ifs or buts. You come to a Muay Thai class its Muay Thai, no mixing. This was off-putting not because its all muay thai but because I asked before hand that if it is alright for me to mix my Karate. I wanted to make sure what the boundaries are and if they said " sorry but we keep a tight shift" I would have been alright. That being said, they are good and know what they are doing. I just wish told me this earlier. I like to think it was a misunderstanding between the manager and instructors. But perhaps you are correct, I can take everything I learned and do few MMA matches as well as boxing. Let see what happens, I live in Canada and we are still in lockdown.

It looks cool and in fiction, a halberd has a scythe blade which makes it formidable. Curios to know if this is something a person practicing martial arts likes to learn?

This is true but due to the rise of Muay Thai and other MMA styles. I want to show case a combative side of karate. The fact is, Karate offers so much to other martial arts and the only way to show case its prowess is to fight. That and I was at several places that gave out belt if you just kept paying money and I got to green belt and I realized I was terrible. With Korean Karate (TSDK/TKD) as well as Kyokushin. I trained many years without going for any belt testing because I wanted to be the best white belt ever. Now I want to teach and a bit conflicted that I did not do ranking since I thought I would never ever want to be a black belt. So now, I want to have a black belt because I want to be a teacher of Karate. No delusion of feeling invincible or confident. However, going back to "what it means to be a black belt" to me, the value comes from knowing how to fight. Its that simple.

So a bit of an update with my situation. So I have been training in karate and boxing for years now. However my focus was on boxing but I have always trained in the techniques of karate but never got ranked. Few months ago, I found a teacher in Taekwondo since my preference for Karate technique is a mix of Tang Soo Do and Kyokushin which both have Korean origins in culture and technique. Its been few months that I have been training privately with my teacher and sessions have gotten extremely intense. I then inquired about belt ranking and I informed him that my true wish is to be a teacher in Karate. Long story short, we came to this conclusion, forget about belt ranking, pretend they do not even exist. Continue to train like a mad man in regards to supreme cardio and endless repetition of techniques. Afterwards, go out, fight and win against black belts in a Kyokushin tournament or other full contact karate tournament. From there, I was told to make a video of the moves I know and plan to teach. But most importantly. I was told to own up to this truth. That this is the route that I got a black belt. This also must be how my students get new belts. They compete in belt divisions and win their belts. This was the conclusion we arrived at our conversation in regards to an alternate way of achieving a black belt that is respectable. Have you heard of this method? The only example I can think of is Mr. Miyagi who awarded ( also stole) a black belt Daniel.

Are you talking about Karate giving you a career path and lifestyle or is this in respect to channeling rage and anger to karate? [quote name="sensei8"]I'd be on a long walk on a very short pier without Karate/MA. It's been my life literally ever since I was 7 years old; without the MA I'm not complete in my totality. It's all I've ever done. What do you mean? I have never heard this expression ever in my life and yet it sounds interesting but I wish to know what it means. My intent is to not imply what this idiomatic expression might imply. What this expression addresses is this... "Go away and leave me alone. What you are doing or saying is really irritating." My use of this idiomatic phrase isn't as drastic or the like. What I'm simply saying is that Karate/MA has helped me to become grounded in my life. Without the compass that the MA provides me, I'd have taking a long walk on a short pier which more than likely would've just lead me in circles. Perhaps I might've meant this more appropriately... "You know what they call a leader with no followers? Just a guy taking a walk." Either way, my life would've been far differently; as Robert Frost penned once... "Two roads diverged in a wood, and I— I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference." I googled the term and it got many different answers. Thank you for clarifying. I agree with you and of course many martial artist must feel the same. I notice one thing about karate when compared to boxing. Karate gives a person life. Not just the ability to defend but also it allows the instructor to make a living and to create a community. Boxing is beautiful in terms of technique but historically, it had the heir of exclusivity and it attracted negative elements. Its gotten better in some gyms but it can be a breeding ground for toxic behavior due to the goal being about fame and glory. Sadly, lots of ex fighters end up in a rough place. Karate on the other hand does offer stability and lifestyle that is more holistic. Going back to what you mentioned, I understand, an art form is not just self defense but also having a purpose in various aspects of life. A light in the darkness that guides an individual in a better place.

Are you talking about Karate giving you a career path and lifestyle or is this in respect to channeling rage and anger to karate? [quote name="sensei8"]I'd be on a long walk on a very short pier without Karate/MA. It's been my life literally ever since I was 7 years old; without the MA I'm not complete in my totality. It's all I've ever done. What do you mean? I have never heard this expression ever in my life and yet it sounds interesting but I wish to know what it means.

I have trained in various forms of martial arts and combat sports. However, I find Karate (including Korean versions) to be the most inclusive and truly fair of all martial arts. To give you an example, I have trained in different styles and you have a culture that is arbitrary like how the top dogs act in a way that is rooted in favoritism. But with Karate, the moment I and everyone else bows and steps on the mat is the moment that we are all the same type of human being with the same values and we all show the same level of respect and mannerism regardless of our belt color. There is no such as "these are our real members" because every person who bows and steps on the training floor is a real member. Every person works towards the same level of technical standard. In boxing, sometimes I see members going there, hitting the bag and then leave. To me, I want to make sure every member is receiving instruction and every one is being examined to make sure they know what they are doing in respect to learning proper foundation.

What's the general profile of your typical class attendant? I've found out karate has made a niche with the following groups: - Holdovers from the past, people who began training in the 80s or 90s, maybe early 2000s, these are the most serious students and the ones who truly care about the martial art aspect of karate - kids: their parents take them to karate so they have some sort of after-school activity. - more recent studies who see martial arts as a workout mainly, they tend to dislike sparring and they are not really interested in the nuances of technique. Also: - Cobra Kai series making Karate cool again More seriously, what I noticed when I made this thread that I forgot to mention is, with all the damage and health problems from excessive sparing. The MMA community is beginning to see the importance of safer training and now some decent places are trying to change the training towards safer sparring. It might take longer to get good because you have to go slow and steady. But you end up making better progress long term because the focus is on superb technique which is more everlasting than cardio and aggression. Also its worthy to mention that many top level MMA fighters tend to incorporate traditional martial arts techniques to keep their style unpredictable.

I agree now whole heartedly. We are human beings and martial arts is a social activity. But most importantly comes down to productivity. I excel with a teacher who is proactively checking my form. I also like the fact that my current teacher is my junior in age but is very open minded and actually likes some of the Tang Soo Do stuff that I do. The ability to analyze and compare creates a broad perspective. Solo training cannot measure up to a dynamic. Thank god that its super affordable private lessons. I am in Canada and we are still in lockdown mode and our policy is that, private lessons are alright but adult classes are a big no. I am taking advantage of the situation to learn as much as I can in a private setting with a great teacher who has great passion for martial arts. Solid post!! Live training is no good without a partner to explore both the known and the unknown. Funny thing is, I always felt weird about practicing Taekwondo. Like does it mean I have to find a Taekwondo forum or if I have to shed my Tang Soo Do fully. But I read a book that there were 9 Kwans and they all taught different forms of Tang Soo Do. Long story short, they renamed it to Taekwondo for national identity and added more kicks for distinction. I also read a book from one of the early Taekwondo practitioners and Dan Nolan who refer and combine both Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo as Korean Karate. Either way, this feels right in my hear of hearts. Going through an intense training session with two styles of difficulty. One is overcoming the challenge of uncovering a new technique and the subtlety that makes it effective and two, the non stop conditioning drills that requires extreme effort. All is worth it when my instructor is a great human being who is open with Tang Soo Do/Karate techniques being employed. Without a doubt, I changed my mind a 100 percent. Sometimes its just best to wait it out for a great master to keep that sponge pure from impure teachers and also not pick up bad habits or even worse, meet a bad human being as a teacher that can really diminish this incredible journey that is the martial arts.

Its not just brain damage, I mean combat karate is on the rise. We are also seeing lots of celebrities getting in to boxing fights. But regards to karate, it seems like more and more fighters in the MMA are incorporating karate or some form of Taekwondo/Tang Soo Do ( many call it Korean Karate) as a way to empower their striking abilities. Its not like two decades ago with fighters standing stationary and trading leg kicks. We are seeing spins, pivots, bouncing and shifting on top of flashing kicks and creative feints. These moves can be found with in Karate.