RW

I agree partially. You see, karate and TKD for instance, had elbow, knee and ground techniques. They are no longer applied in sparring, relegated only to kata and drills. I have seen some people now learn "MMA" (lol!). I am sure we will also see MMA mcdojos (if they don't exist already). However... MMA is more like boxing. There is a pro-sport based on it. Theoretically, a superb amateur boxing dude in a dirty gym somewhere can get very good, escalate, etc and maybe even go pro. This has forced boxing to stay real. The same can happen to MMA. Even if it became its own style, and gets formulaic, there will always be the pro-MMA people, KO'ing others with shin kicks, superman punches and so on, keeping it all realistic.

We must also remember that the cage and rules set up for MMA were created by the Gracies to showcase and accommodate their style over others. Yeah... it's designed to favor grappling so much, it kind of upsets me...

Yeah.. I was actually considering not making the post at all, but I figure out that if there was any place in the WWW I could post it, it'd be here because people are civilized I agree with you completely on the Gracie thing. Even though that has changed I still feel strikers are in a disadvantage. When I saw the Tales Leites vs Silva fight I was so mad. Dude would just drop to the floor and spread his legs when touched and Silva couldn't do a thing... because of all those rules. Or Nick Diaz, who put one knee on the ground on purpose just so he couldn't be kicked/kneed. What about restricting some of the grappling? hehe

MMA takes the most proven techniques. Not necessarily the -best-, but the ones used by the people who fight, who learned from people who fight. This creates an effect that we planners call "path dependency"; essentially, you're good at something because you started out good in it, and you're bad at something else because you early on chose to be good in the other thing and arranged everything to support A, not B. What we have NOT seen is any conclusive demonstration that A actually IS better than B, simply because all the people who intend to get good do A because that's what their peers are doing. After all, some of the techniques that are well known and loved by MMA stylists are the ones that even TMA people thought were a bit goofy and impractical before someone tried them on one of the proto-MMA guys and took them out. Suddenly, that technique is "practical, duh!" and no longer in the slowly dwindling set of "ridiculous and impractical" techniques that TMA people haven't yet floored an MMA guy in an octagon with. Though it is important to note that it was pretty easy to see who was staying in and who was losing out - the people who trained against resisting opponents who move in a variety of ways and take real hits? Stayed. The guys who do empty vacuous forms by rote or ultra-stylized touch sparring, while thinking that that was in and of itself sufficient to go against fighters who specialize in ring matches? Went away. I agree. Moves like those high leg kicks were supposed to be goofy and impractical, until... people proved otherwise. Suddenly, "practical, duh!" It's almost scary how so many "point spar-rers" thought they could get into MMA...

Finally, our TMA's are not what they used to be in their beginning. Why does karate have elbow, knee and ground techniques in kata, drills and even "hidden" here and there but they are barred from sparring or competition? (This applies to TKD as well). This is just an example. This makes sense. Today's TMA's are adapted to a civilized world. If they were as brutal as in their beginning, most of us wouldn't be practicing them. MMA was intended to be a brutal sport. If it was pitted against the original version of TMA's, it'd not hold a candle. But not to the evolved, civilized TMA's of today. There is a reason I am here in a TMA board and not a MMA one... I love TMA's, but yes, MMA is in fact better for self defense.

III) MMA techniques ARE TMA techniques MMA takes what works from TMA. Boxing punches. Karate/Muay Thai Round kicks to the face/body/legs. Elbows. Knees. Jiu Jitsu ground work. What it does not take is the stuff you don't want to use in a fight. Horse stance? Spear hand? Tornado kick? They're all awesome, and they all got a purpose. But maybe their purpose is not to be used in a fight. IV) MMA is the result of pitting MA's against each other. UFC began as a brutal bloodsport-wannabe tournament. Boxers, sumo guys, karate, TKD, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, wrestling, representatives of all of these arts and even some less practiced such as savate took part. Eventually what worked stayed and what didn't got weeded out (sumo guys, for example). The bar got raised and now they can't limit themselves to a single art. People do Muay Thai (mostly) and karate for striking, and BJJ (mostly) or Wrestling for the ground game... and MMA was born.

Wow... let me chime in: I practice shotokan karate. I have never ever done MMA, nor have I done brazilian jiu jitsu, nor will I ever do. Where am I getting with this? I am unbiased (you all are as well, but just saying...) I see some people consider that MMA is a sport (true), and that it was not designed for self defense (true). However (I know this will get me mobbed! ) I truly believe that MMA is much better for self defense than most martial arts out there. Yes, this is coming for someone who has ONLY done a TMA and who will never do MMA. Allow me to elaborate: I) MMA is a sport. MMA is a sport, just like boxing. A sport from which people make a living. You see boxers and MMA whose only goal in life is to train for the next fight. They don't have to worry about going to their job tomorrow, this is their job. They are not afraid of getting a black eye and showing like that anywhere. They're not concerned or busy with things normal people are. Even a TMA sensei. If he is giving a class, he is not fighting or preparing for a grueling fight. He has to give classes. Do tests for the students. Guide the students. Go to tournaments and/or prepare students for that.etc. It is not fair to compare someone who makes a living out of something to someone who does that even as a job but still has other things to do. II) MMA fighters can practice their techniques. Again, just like boxing. The boxer knows how to uppercut. He uppercuts daily. He also knows how to dodge a punch, how to knock out people and especially how to take a punch. Some boxers get brain damage from the beating they receive in a usual basis. The MMA guy, he has landed a foot kick to someone else's face in the past. He has landed a punch, he has knocked out people. He has also taken to the mat someone willing to knee him in the face in order to prevent it. The MMA guy has given an armbar and has sumbitted people. Most important, the MMA guy has also been punched, kicked, arm bar-ed and submitted. Just how many times have most TMA's given a full power kick, punch, etc to another trained human being for a consistent period of time? (months, years). III) Tried and true techniques Jabs. Uppercuts. Leg kicks to the face. Leg kicks to the leg. Armbars. etc. They have all been tried and we know they work. The stance, it is easy and practical. How often do we see a knife hand strike to the face in action? A spear hand? What about a "whirlwind kick"? => This is awesome, beautiful, skilled, nice.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8M0s6endDU&feature=related => This may not be, but it is more effective and realistic. (look at 0:24)

Thanks so much for pointing me to the cung lee videos... he is one amazing fighter and also uses the side kick

In MMA, kickboxing, etc, I do not see fighters use two of my favorite kicks as often, the side kick (yoko geri) and the front kick (mae geri). They seem to be simple and fast, but all I see is shin side kicks (like a mawashi geri, but with the shin). Is there a reason this kicks wouldn't be effective in a full contact fight?

While sparring, this girl kicked me in the nuts (no cup). It was just a light tap, but it still hurt. I remembered "keep moving, jump around" and... yes, it helped a lot. Nobody else noticed she got me there, and I sucessfully made it look like I didn't even feel it. Next time I spar with her, the next week she does it... again. I do not know if she was just that sloppy or it was on purpose, I mean, two times in a row! This time I made a funny experiment "don't bounce around, see if you feel it more this time". I you're curious, not bouncing around did made a difference, but I still acted it out. I didn't spar with her until... 1 month later we spar. No nut kicks ( ). Then the teacher comes close and he begins pressuring her like "keep kicking! fast! don't give him space! kick kick kick!" (he was an annoying little dude who didn't like me, I left karate because of him!). She got pressured and... hit me again (just a light tap once again, nothing too bad). Instinctively I kick back in annoyance and... she blocks the kick, SLIPS AND FALLS ON HER BUTT. I didn't even kick her that hard. The teacher goes like " " and weasels to the other side of the class.

Of course they are good for self defense... most of them, anyway. But not because of their "pure" aspect, but because they will make you fit, improve your reaction times, make you hit harder, move faster, etc. You will see the ocassional chance to use some moves from your MA in a fight (maybe a round kick to the thigh, maybe a side kick to keep the opponent at bay, maybe certain punches), but you will mostly be doing whatever you can do: kicks to the groin, boxing-like punches, kicks to the shin, etc, very non-MA moves. I practiced shotokan for like 18 years and I also had a couple fights in real life when I was a teen. I ocasionally did (karate) side kicks. But I threw "regular" punches, slammed the other dude's head in the wall, etc. No "knife hand block". No backfist strike (ura ken), no furi tsuki (that weird punch in which you spin the knuckles and your palm ends facing away from your body). No high kicks... see my point? I believe MAs are still around because they're fantastic disciplines, great for staying fit, they are fun, they can sometimes impart discipline, and they help a little bit for self defense. MANY people, want to defend themselves better, but without basically paying for getting the **** out of them on a weekly basis and be striked in the face or whatever like they would in a boxing class or the like.

I believe no martial art "purely" helps you to win a fight, in a strict meaning. Show me someone who attempts a zen kutsu dachi (forward foot) or horse stance in a fight and I will show you... someone really dumb. Who would pull his hand to the waist when punching? Who tries a sword hand block in a real fight? This renders striking styles like karate and taekwondo useless for a fight. Now, regarding grappling styles such as judo and jiu jitsu, those are in my opinion even less useful. You don't drop to the floor in real life in an Tales Leites kind of way and wait for the opponent to attack you. In real life, your opponent will stomp on you, jump over you, try to soccer kick you in the face, etc. You don't pull those locks and grapples because... the opponent can always headbutt you, bite you, try to pull your ear, fishhook you or reach out for your groin. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has proven very effective in the UFC. Now let's recall most grapple-intensive fights. If I was in a drinking game where everytime the "losing" side in the grapple could quickly win the fight by using a headbutt, reaching for the other dude's crotch (or kneeing it or whatever) or trying some other plausible but forbidden maneuver... I'd need to get a new liver. ****** Having said that, I do believe that striking styles give you something very important: Reflexes! Your reaction time will be faster. Your body will be faster and/or stronger as well. Grappling styles will probably make you stronger as well and might teach you some useful things you can pull if the exact right conditions happen. Muay thai, on the other hand... it does seem to be helpful. Boxing punches (easy to pull off in a fight!) and more basic, less risky kicks. Still, it is not 100% applicable, just like karate/tkd etc. Just my 2 cents

Did you see what pacquiao did to hatton? De la Hoya lasted MUCH more and he wasn't knocked out... DLH was not really that old as even he thought he was

On a side note, isn't kickboxing dying too? People want to do muay thai. Or "MMA" (which isn't really an art by itself, but gyms advertise that). Kickboxing itself is not a formalized MA (at least to my knowledge). It used to be basically karate-kick based, but someone, for some reason, decided to change that to muay thai kick-based. Go and try to find a karate-kickboxing school as opposed to a muay thai-kickboxing one...

Karate is a victim of the implementation of its teachings. I am a karate guy, by the way. It is a really complete martial art, but the sparring system really limited it. If katas use knees and elbows, and karate people train countless knee and elbow strikes, why are they prohibited in sparring? Suddenly muay thai capitalizes on that, they call themselves the art of the 8 limbs, etc etc. Since its conception (or at least its westernization), it has been decidedly non-contact. Isn't shotokai about non sparring until you have a very high belt? How many systems use point based sparring? This actually helped karate become popular, the # 1 martial art, and also to become the blanket term for any martial art for a long time. Back in the 80's, where karate was seem as mystical. People would see in karate kid this skinny kid practice some KATAS, wax on, wax off and BOOM, he can beat up bullies. But now things have changed, and MMA and a growing desire to "get down and dirty" raised interest in boxing, muay thai and BJJ. But think about it, not everyone wants to get the *** kicked out of them. Some people do not want to be hit in the face, or full force with no padding. They just want a work out, learn to defend themselves better, but without getting hurt. That is karate's niche right now.

is this like morote uke?

No, I would not lose respect for my sensei nor quit for that particular reason. People are human and humans aren't perfect. I've noticed something in martial arts. You might find one or two students who truly believe that their instructor is infallible, --- perfect --- above and beyond making mistakes. They idolize and worship them blindly --- and so in a case like this, that student seeing their instructor fail, most likely would find some specific excuse why their "hero" didn't win. I say, "big deal" - they lost - fair and square. You win some and you lose some. It just means that wasn't your time to win or someone was better strategized than you. It really annoys me when a student will look at their instructor with "rose-colored glasses" and make some excuse when this happens. They lost, big deal, get over it. Next time they'll do better. But I would not be ashamed of them. In some cases, it actually humbles people. Great post.

I know, it is. The only point is that especially in boxing it is highly likely that you have seen your instructor put on the gloves and duke it out, for which you already have a better idea of what he can't or can't do ...

I excluded boxing and muay thai because in those ones you've probably seen your instructor duke it out and know how good or bad he is...

Let's suppose you practice karate/taekwondo/kung fu/krav Maga/Jiu Jitsu/Judo, etc (NOT boxing or muay thai). You happen to be in the same bar as your sensei (or instructor or whatever), but he hasn't seen you. Some dude gets into a fight with him. An obviously huge, menancing guy, but certainly not a mike tyson or Randy Couture. The dude beats the **** out of your sensei. You sensei tried to fight back and lost fair and square. Would you lose respect for your sensei? Would you quit the class?

Let me rephrase myself. I you were a 7'0 man proficient in Karate, Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai and Krav Magna, you should still not think about taking on 3 goons on the street just like that.

Kez... you are a small woman. What are 3 guys hitting on a woman doing? They're thugs. You should not question your skills for not being able to take out 3 thugs. Hey, maybe not even an MMA fighter would have done that much better than you, considering that what you described was basically a sealthy, cheap shot. Your MA training will make you the best fighter you can be. The best Kez you can be. There is no reason to leave that. Be the best you can be. Don't risk yourself next time, though, I mean, martial arts or not, a woman fighting as man is never a good idea. And even if it was, just to make an analogy, you won't take a bullet just because you got a bulletproof vest that can protect you, right? Feel good knowing that your skill is a thousand times better than it'd be without the training, and it will keep improving to unsuspected levels.

When punching, my stance is almost frontal, like boxing. My guard is very much like boxing as well. With this stance, I am not very good at kicking, except for the very basic front kick, in a muay thai teep kind of way. Maybe a low but powerful mawashi geri kick, that's it. When kicking... my whole stance changes. I stand sideways, my arms are up covering my face... a lot like taekwondo (funny, I do karate!). I can do mawashi geris, side kicks (my bread&butter kick) some front kicking, ushiro geri, hook kicks... but I am not very good at punching. Front jab, that's it. How can I overcome this? Does this happen to any of you? I blame the fact that in sparring you do all these funky strikes (haito, uraken, etc) which you do not use outside sparring.

Don't just wait for opportunities to happen. Create them. Move around, see if he moves around because of it. Oh! He lowered his hand while moving towards you.. BANG! No opening? Make it look like you were going to throw a low kick without actually doing it (be careful not to create an opening for him!) did he react? Did he open himself because of that? BANG! Hit there. Everytime he kicks you and misses or you block... his leg has got to come back. Perfect time to attack back. See what I'm getting to? If this is full contact sparring, just hit as **** hard as you can and the impact itself will create an opening or unfocus them.

He still kicked you without you expecting it, from a blind side. He WAITED for you not to see it coming. He knew he was going to kick you from the time he gave you that smile. It doesn't matter if he could wipe the floor with you, he's just being a bully "because he is stronger". How would he feel if you paid some pro boxer (mayweather? Pacquiao?) to beat him up? (not that'd they do it or anyone could pay it, this is just a hypothetical). Hey, they beat him up because they can right?