RW

On the Korean side there's ATF taekwondo, as well as Tang Soo Do, Soo Bahk Do, Kyuki Do, Chuck Norris' hybrid style Chun Kuk Do, the Muay Thai/TKD hybrid Kun Gek Do/Gwon-gyokdo, Choi Kwang-Do, Kuk Sool Won, etc. etc. It's just that few of them are as visible as TKD due to its promotion by the South Korean government. On the BJJ side there's the split between what's now considered to be 'mainstream' BJJ, which is virtually all ground fighting, all the time, and a curriculum that hews somewhat more closely to what the Gracies themselves teach, which adds some very basic standup strikes and focuses a bit more on throws. There are also the 10th Planet people, who have also taken some pains to distinguish themselves from ordinary BJJ, and there's a rather quieter split between those schools that practice mostly with the gi and those that practice mostly without. Only when you're on the outside looking in do either appear monolithic. While I don't know as much about Muay Thai, I imagine the same is true there as well. Good point. And I agree. Just one thing, aren't all of those korean MA's different martial arts, as opposed to "taekwondo styles"? (i.e. Karate and judo are japanese marital arts, while Kyokushin and shotokan are both karate. However, tang soo do, the chuck norris style, etc are different MA's, like karate and judo)

On a side note, I wonder how Muay Thai displaced karate as the choice martial art for striking? There was full contact karate at first. These guys had awesome punching and of course, karate kicks. That FCK became "kickboxing" (still karate based). At some point karate just stopped being relevant for kickboxing and Muay Thai displaced it. But, when and why? I don't think that the lack of elbow and knee strikes made the difference (after all, karate DOES have them in kata, drills, etc, they could have just incorporated them into the kickboxing repertoire. Also, shin vs. instep kicking isn't a good enough reason, after all in the UFC fighters use the shin and instep indistinctively in the spur of the moment, judging the distance isn't as precise.

Of course!

I got to admit that I have never trained Kyokushin, I have only seen it in videos. It looks to me like oponents rely too much on punches to the torso? I read that hand attacks to the face are not allowed, and it doesn't look like they like to back off and then kick, shotokan style, it seems more like they stay close to each other and exchange body blows. If what I just said is right (especially the lack of head attacks with the hands), I don't think it is necessarily that much better than shotokan... shotokan taught me to cover my face and kick a lot, which I did find valuable in a couple schoolyard fights... just my 2 cents

What you all say is totally right. I guess he meant something more of the lines of "why does Karate have so many different styles as compared to other MA's?" Think about it. There's WTF and ITF taekwondo. There's Muay Thai (I am not aware of different MT styles). BJJ has several schools, but they're still BJJ, as opposed to say, shotokan and goku ryu karate. I have wondered that myself...

Cool. Interesting. Would you use ridge hands in a real fight? Have you ever hurt yourself hitting say, a punching bag full power with the ridge hand? Actually, are we talking about the same ridge hand? (Haito) : I'm so intrigued now

Funny, it was the same way for me in Shotokan. It also annoyed me a little bit. I'd never use a ridgehand in a real fight. So yeah my punching needs some work. I noticed that after I switched to kickboxing.

If I were in a fight (a REAL fight) I'd probably try things such as a soccer kick to the knee (or maybe a side kick to the knee, karate style) or hitting the ear with my open hand (to cause loss of balance). We could say, I'd try "weird", unusual, "out of the box" things that I'd think that the other guy would not expect, and that could probably end the fight with that one blow.

I agree, and I it's a lie that those people who train for a while, could actually defend themselves after they quit training totally. This is not something that you just learn and practice once, we must keep training, keep practicing. Solid post! Random question: If one has been training/learning for quite some time, i.e. 20 or 30 or 40 plus years, and they 'quit training totally' for one reason or another: wouldn't muscle memory activate when attacked? Kind of like getting back onto the horse, in that, once you've done it before, all one has to do is get back onto the horse and everything starts to fall into place. I did karate for a LONG time, then quit for a while, then began kickboxing (American style, not Muay Thai based). The muscle memory is definitely still there. Your body is not the same, though. You tell your leg to move and it may or may not do it as fast as before, and your legs will get tired after a short while. Getting back in the game is much quicker than if you had never done karate in the first place...

You're referring to classic thailand muay thai as opposed to more modern muay thai. Classic thai has since learned from western boxing and incorporated the proper footwork. Footwork is not a strong staple of shotokan or any type of karate due mostly to their deep stances and one strike one kill philosophy. Again this is simple boxing mechanics incorporated as muay thai was exposed to the western world. Someone like Wanderlei Silva, for example, almost never throws leg kicks. A lower stance allows for a stronger punch. This is simple boxing mechanics which has become add on for ANY modern muay thai school since its inception. Again, Lyoto isnt out there practicing katas, hes throwing combinations and hitting thai pads- things non-existent in karate. No, GSP is a mixed martial artist, skilled in boxing, wrestling, and jiu jitsu. Bas Rutten is a Muay Thai fighter turned Pancrase practitioner. Just because they started in karate when they were younger does not make them karate fighters. What karate doesnt teach that is evident in these (and other) MMA fighters: -combinations (karate is one strike one kill, with no hand combinations at its inception) -hooks -kicking with the shin (exception kyokushin) -steping out to kick through an opponent I started with Shotokan, did some Tang Soo Doo, and a little Tae Kwon Do before finally switching to Muay Thai. None of the previously mentioned influence my style of fighting whatsoever. If St Pierre, Machida, and Rutten still practice their katas, reverse punches with hands by their hips, and low deep stances, then I'll gladly say they've combined their karate with muay thai If they work combinations, hit the thai pads, and work in with clinches, knees, elbows, and the like while not doing the above- they have replaced their karate with muay thai So you do know that MT is not like the classic one huh? And that it combines boxing elements now (and may I say, boxing punches). So Muay Thai is allowed to evolve and change according to times and exposure to other styles, but karate is not? Dude... And once again, yes, the UFC karate guys do cross train. You will NEVER see a pure karate guy in the UFC. Nor will you see a pure fighter from any other style, including Muay Thai or BJJ.

I believe karate in general has been dilluted. Early karate practitioners sparred full time (if the word sparring actually applies to what they did). They punched a makiwara. And they would use throws, knees and elbows (there is a reazon karate's got hiza geri and empi uchi on kata and drills... and even that empi kata). In order to popularize the martial art, I suppose, full contact sparring fell out of favor. So did hand attacks to the face (even in Kyokushin!). Kick are allowed only on the upper body in most styles and no elbows/knee strikes on sparring. Is this really representative of how karate used to be? Still, I don't see it as a negative thing. How many people want to show up to work/school with a black eye? Those who want to learn some self defense but don't want/can't have that go do karate (or taekwondo or other MA's) and not boxing or Muay Thai.

I've seen many women accidentally hit in the breast and I've been hit in the breast many times myself (once by a punch, but many times by speeding tennis balls) and I've never seen a woman drop to the ground in pain like men do. I've seen men vomit from a realitively light hit to the groin. I can't see how getting hit in the breast even comes close. You're right, even thought it doen't feel nice, it doen't hurt as much as men. No one drops from that! Exactly. Women couldn't even function in society if breasts were as sensitive. Imagine guys if your testicles were much bigger and in your chest. And then you had to do stuff such as wearing a seatbelt in your car or even worse, a theme park rollercoaster. It'd be a world of pain.

I always assumed we're supposed to hit with the first two knuckles ("seiken" in japanese), the way I was taught in karate. Now in kickboxing I've been told to hit with the last 3 knuckles instead? (i.e. the pinky finger knuckle, the next one and the middle finger one) Which one is the correct way?

Red Gi like Ken from Street Fighter. Just kidding

I tried and it worked! Awesome

This is an interesting topic. If you're going to "exclude" some areas, then, how can you spar with a female? The idea of kicking or punching the face of a girl even when sparring is a no-no for me, and many guys, even though when in theory you can. Body shots are ok, but there's always the chance you can accidentally hit them in the chest, with the consequence that the topic creator mentioned. At least in my style, low shots (i.e. thighs, calves, groin, sweeps, etc) are not allowed in sparring. So where does that leave a guy sparring with a girl with? Running around and trying to land the perfect, no-risk-of-accident stomach shot? It's funny, in my style, face punches are not allowed, nor do guys use a cup and nor do girls use a chest protector (groin shots are not allowed though), and there was this one girl that would anyway always go for the groin when sparring ("accidentally")... it annoyed me off a lot.

How'd you guys describe that art?

Ok, some of these are not combinations but... 1) "Keep your distance" side kick. Backing off, and your opponent is closing it? Throw a quick mid-body side kick. You will sucessfully keep your opponent at bay and... 2) "Keep your distance" side kick" followed by a circular strike to the side of the head. The kick should distract the opponent so you can try to attck the opponent's head with whatever hand you have closer to him. 3) Mid body roundhouse kick followed by turning punch

Wouldn't it pretty much become a BJJ/wrestling match though?

They are quite similar... They both have the front kick, side kick (both thrust and snap), round kick (also both, front and snap), roundhouse, etc etc. Even the strikes and blocks are similar. Who could deny the similarity of this: and this? : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Csg3qL7rYuQ

We must also remember that the cage and rules set up for MMA were created by the Gracies to showcase and accommodate their style over others. Yeah... it's designed to favor grappling so much, it kind of upsets me... Why do you believe that? I strongly disagree. Refs who either do not understand grappling or are just nervous about fans growing bored will 'stand 'em up' in the middle of a guard pass or submission setup. This happens routinely. You will never see a fight stopped when both fighters are standing and dancing around each other refusing to engage, with the fight restarted in an under-over clinch. Judges who do not understand grappling hand victories to "lay n pray" fighters, because they are either directed to do so or cannot tell the difference between a fighter posturing up in his opponent's guard and landing hard punches and the same fighter with his posture broken and being controlled by the bottom fighter. Merely being on top does not mean you are in a dominant position. This type of judging does not favour grapplers. The techniques that are banned are designed to favour the sport being able to be sanctioned, not to favour grapplers. You could not put on an event in the US with soccer kicks, stomps and headbutts. The original Gracie rules permitted all these things and more. The Gracies ceased involvement with the UFC when the rules became more restrictive. Where did they go? Japan, with longer rounds, legal stomps and soccer kicks. The cage is used to prevent fighters being thrown out of the arena. In a matchup between a striker and a grappler, who do you think would be more susceptible to being thrown? At first they were designed for that (by the Gracies). Now it just turns out that they're still favored, even though it is no longer on purpose. Look at that Nick Diaz guy. In a recent fight he was getting pounded so badly by the opponent's kicks and knees to the head. So what does the guy do? lay one knee on the ground. Now "he is grounded" and he cannot be kicked or kneed in the head. So cheeky. Look at Tales Leites vs Silva. He'd get TOUCHED and he'd drop to the floor and spread his legs. He did this the whole fight. Silva was so frustrated. So many people wished Silva could stomp the guy right between his openly spread legs for making one of the most boring title matches in MMA history. If you're a puny striker you can pretty much turtle your way to the end of the fight (back on the ground, spread legs, hand to the sides of your face). Yes, the ref will stand you up. Then you can dance around, and drop again. All those 5 minute hug-fests could end quickly if kneeing to the groin or a headbutt to the face were allowed. Look at the prohibitions... no kicking while the opponent is "grounded" (there is a difference between lying in the floor and putting one knee in the ground on purpose, but the rules do not care!), no kneeing while the opponent is "grounded". No disqualification for turtling your way to victory. No kicking in the kidneys. No strikes to the groin. See a pattern? The limitations on grappling, as far as I know are "no small joint manipulation". Ok, so maybe you are right, UFC is no longer designed to favor grapplers. Now it just turns out that it strongly does, but not on purpose. Read my post on page 4- most of the rules are in tact against grappling. The Gracies stopped fighting after you saw a Ken Shamrock use the rules (time limit) to "tie" Royce Gracie in a superfight. They prefer to fight with no rules, no time limit, anything goes. I did see it... there's some limitations for Grapplers as well, but I still feel strikers get the worse part, just so the sport can be on TV. I really don't think Gracie would love a ruleset in which he can be headbutt (especially with the back of the head!) or hit in the groin when he is pulling his ground game. The headbutt/stomp/groin shot would be possible most of the time when people are in the ground... especially the headbutt. Then why did the Gracies make those techniques legal in the original UFC ruleset? Why did they fight for several decades in Brazil before the UFC under Vale Tudo rules in which those techniques were also legal? Because he had to. He is an amazing businessman as well as an amazing martial artist, and he knew that if he could prove that he could beat any man, anytime, using any style (hence the lack of rules) he could attract lots of attention towards gracie jiu jitsu. He was not exactly looking forward to getting a nutshot or headbutt when grappling hehe.

We must also remember that the cage and rules set up for MMA were created by the Gracies to showcase and accommodate their style over others. Yeah... it's designed to favor grappling so much, it kind of upsets me... Why do you believe that? I strongly disagree. Refs who either do not understand grappling or are just nervous about fans growing bored will 'stand 'em up' in the middle of a guard pass or submission setup. This happens routinely. You will never see a fight stopped when both fighters are standing and dancing around each other refusing to engage, with the fight restarted in an under-over clinch. Judges who do not understand grappling hand victories to "lay n pray" fighters, because they are either directed to do so or cannot tell the difference between a fighter posturing up in his opponent's guard and landing hard punches and the same fighter with his posture broken and being controlled by the bottom fighter. Merely being on top does not mean you are in a dominant position. This type of judging does not favour grapplers. The techniques that are banned are designed to favour the sport being able to be sanctioned, not to favour grapplers. You could not put on an event in the US with soccer kicks, stomps and headbutts. The original Gracie rules permitted all these things and more. The Gracies ceased involvement with the UFC when the rules became more restrictive. Where did they go? Japan, with longer rounds, legal stomps and soccer kicks. The cage is used to prevent fighters being thrown out of the arena. In a matchup between a striker and a grappler, who do you think would be more susceptible to being thrown? At first they were designed for that (by the Gracies). Now it just turns out that they're still favored, even though it is no longer on purpose. Look at that Nick Diaz guy. In a recent fight he was getting pounded so badly by the opponent's kicks and knees to the head. So what does the guy do? lay one knee on the ground. Now "he is grounded" and he cannot be kicked or kneed in the head. So cheeky. Look at Tales Leites vs Silva. He'd get TOUCHED and he'd drop to the floor and spread his legs. He did this the whole fight. Silva was so frustrated. So many people wished Silva could stomp the guy right between his openly spread legs for making one of the most boring title matches in MMA history. If you're a puny striker you can pretty much turtle your way to the end of the fight (back on the ground, spread legs, hand to the sides of your face). Yes, the ref will stand you up. Then you can dance around, and drop again. All those 5 minute hug-fests could end quickly if kneeing to the groin or a headbutt to the face were allowed. Look at the prohibitions... no kicking while the opponent is "grounded" (there is a difference between lying in the floor and putting one knee in the ground on purpose, but the rules do not care!), no kneeing while the opponent is "grounded". No disqualification for turtling your way to victory. No kicking in the kidneys. No strikes to the groin. See a pattern? The limitations on grappling, as far as I know are "no small joint manipulation". Ok, so maybe you are right, UFC is no longer designed to favor grapplers. Now it just turns out that it strongly does, but not on purpose. Read my post on page 4- most of the rules are in tact against grappling. The Gracies stopped fighting after you saw a Ken Shamrock use the rules (time limit) to "tie" Royce Gracie in a superfight. They prefer to fight with no rules, no time limit, anything goes. I did see it... there's some limitations for Grapplers as well, but I still feel strikers get the worse part, just so the sport can be on TV. I really don't think Gracie would love a ruleset in which he can be headbutt (especially with the back of the head!) or hit in the groin when he is pulling his ground game. The headbutt/stomp/groin shot would be possible most of the time when people are in the ground... especially the headbutt.

BJJ does not get so much media buzz. Nor do MMA fighters outside japan use it that much... What are their main differences?

We must also remember that the cage and rules set up for MMA were created by the Gracies to showcase and accommodate their style over others. Yeah... it's designed to favor grappling so much, it kind of upsets me... Why do you believe that? I strongly disagree. Refs who either do not understand grappling or are just nervous about fans growing bored will 'stand 'em up' in the middle of a guard pass or submission setup. This happens routinely. You will never see a fight stopped when both fighters are standing and dancing around each other refusing to engage, with the fight restarted in an under-over clinch. Judges who do not understand grappling hand victories to "lay n pray" fighters, because they are either directed to do so or cannot tell the difference between a fighter posturing up in his opponent's guard and landing hard punches and the same fighter with his posture broken and being controlled by the bottom fighter. Merely being on top does not mean you are in a dominant position. This type of judging does not favour grapplers. The techniques that are banned are designed to favour the sport being able to be sanctioned, not to favour grapplers. You could not put on an event in the US with soccer kicks, stomps and headbutts. The original Gracie rules permitted all these things and more. The Gracies ceased involvement with the UFC when the rules became more restrictive. Where did they go? Japan, with longer rounds, legal stomps and soccer kicks. The cage is used to prevent fighters being thrown out of the arena. In a matchup between a striker and a grappler, who do you think would be more susceptible to being thrown? At first they were designed for that (by the Gracies). Now it just turns out that they're still favored, even though it is no longer on purpose. Look at that Nick Diaz guy. In a recent fight he was getting pounded so badly by the opponent's kicks and knees to the head. So what does the guy do? lay one knee on the ground. Now "he is grounded" and he cannot be kicked or kneed in the head. So cheeky. Look at Tales Leites vs Silva. He'd get TOUCHED and he'd drop to the floor and spread his legs. He did this the whole fight. Silva was so frustrated. So many people wished Silva could stomp the guy right between his openly spread legs for making one of the most boring title matches in MMA history. If you're a puny striker you can pretty much turtle your way to the end of the fight (back on the ground, spread legs, hand to the sides of your face). Yes, the ref will stand you up. Then you can dance around, and drop again. All those 5 minute hug-fests could end quickly if kneeing to the groin or a headbutt to the face were allowed. Look at the prohibitions... no kicking while the opponent is "grounded" (there is a difference between lying in the floor and putting one knee in the ground on purpose, but the rules do not care!), no kneeing while the opponent is "grounded". No disqualification for turtling your way to victory. No kicking in the kidneys. No strikes to the groin. See a pattern? The limitations on grappling, as far as I know are "no small joint manipulation". Ok, so maybe you are right, UFC is no longer designed to favor grapplers. Now it just turns out that it strongly does, but not on purpose.

I would note.. Boxing once had elbow, knee and ground techniques. They are no longer applied in sparring.. and.. Theoretically, a superb TKD, Karate, Gungfu, Taiji, Aikido, etc. stylist in a dirty garage somewhere can get very good, escalate, etc and maybe even go pro. Boxing since it was actually called boxing is only strikes with the fists... And even as of today, karate/tkd teaches you elbow/knee techniques (empi uchi, etc) as stand alone techniques, drill and kata, but there is not elbow or knee strikes in say, shadow boxing.