RW

We live in different times right now. When karate was "created" (think, Gichin Funakoshi times, even though I know there's much more history to karate before that), people couldn't just go fight other people on TV like you see in UFC # 1 or UFC # 2. What's more, Kyokushin couldn't have direct face punches because it was not allowed by some japanese law (citation needed here). Karate changed from a "jutsu" to a "do", in order to survive. People trained Kata and point-sparring. Sparring had to do without knees, elbows and joint locks (funny how Muay Thai bills itself as "the art of the 8 limbs", when karate clearly had those techniques as well but shunned them in sparring). Even the K-1 competition began as a combat sport without face punches. Under this "pasteurized" approach, karate managed to survive and even thrive in an era where a more raw martial art like today's Muay Thai or today's MMA would be unthinkable in western countries. If you examine katas and drills, karate has chokes, elbow strikes (empi!!!), knee strikes, arm locks, and even some crazy things like well, pulling the nuts in some drills. All of that dissapeared and "sport karate" took its place, with point sparring where people can actually jump towards you, HEAD FIRST, and attempt to tag your helmet (they called it "blitzing") Then karate became too popular, and mommies everywhere sent their kids to karate. Mom is spending good money on keeping Jonny in karate, and let's face it, if Johnny came back from karate class with a black eye, mommy would enroll Johnny in piano lessons instead, so we better keep Johnny. The result? Lots of point sparring or crippled full-contact sparring (in many cases, kyokushin sparring is 2 grown men exchanging chest punches) and kata, kata and more kata. apparently, if you can memorize a string of movements, you can beat up a person. This still worked, and karate thrived and gained an element of mysticism. Movies and mcdojo teachers popularized the "karate chop" and board breaking. --- Then times changed, and society was more open to full contact martial arts and things like being hit in the face, getting hit by elbows, knees, etc. Suddenly you can see two grown men beating each other up, "no holds barred" fights (an older term for MMA) was born. With the advent of MMA, things changed. The "tapout culture" began, and their disdain for traditional martial arts.

I never got some sort of certificate for any of my Kyu ranks, and I practiced for YEARS and got the 1st Kyu rank Maybe I was in a Mcdojo?

WOW, Kyu certificates? Is this standard practice in arts like karate or TKD too?

Background: I practiced Karate for years and got a brown belt. I quit before sitting for the black belt exam because I was sick of the sensei's politics. Then I switched to kickboxing and I've been practicing it ever since. --- A friend of me recently told me that he got his TKD blackbelt certificate from the Kukkiwon (spelling?). I was puzzled about it, and apparently... people get certificates when they get black belts? Really? I had never heard about it, and now I'm intrigued. Apparently that happens in other Martial arts too? Is this true? I find it hard to believe that every 7 yr old at a blackbelt mill has a certificate or something... maybe it is limited to legit schools? How does this work?

I was in the airport, some dude's bag was falling, you know those bags that have a telescoping metal handle. It was falling towards me, so I used my foot in a side-kick (yoko geri) like motion and caughte the bag for his. His kids were really impressed

Traditional Martial Arts techniques can be harder to pull off, so many MMA practitioners say "they're not effective/don't do them". But then someone comes and shows that they can be done... first it was the front kick to the face (A. Silva), everybody thought that a high kick, especially a front one was too easy to catch... but he pulled it off. Then Machida somehow pulled a crane kick vs Randy Couture. Now we see spinning backfists. Good times

enjoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SL7jUFaEBk

As far as I know, kickboxing started in the 70's and 80's as a combination between karate kicks and boxing punches. Something like this: Then it kind of lost popularity and Muay Thai took its place. The Muay Thai they teach at many schools is simply kickboxing + elbows and knees and using the shins

Thanks for your replies... truly informative

Allow me to explain my question... I read the lineage topic and it got me thinking. I practiced shotokan for like, 14 years. I can tell karate when I see it. But the more I read about karate, the more I read about other karate styles, the more unclear it is what karate is. So, let's suppose some dude gets a blackbelt from a legit karate school and decides to open his own dojo. Is that karate? He is not endorsed by the JKA or whatever. What if the guy got a blackbelt from a mcdojo? He will teach exactly what he learnt at the mcdojo (but let's suppose the mcdojo belongs to a legit karate organization). Is it karate? See it this way: Once upon a time the definition of karate was so flexible that things that could have been considered spin-offs back then, such as kyokushin, were considered true karate styles, just as we consider them today. What if tomorrow one of the heads of the JKA, who practiced karate with Gichin funakoshi for decades leaves and founds "lolz ryu" (ridiculous name on purpose), and lolz ryu karate is way atypical. Lolz ryu resembles more kung fu than karate. Why would that be or not be karate? I have seen some weird schools that teach "karate". Not shotokan, not goju ryu, not kyokushin, etc. They call their art "karate' or "karate do". They do katas I have never seen before. "Yosno kata 1", "yosno kata 2" and "yosno kata 3", for example. They're all the same (imagine heian nidan using neko ashi dachi stances instead of zenkutsu dachi, and sometimes adding a kick in between in the case of yosno 3). Is this still karate? Some could even argue that ITF TKD is karate... Then, some guys have these karate schools where they get low-level belts to be "instructors" and give them zebra-belts (black & white)... is this karate? The line of what is karate and what is not is too blurry...

UFC is all about BJJ and Muay Thai. And also wrestling. When a style outside those three makes it into the headlines, it's a good night for that particular sport. GSP is a Kyokushin blackbelt, and it was even shown in on-screen text. And then the Machida thing. While this won't make people rush to karate schools, at least it helps the credibility of the art a bit, which has suffered in the ladt 10 years.

First Machida Ko's legend Randy Couture with a CRANE KICK (Karate kid style!) and then Kyokushin blackbelt GSP defends his title for the 7th time or so... Side question: I know the front kick is a mae geri. How do you can the crane kick? Mae Tobi Geri?

I may come of as a bit disgruntled, but it's more like I'm waiting for someone to validate that I'm wrong here... Why would the technique for say, the morote chudan uchi uke matter? (if by more uke you mean this: )I mean, I don't think people would ever block like that in a real fight... you're better off pulling a chudan soto uke and leaving the other hand to cover your face or ready for a counterpunch or some other attack... I'm just doubting why some martial arts techniques exist, I guess. Like the morote uke, or the kokuto uko. The way he teaches it, it's a uraken strike to the inside of the elbow, with the other arm giving it a lot more acceleration for more power. Hence, more a strike than a block. After striking with the uraken, that hand can now become a kizami tsuki and the supporting hand can follow up with a shuto uchi uchi. Kyokushin is all about fighting, but we also include other techniques than what you typically see in knockdown. Not sure what kokuto uko is, do you mean the wrist block (some call it kakuto uke, others call it koken uke)? Though I'm not very good with them myself, I have seen quite a few karateka use them brilliantly. Because of their nature, nukite can follow up immediately after one as can other hand techniques. Yup! That's what I mwan, kakuto uke... I had the wrong spelling

I may come of as a bit disgruntled, but it's more like I'm waiting for someone to validate that I'm wrong here... Why would the technique for say, the morote chudan uchi uke matter? (if by more uke you mean this: )I mean, I don't think people would ever block like that in a real fight... you're better off pulling a chudan soto uke and leaving the other hand to cover your face or ready for a counterpunch or some other attack... I'm just doubting why some martial arts techniques exist, I guess. Like the morote uke, or the kokuto uko.

Which of the 2 koreas owns created TKD? Or maybe one "owns" WTF and the other one "owns" ITF? The ITF forms were created under South Korea, but when there began to be some competition between Choi and some others, Choi left and went to North Korea, because they offered to sponsor his TKD there through the government. So, he jumped ship, and in South Korea, the WTF came about with the goal of becoming an Olympic sport. Choi was trying to reach this goal, as well. Interesting... thanks!

Which of the 2 koreas owns created TKD? Or maybe one "owns" WTF and the other one "owns" ITF?

Black belt and skilled blk belt? Im pretty sure u have to b skilled to earn a blk belt? I ve studied MA for over 20 yrs so i prettymuch know all about self control. there were three of them against me. Acorrding to this states law allows me the right to kill during the commission of a class x felony-Mob Action. I felt bad because i have a good heart. It wasnt my kids hands i had to subdue. My point is maybe i could of used less force but when i get attacked i react. Try useing self control when there is a fight envolving 20 people and three of them are running at u. At that time your conditioned responses take over. Are you sure about that? I've never heard of such a law... So say, if you have taken boxing or muay thai in a year for years, you're fine, but if a mcdojo gave you a blackbelt in 6 months after learning a couple katas/forms and/or seeing a couple videos from 'senseis", then you're a weapon? What's this law's name? It needs to be repealed.

What makes a good sensei, though? Is a good sensei the one who can hold himself in a fight? Or the one who has a lot of MA knowledge (i.e. he knows the katas, movement names, he can teach you sparring, and maybe he can count in japanese or chinese or whatever language his MA comes from). Is a good sensei the one who comes from a lineage of senseis from an organization? Imagine two extreme cases. Mr. berp derp who is the grandson of Itaka Derp, one of the founders of style X of some martial art. Berp Derp knows all the katas/forms. He has trained since he was 5. He won several tournament trophies on kata/forms and point sparring. He is great at transmitting knowledge. Oh, and he is an average fighter, at best. In the other extreme, you got Mr. Yadda Yadda. He does have a (legit) blackbelt in the same martial art. He is a bit unorthodox, he doesn't teach a lot of content, but oh my, people would feel sorry for anyone who starts a fight with him. He is also great at transmitting knowledge, in his own way. You'll end a great fighter, but maybe you won't learn the bunkai or kata Y or some forms at all. Which sensei is better? What about the middle ground between them?

Do you think that most martial arts (for example, karate, taekwondo, kung fu and kempo) were actually designed as self defense systems? Looking back at my shotokan days, I can't help but wonder things like the following: - Why would you ever pull your hand all the way to your ear only to do a shuto uke (knife hand block). -Why would anyone do a block by taking his/her hand all the way to his/her ear in order to start an ude uke (forearm block)? -Has anyone actually tried a rising block (yodan age uke) with their hand starting on their torso and rising the arm all the way to the face? These seem unfeasible because they just take too long. While a strike to your face only needs to travel from the other guy's guard to your face, your hand/arm needs to travel BACK to your ear or torso, then go FORWARD again and start the block, effectively doubling the distance. No matter how fast someone is, this greatly reduces chances of blocking the hit... Or what about strikes? -Why do we chamber punches? Why do we pull the opposite hand to the waist? Has anyone actually chosen to do knife hand (shuto uchi) or spear hand (nukite) strike in lieu of an old fashioned jab/straight punch? I know the answers to this questions... in the case of the blocks, the answer is "in a real fight we don't really block like that". In the case of the chamber punch, it's the same, "we don't do that in kumite". In the cause of the unusual specvialty punches like the open hand strikes, the answer is "the apply to a limited and very specific range of circumstances" (like "what if you need to strike the opponent's inner thigh or underam?) This is all fine but... then why do we have so many blocks and strikes like that all over shotokan/taekwondo and other things like that in other arts? And don't get me started about the stances... Thing is, I've come to the conclusion that maybe many, many martial arts were not designed as self defense systems, but rather as arts... the movements are supposed to be perfect, beautiful, with good form, strong. The martial artist will get fit and in shape from it. Self-defense benefits will come too, but maybe it's not the primary focus... Just a though

Wii sports is not like the real sports... nor is that kinetic ping pong game like real ping pong. But they're fun I'd not mind doing some kinetic katas or having a kinetic boxing match...

I agree with murray. Many of the takedowns we see today in the UFC wouldn't fly if kicking/kneeing a downed opponent was allowed. And forget about stomping on someone in the floor! How many submission artists and wrestlers would go for that? Not as many. How many would rely solely on those skills? (think: fighters like jake shields and chael sonnen who blanket, manhug and lay and pray their way to victory) Even less. I'm not saying karate would reign supreme (Muay thai is probably a better art, and this is coming from a shotokan guy!), but it'd be one of the most dominant ones.

Not to be the devil's advocate here but, as long as he has correct form on his stances and moves (something which I don't believe he can achieve from watching a video or reading a book), does it matter if he knows the meaning of moves? Yes, according to bunkai, that chudan soto uke is actually some sort of choke hold that breaks necks (just an example). But even the blackbelts training under a 7th degree blackbelt sensei, who keep bunkai in mind when doing it are not truly "doing" it, they're imagining it. That doesn't mean they could do that choke/neck break. That downward motion that the karateka does with his palm looking up in the tensho kata might mean something else, BUT, he is not truly doing it. Also, school B says that chudan move here is a choke, school A may say it is actually a different hold and school C says it's actually a block. That Tensho move I mentioned could have different meanings/bunkais in different schools. And for a Mcdojo, the moves are just moves. The bottom line is that practicing a kata keeping the bunkai in mind is not quite the same as rehearsing a given move (probably 100's of times) with a semi-resisting opponent, so in the end of the day doing a kata from a video is not *that* bad (I still don't think the topic creator would learn adequate technique from it). Just my 2 cents

I agree and it's beautiful and all but... karate is a martial art. Karate has (in my opinion) lost prominence as a martial art (remember when people used to call all martial arts "karate", just like all videogames were "nintendos"?), and Muay Thai has taken a lead as "the" striking martial art. Some of the newer generations (especially the ones that follow mma) disregard karate a bit and say that its self-defense usefulness is limited and that "karate is more like a dance" (I have real heard that!) Creative/music kata only makes it worse.

Thanks!

Osu phoenixzion. I'm very much in agreement with what you wrote regarding Kata. For the longest time, I looked down on Kata (not having studied karate) and always saw sparring as something much more beneficial. Having recently picked up Kyokushin, I have to say that Kata is the essence of Karate. It's not only fantastic for learning techniques but also for hardening the spirit and I find myself practicing the few I know for hours on my resting days from training. This, for me, is unusual, as I'm training 5 days a week To the OP. I haven't done full contact sparring yet- but did lots of semi contact in my Muay Thai days. I will though (as is inevitable with Kyokushin) and I look forward to it because I seek to push my body to it's limits and go beyond- One of the reasons I love Kyokushin So you went from Muay Thai to Kyokushin? Whick kind of kicking do you prefer? (MT shin kicks vs Kyokushin chambered, instep kicks). Which one do you feel is more applicable for combat? Not too sure who your Kyokushin Sensei is but the "in-step" is only used on the head. In Kyokushin, Ashihara and Enshin karate, the shin is the preferred striking point of the legs. I only teach kicks using the shin for round kicks. It also states this in Human Weapon and in Fight Quest which specified Kyokushin Karate. The good thing about Karate. Based kicks are that ALL kicks start the same way with the knee chambered first so for example from the chambered knee to the front, front kick, side kick or round kick could be applied. OSU!!! That reminds me of an interview with Joe Lewis. He loved using side kicks, because "once your knee is up, you can pull a side kick, hook kick, roudhouse kick, and the opponent literally has this much space (he uses hsi hands to show the space between his knee and his foot) to react".