joesteph

How can a leg that's in the back/rear in any given stance be on THE WRONG SIDE of the body? I looked over Tony's posting again, Bob, and the next sentence reads: Perhaps Tony sees the lead leg side kick as more efficient with biomechanics?

The postings' texts, when the videos are included, have helped me in my side kick practice this past week while the dojang was closed for a July week off. I've been concentrating on using the back leg as the kicking leg. I wasn't practicing the "official" side snap kick that much at all. I've found that I can most rapidly and comfortably fire off a side kick if I just chamber the kicking leg with the upper leg horizontal and the lower leg hanging no more than 45 degrees. I think that the more I've been practicing, it's getting to be somewhat less than 45 degrees--not horizontal, but not so hanging down diagonal. (Actually, raising/swinging the kicking leg into position, someone might first think I'm going to chamber for a roundhouse.) I feel that my kicking leg's hip has sometimes been directly over, and sometimes just past, the supporting leg's hip. It may not be the most powerful it can be, but it feels natural, is fast to chamber, I can kick hard without losing balance, and I'm enjoying using it rather than skipping the kick unless I have to use it (as in a one-step sparring exercise). If I concentrate on going further than top hip directly over bottom, it turns more into a back kick, and I've played around with it to the point that I like it as a back kick. Whatever I do, though, I don't kick until the supporting foot is already at 180 degrees. I understand that there's more power in having the foot hit 180 at impact, but I have to concentrate on balance and even getting the foot to be at 180. There's zero power if the kick is never used.

While I'm not surprised that you wore a mouth guard, Sokusen, I am surprised about others who wore mouth guards experiencing such damage. No wonder you're looking at greater face protection. You're absolutely right. I understand the desire to win (when I was in high school, I won at chess and received trophies; when I was in my twenties, I competed in handgun target shooting and received awards), but a kick to the teeth (I'm assuming they were kicks, not punches) that knocks teeth out sounds more like a brawl than a match. I'm in my fifties now, and I think of my children someday entering sparring matches. But the last one I watched, which was non-contact, had kids punching one-another in the face--hard. (A warning was given, then the loss of a point if done again. Yeah, right. That'll put an end to it. I wonder who the kids are imitating?) There was mention of a cage face mask in another posting, and I have seen it advertised. I guess it's the best face protection that permits freedom of breathing. Does it interfere with sight? No matter what face mask, wouldn't a mouth guard still be warranted? Teeth clanking together can chip or break, and maybe bite the tongue, even if the face is protected.

A really good, well thought out article, DWx. I especially liked the first paragraph of 4. Semi-Free Sparring.

Sounds great to me. Welcome to Karate Forums, John!

I think the above posts make good points. Since you've studied a variety of martial arts, do you find yourself preferring a striking art (with takedowns) or a grappling art (with joint locks)? I thought of Shotokan and Jujutsu in terms of both being widespread. Sometimes a school even offers more than one martial art, such as that my teacher offers a Korean art, Soo Bahk Do, but she has an arrangement with a JJ sensei (Vee Arnis Jujitsu) for certain nights and Saturdays for his school. What martial arts have you studied, and have you watched any classes or taken part in any classes in neighboring schools? BTW, Welcome to the Forums, Danielsan!

For a test, it looked like you were having fun doing it. Congratulations!

I noticed in the first video, the tutorial on "basic technique," that although he's much more skilled than I am in swinging that kicking leg around (doesn't drop it to the 45 degrees I do), it's what I'd aim for if I can keep practicing and have the kicking leg (upper and lower) up to almost all horizontal. That screwdriver kick is something to examine, isn't it? So you do that one regularly, DWx? I'm surprised at how many variations of the "side kick" there are. I can't practice everything, but it's interesting to try different ways of doing the "same thing" against a heavy bag or WaveMaster, if only for a new experience. This is something my teacher's instructor brought up when she guest-taught one of our classes. She spoke about all kicks, not just the side kick, when practiced against a strong target (kick shield, WaveMaster), that you can knock yourself back--or flat on your back--by your own kick. She didn't mention an opponent, but we got the message.

I'm glad the Tang Soo Do World photos made the side "snap" kick clearer, Tony. It looks like we've been discussing three kicks: snap, piercing, and thrust. And the YouTube videos were more on the mark of what's natural for me. I did like this video, and the three videos together concentrated much more on the lead leg side kick. We've been using the lead leg only for one-step sparring techniques, which means against (w/o striking, of course) a partner; the back leg side kick has been the one practiced against a kick shield. The sparring suggestions can help get the side kick in instead of bypassing it b/c of distance or telegraphing. Yesterday, I began working both the snap and 45 degrees side kicks against the WaveMaster I have at home, both with the back leg. The latter was much smoother for me, and much faster. Putting a "hop" or "skip" (I've even heard it referred to as a "shuffle") into the rear leg to help the front leg along is something I've done now-and-then. It couldn't hurt to do it more regularly with the new side kicks practice. Thanks, Tony. I've bookmarked the still photos and the videos you linked to. They're a good reference.

It's interesting that your posting has had ads for performance anxiety on the same page (at https://www.sportsminded.net and https://www.social-anxiety.com), Still Kicking. Not a complaint; an observation of good business sense. I think we've all been through it, just to different degrees based on the individual's personality. Some of us worry about it more than others; some of us can do better if it's more impersonal than personal. An example of what I mean by the latter would be when I was younger and dating a very talented young lady when it came to the piano. She couldn't play it at all if I were present. I remember being outside her door, not yet ringing the bell, and listening to her play, but when she checked to see if I'd come by yet, I'd get "caught" and that ended her playing. I never criticized her; it's just that she couldn't play with me there. I've practiced forms when home, and even when my teacher, who's a very positive and supportive person, is in the dojang, but not where I am. If I see her watching me, I tend to "think" about what I'm doing, which makes me stiffer than I would normally be. I can even suddenly forget whether it's this move or that move that comes next, as forms sometimes have similar moves that branch out into different following moves, depending on the form. It's like the ladybug who marveled at how the centipede moved all those legs when walking, and asked how it was done. The centipede replied that he didn't even think about it, but when he then tried to walk, he was now thinking of every leg--and so tripped himself up and fell flat on the ground. Maybe it's not just being prepared by practice, but blotting out everything--especially everybody--around you. Then your "performance" is only for "yourself," and so there's less pressure, less of a feeling of being evaluated.

My understanding of what most martial artists call a side snap kick: you might move into this position from another stance, but the kicking action begins with a line through both hips facing towards the target, and the knee extended towards the target, while the kicking foot is kept near the supporting knee or groin, instep rotated skywards, then the kicking knee remains relatively still while the kicking leg pivots around it to extend. I haven't tried to document this kick in my posts on this forum... it's very different indeed and I rarely practice or use it. I'd say you've got it right, Tony. I should have linked to photos in Tang Soo Do World at: http://www.tangsoodoworld.com/reference/reference_techniques_side_kick.htm This is shown "with step," but we do both with and without for the side snap kick. Using this for comparison . . . I'd say that this is what she was describing, but I don't have as skilled a motion, so my lower leg is at 45 degrees rather than so horizontal that it's like a plate could be placed on it. If I've followed you at all . . . then the highlighted horizontal above would be a typo, and you meant vertical . . . Yes! It is a typo. I did mean vertical. Which is why I don't use it while sparring, and it just doesn't feel as natural if I'm not taking a step. The step, as in the photos I linked to, above, and the video you linked to ( ) that show it in motion are a help, but a step takes time and telegraphs, and to do the side snap kick from a non-stepping position still takes time (and telegraphs) as well. I wind up doing front kicks and roundhouses when sparring, but no side kicks as the opponent just moves during that set-up time. Offhand, I can think of only one student who uses it, and from a non-stepping stance, but his speed may be the result of his experience/practice with different martial arts for a number of years. Actually, Tony, she's worked with me and others at getting it done in the approved manner, and as she's a certified instructor, I can understand that it's her responsibility that we do the kick this way. She seems satisfied with how I perform the kick, but suggests to all of us that, whatever she teaches us, we need to practice not only inside but outside the dojang. Much of my practice outside the school is with forms, since time is budgeted when you're a parent. I won't say she isn't right that everyone needs to practice, practice, practice to become proficient, but I do feel that, for this kick, the way that feels natural--and is faster--is right for me, so long as I'm on-target with delivery. What I'm now intending to do during the coming months is to return to practicing both the side snap kick and my 45 degrees one, but I have to do the latter at home. If I spar and use my version, maybe nothing will be said so long as I do the approved one when required.

The defense against the wrist grabs that I'm studying now end when green belt is exited to red belt. They're seen as basic training exercises that can be adapted (with training) to a variety of other situations. As for the likelihood of having your wrist grabbed, I think it's more likely to have it grabbed with your hand in an "up" position than a "down" one. You might have just one hand up, as in a "Hold it" position (different from two hands up for a fence), and your assailant could seize it--meaning you'd better be quick to react, because he's going to kick you anywhere from your knee to your ribcage. I think that there are women in the forum who could attest that a male has grabbed either their wrist while in that "up" position (perhaps their other hand is holding a pocketbook) while they were saying they wanted to be left alone, or their upper arm, both these actions intending to control them. If we focus too intently (literally?) on that it's "defense against the wrist grab while the wrist is in a certain dojang-directed position," we lose the basic training concept. I think that training against a grab against any part of the arm while it may be in different, likelier, positions should be a consideration.

I can't quite imagine what you're doing - so much depends on whether you're leg's hanging down at 45 degrees before or after a rotation of the supporting foot and/or hips, whether it's pointing sideways or forwards . . . The Soo Bahk Do side kick is really a side snap kick ("yup podo cha gi," with "podo" emphasizing "snap"), Tony, so I'm to turn my body so that my supporting leg moves over 90 degrees, the chamber is with the kicking leg in front of me, like a front kick (lower leg vertical) but tucked against me, and when I fire off the kick, the supporting leg's heel is 170-180 degrees to the target. Another forums member described her art's side kick as having the chamber with the lower leg practically horizontal, like being able to place a plate on it, and her reference to it in her art was as a thrust kick. I perform the side snap kick as my teacher expects, with the lower leg horizontal, but it's more natural for me that when I pivot to chamber, my supporting leg has its heel past 90 degrees, my kicking leg has its heel turned as far as the supporting leg's heel, and the lower leg is midway between the horizontal and vertical positions--so I call it 45 degrees. When I fire off the kick this way, the supporting leg has its heel 170-180 degrees turned. I don't expect the art or my teacher's requirements to change for me, but despite the practice I put in with the "official" side (snap) kick, if I'm sparring, it doesn't flow w/o taking that bit of extra time for the hanging lower leg to pop into level postion, telegraphing itself, and it's less likely for me to hit that 170-180 degrees turn of the supporting leg's heel. I just wind up not using it. His supporting foot and hip movement is that I recommend for a side piercing kick: both rotating during the extension of the kicking leg. Actually, Tony, what's natural for me is a lot like he's doing with his kicking leg, but all-too-often during the presentation, his supporting leg's heel doesn't reach 170-180 degrees. Perhaps he was so concerned about teaching the chamber and fire that he didn't realize it. I'd say this is what I prefer. The side snap kick seems "halting," not as flowing, to me. Interesting point. More true in traditional schools, precisely because they do break the technique down into small steps and expect everyone to do them the same way. . . . If your school is internally consistent - even between your instructor and her's - then it suggests higher standards than average. Requiring someone to learn the textbook form is generally a good idea, as different technique can have consequences . . . And, if you learn the technique as suggested, then revert to you're own form afterwards, it will mean a lot more for having come from an informed perspective. Sometimes my teacher's own instructor teaches us, usually when my teacher isn't able to make class that night. You can tell that the apple didn't fall far from the tree.

I don't think of you as "stubborn," Bob, but more "old school." (I shouldn't have said that. Now we'll wind up with a new thread on old school. ) I'm aware of your higher ranking and recent promotion in Shindokan, and that you're very likely to know a great deal of bunkai within the kata of your art. So, maybe tangental to the thread, maybe not, what do you think of an organization adding a kata and expecting dan members and schools affiliated with the organization not only to know the performance of the kata but, as is expected, the bunkai within?

Excellent photo demos, Tony.

Great observation, Brian! Jeet Kune Do did over the decades, although it has a "founding father." Why not Mixed Martial Arts in its own way?

Congratulations, Dobbersky!

I understand referring to Tae Kwon Do as a sport martial art (my apologies to those who are familiar with the non-sport content of TKD [like joint locks] that is often not emphasized), or else it wouldn't (couldn't?) have been accepted by the Olympics, but Tang Soo Do, and my art, Soo Bahk Do, specifically separate themselves from Tae Kwon Do. As martial arts, how are they not karate, since there's been such a heavy Japanese influence on them? Even the Pinan/Heian, or Pyung Ahn to the Soo Bahk Do-ist, series is incorporated in them. I do see that you mentioned country of origin, John, but how are they not another of the many facets of "empty hand" (originally "China hand")?

Hi Dave! Welcome to the Forums!

I'm not going to beat you up, and you're absolutely correct when you say its just a theory. Here's my theory/opinion based on your observation(s)... All 4 of your "phases" are infinite. Huh? Learning, understanding, applying/fighting, and mastery/perfection are REACCURING in the practitioner . . . [E]ach rung must be revisited as things are learnt no matter the rank/experience. I hope I didn't alter the meaning of your response to Ironsifu, Bob, by abridging it. Both of you are like psychoanalysts from the past (such as Freud and Eriksson), who worked at figuring out stages of human development, and whether we have to secure one in order to move on/continue to grow as persons, or that we'll again meet old challenges we've thought we've passed. There's no reason not to compare psychological and martial arts growth and development. If martial arts is a person's "life" or self-identification, then each stage in martial arts development is actually a need to be fulfilled. Technique, then, would not be enough for such a person, as it's as emotional as it is physical to him or her.

It was a number of years ago that I had all four wisdom teeth taken out, Kez, and the dentist used both a local and a general anesthetic. I didn't have it done in the hospital (they weren't as vigilant then regarding an anesthesiologist), but when I woke up, it was done and over with. Now, it's probably much more advanced than when I had it done, so I'll bet your recovery time will be even quicker. And it's two teeth, not four, that you're having out. I think you're being sensible and brave to have it done. The only caveat is to check with the dentist about the Sunday competition. You might be tired, since any surgery, even dental, does tax the body. Good luck.

The only time I've skinned my knuckles--both hands--was from repeatedly doing a "speedbag" (like boxers do) series of punches against BOB ("Body Opponent Buddy"), hitting the face repeatedly. I was hitting a rough surface (nose-to-chin) and not stopping when I should have. My fault. I knew better. How closely were you being watched by your sensei? Perhaps there's something incorrect in the way you're striking the heavy bag, or its surface is rough, like some bags that have a clothlike covering over them. If you need bag gloves, they're inexpensive and can be ordered by your sensei, or you can go online to order an inexpensive pair from Century or AWMA (Asian World of Martial Arts). When I speedbag BOB now, I use inexpensive cloth hand guards I got from Century. No more skinned knuckles. And let your sensei know about your knuckles, so that you don't return to the bag until they're healed. I don't practice Shotokan per se, but whether someone practices a martial art, skis, or lifts weights, whenever you do something physical, aches and pains do occur. It's amazing how the body becomes acclamated to the demands of the activity, and how we learn to train smarter, so that we minimize after-effects. This is a tournament. You need not enter any. The participants are also not wearing protective gear, such as to protect the head or torso. Ask your sensei about sparring in your dojo. It'll be lighter contact with fellow students, certainly not KOs to win a trophy, and don't be surprised if your sensei insists on protective gear, even if it's light-as-a-tap kumite. Remember, too, that you're just starting out; you're a white belt, and higher belts will tone sparring down to a well-controlled level. It's part of their responsibility. Good martial artists avoid conflicts while being able to defend themselves against those whose morals are lacking. Your thinking is sound. BTW, What made you choose Shotokan, Nooob? Did a friend or relative make a recommendation? Does the school have a good reputation in your town? Did you watch a class or two first? Did you participate in a class before signing up?

I'm a classroom teacher, Still Kicking, teaching social studies on the high school level. I've just completed 34 years at my school, and I'll be returning in September. Over the years, I've encountered teacher-colleagues who have had a range of expectations from their students. While it's true that there have been teachers whose grades seemed inflated, the average teacher has made reasonable demands, and the grades reflect a fair standard. There are two teachers who come to mind that I believe thought they were setting high standards by being overly demanding--i.e., perfectionists. They groused about the kids and tried to justify a high marking period failure rate by college-prep students who were squeaking by with low passing grades for the year. The administration understandably declined rehiring them for the following academic year. So I have to ask you, Still Kicking, why you've spend so much time with this teacher, who impresses me as overbearing, and are continuing with him.

Sorry, New Level, but I posted the link for the wrong video by Mallory Senne. The instep link is at: http://www.ehow.com/video_4949097_self-defense-round-house-kicks.html The kick I had inadvertedly linked to uses the insole and the "blade" of the foot, and does look effective, but it's not what you were referring to.

UPDATE: I rechecked the page to see it again, but as of today, June 26, the video is gone.