tallgeese

It's all hypothosis, of course, but I'd say that the reason you don't see more of ground fighting in Tao is simply because Bruse had not yet been exposed to it. Remember, that JKD was and is an evolving art form. New movments were probibly constantly being added to Bruce's thoughts on JKD. By the late 70's no one had really seen any sort of modern, systemized, ground fighting system. It took the marketing genius of the Gracies to make the world really stand up and take notice. I've said it before here, I think that the Gracies the same revolutionizing impact on modern MA's as Bruce did. I think that he just hadn't seen it yet. Would he have incorported it had he been expsed to it? WHo knows, I whould venture a guess that he would have, but it's all supposition. As for JKDers doing grapping, yes, they do. That's pretty much the premis of the founding members out of the Straight Blast camp. And all of the guys I've worked with out of there had their stuff pretty squared away. The "take what is useful" principle keeps JKD eveolving past where Bruce left it (for most pratitioners it seems), so it's only logical that modern ones would reach out to include ground fighting.

Just my opion, but I'm typically a nay sayer on his kind of thing. I think that a vast majority of feats attribuited ti Ki or Chi are actually the appropriate and forceful application of leverege, body weight and fight mechanics. Pressure point stuff may have some application, but again I think that this is due more to the physiology of the human body rather than some sort of energy force created by all living things (sorry for the reference there ). As such, I really don't beleive the wild claims I've heard from some people, ie. levetation.

Thanks for the kind words bushido man. They are appreciated. I see alot of schools that focus on one steps and such. I don't think it's a bad thing, and certainly it establishs a great set of core movements around which to build a response system. I've no ticed you mention your DT training a couple of times. Does your dpt. have an "open roll" time or such to practice your DT? That would make me very jealous, I've wanted something like that for our interested people for years. We only recert once a year and we all know that's really not enough. I'd like to see an entire overhaul of the program, but that's another subject .

That's a really good point, bushido man. Striking on the ground is an entirely different animal than striking up top. It's a skill that really needs practiced as well. So, based on that point, I would say that not only do you need to include grapping in any self-defense training these days, but also get acclimitized to striking on the ground as well.

It really is neat. Yeah, that "ninja turtle on it's back" thing with the red man is difficult to deal with. If you google Tony Blauer or SPEAR system you should find the web page. I'm too computer illierate to actually post a link or anything. They have some great vids on it to check out.

Another post got me thinking (and for the life of me I can't find it now) about the different responses we all have to various situations. It made me wonder what the guiding principles of everyone's art form are out there. Not just the different movments and tactics we apply, but the bigger picture behind all of those. Call it the priciples of your art, or a grand strategy, or whatever, but it boils down to what your system is at it's core. How would you describe what your system is about, in a relitive nutshell, to someone else. I think it would be really interesting to see everyone's take on this, from style to style and probibly from school to school within styles. So in an effrot to hear everyone else's I'll kick us off with the thoughts that I grew up in the arts with: Everything should work out of principle rather than technique. The technique is not a programmed response to a single attack, but a movement option that fulfills over all stratgy of principle. This limits the amount of thought needed for dealing with an assult situation. Our primary principles- 1- Evade. Get out of the way of the attack. Either by parry, block, redirection, or footwork. 2-Stun. You hit him, take his mind from the fight. This can be through any kind of striking or other movement. Not only do you attempt to physically destroy his abilty to hurt you, but you also try to take away his will to fight. 3-Unbalance. Take his center. This could be by simple destablinzing movements, sweeps, or even up to takedowns. This again helps to keep him from launching an effective counter attack to your movements. 4-Control. Of the attacker and the situation. This can be as simple as an armbar from standing positon or holding the guy down with a knee in his throat up to some form of submission. If a wepon was involved it may mean using against the attacker if needed. This is the end game of the fight. These prinicples are kept fluid and can overlap. A movement used for one may, in fact, satisfy two aspects of the principles. And example would be the hook punch used to stun may actually concuss the attacker enough to control him via knockout. Or a joint manipulation used to destabilize may also control him if the joint breaks and leads to enough pain that he is unable to continue. stop hits may indeed serve to both evade and stun. If one engranes these priniples, one spends less time trying to match technique x to attack y and as such reacts to the changing enviornment of the fight better. Ok, there is the basic idea of what I do in a nutshell. Next up on the principles? Any thoughts?

I don't wash mine, but that's really more out of laziness that tradition. We don't wear belts much but for cerimonial stuff, so they really don't get that dirty anymore. Now, the most trauma my belt is likely to suffer is being crammed into my duffel with my post-workout sweaty clothes. Even back when I was wearing it regualrly though, I never recall it getting mankey enough to really need to wash. To each his own on this one, I think.

Man, I just found this suit of armor that Tony Blauer's group is selling for DT training and it is awesome. Like a red-man but more mobile. These guys can move and do high end movement in it, the head gear can take full power knees and elbows, it looks great. Now all i need is 1500.00 bucks to bring one home .

DoktorVet is certainly correct. With the increase of MMA events televised, there are more and more wanna-bes that are trying to take you down during conflicts. The chances of ending up on the ground during a fight have always been high, but the chances are getting even higher. The value of grappling in a self defense context is simply the ability to deal with another enviornment. One that it is entirely likely that you will find yourself in. In this regard, not training on the ground would amount to totally ignoring a range of combat. Would you just decide to not practice punching or kicking? Forget about throwing elbows and knees? Not likely. The same should be said of the ground. Remember as well, there are a ton of guys out there now who aren't ranked martial artist but who have spent time either in an MMA gym or pouring over youtube vids who have a modicum of grappling skill. Not enough to roll with trained BJJers, but enough in all likelyhood to give fits to a fighter untrained in ground tactics that finds himself on his back. As far as initaiating a movment to the ground during a self defense conflict, I generally agree with everyone here. It's better to reamin on your feet and mobile, if for no other reason than to effect an escape. Still, the nature of combat is too fluid to ever discount the need to initate ground fighting. Perhaps you've been knocked senseless by a strike, and the only viable option to continue to fight is to tie up and go to the ground. Or perhaps it is the most effeive way to maintian control of a weapon. Hard to say. But again we come back to the simple fact that it is a furter set of options for you to employ given the need. Additionally, we have to consider that when dealing with an opponant unschooled in grappling, it is an excellent way to overcome them quicly. Remember the first time yo uhit the mat with an expeianced ground fighter? If you didn't come out of a wrestling background I bet it was over pretty quick. This too can work to you're advantage in a conflict. By exploiting an untrained grapplers weakness, you may be able to end the fight quicker. Just my thoughts on it.

It's tough with the "without grappling" stipulation. It's been awhile since I wouldn't transition to a ground game. The obvious answer to me that wasn't warned off is "learn to grapple", it will drastically increse your odds of being able to deal with this situation. That said, i''ll try and tackle this with resorting to a grappling thread. First up, if you're carrying a weapon, cover that punch with a close boxing style parry wth one hand and shift your body to access it with the other. We've practiced in class and you can even buy time to open a folder if you position your body right. Usually, covering the movement with the bulk of your mass. Then deploy it. Is this easy, no. Nor is it impossible. If you have to go it empty hand agaist this very signifigant threat then you have to do as much damage as possible quickly. Preferably while taking his will to fight away as well. The eye gouge is the obvious go to choice here, but it's hard to get to if someone is postured well back, which is usually the case when one is winding up on a punch. This is where the knee to the back works well, it should drop the bad guys center low enough for you to drop in an eye gouge. If the dude has hair, I'd grab it as well and yank him down to me. This will keep him down a bit better and give me counter force for the eye gouge. As for the mechanics on the gouge, I'd go with the thumb in the eye, bury it deep, and try to use a rotational motion with it and the hair grab to rotate his center off of me. On a movement like this, you have to be 100% committed. If you only half-way an eye gouge from such a negitive body position, you will in all likelyhood just further serve to anger him and encourage further beating. And he's in a much superior position than you are. If you go full tilt, you might just hurt and destablilze him enogh to get him off of you. If you stick the eye and don't get the roll right away, I'd hang on and keep grinding it. It may back him off in an effort to get away. If the knee to the back isn't working, and if he's postured well it may not, I'd try attacking the support arm that he's trying the choke with. Not to demoslih it, but just to serve the same purpose as the knee. I'd probibly try and keep my elbow high to attempt to cover that incoming shot. Just some thoughts.

My first instructor, who I continue to consider my instructor to this day, is a guy named Tim Jones. I started at the club he had just opened back when I was sixteen. He would go on to not only teach me martial arts, but also be probibly the single greatest influence in my life. Not only did he teach me his style, but also encouraged me to explore other arts as well. I've since moved away and have my own guys who train with me, I've studied under other instructors in a lot of things, I've even gotten the opportunity to be on the mat with some really top notch fighters but i still look forward to each visit when I get the chance to train with him again. He's continued to evolve in the MA's as I have. Fortunately, we do sometimes deviate in our path, which gives us the chance to really share information when we get together. The lack of stagnation on his part is really the thing that keeps the arts fresh for me and has probibly kept my ADD tendencies in check all these years.

Everyone makes good points. I'd be worried about any place that told me that I couldn't study another art while praticing theirs as much as anything. I'd also worry if they told me to look up some of their basics on youtube, if it was a primary reference. But that's just me. As far as the name and such, I wouldn't worry much. Evryone seems to have made that point. What matters more than name recognition is the ability to walk onto someone elses floor and be on par with their people at your rank. If your school is accomplishing that you're in good shape.

I agree Throwdown, idealy on the street I wouln't want to hit the ground either. However, it happens alot. Even more now with the proliferation of MMA on television. It's an aspect of the game that can't be ignored. In my opinion, the Gracie family revolutionized the ma's when they brought ground fighting to the public arena in exactly the same way Bruce Lee did when he develped JKD. I don't think a serious student of fighting can overlook ground fighting anymore than they can afford to ignore the principles Lee put forth. (Disclaimer- no I don't think everyone should study JKD, but the principles that are at it's core deserve attention by anyone who studies) Yes, there may indeed be times when purposly taking someone to the ground is better than other alternatives. Getting your clocked cleaned up top is one that presents an easy answer. Have to play to your strengths. Don't foreget, he's talking about encorportating MT training as well. That would really serve to round out his game quickly. And yes, CT, a couple of nights per week of MT and your standing game will make good progress. It will be striking progress however, if you're interested in stading joint locking it won't be the best format. I think NIght Owl made a good point, see which is a better fit, which feels better to you and go for it.

I wasn't surpised that Penn beat Sherk, but I was suprised in the way it went down. BJ really out fought him on his feet and used his reach to his advantage. To me, it looked like he really ment that whole "ccommiting fully" stuff. I was also suprised Sherk didn't force a takedown ealier, espically after he kept eating jabs. Bottom line, I thought, both of these guys are great fighters. Penn simply had a better game plan and executed it more fully. Silva, yeah, great KO. THe guy's a great hitter, no doubt. Glad to see he's breaking out of his streak. Jardine continually gets underestimated, and I've counted him out of fights he's won myself. He'll be back, and really with both of htose guys swining for the fences, it could have easily go the other way. Suprisingly, I too was rooting for Tito a bit. But, yes, Lyoto was excellent. Did anyone else feel like Joe Rogan should just have stopped about half way throught the fight and gone "Ladies and gentleman, the UFC 84 word of the night is- evasive."

Someone mentioned Karate Kid a few posts ago so... I really hate these films, not because of the crane stuff (yeah, bad), but because everytime I see one I always identify more with the bad guy. I mean, I'd way rather train with any of the bad guy dojos in the films. Like in part three, both parties are training for a fight. Wound you rather...a) spar constantly and beat on mitts or b) do kata on the beach? I know my answer. That being said they're not the worst MA film out there. Certainly the list of B level MA films that are worthless are too numerous to be counted, but for the better know ones I'm going with anything with Van Damme after Bloodsport (despiite the fact that to this day I won't turn off a rerun of Cyborg).

Cross, I too have from time to time used the motorcycle helmet for training purposes. Nothing says "elbow your partner in the head as hard as you can" like a helmet does It is a great tool, and one overlook often. For self defense simulations at full power I haven't found much that's better. For my part at least, I should thank Paul Vunak for pounding all his training partners like that in an old 80's training video that I saw during my formative years. Probibly scarred me for life.

The ease of getting a permit will depend on what state you live in and how restrictive their laws are. Hopefully, you'll end up where you can do so. As for the shuriken, good for you. I couldn't hit the side of my house with one of those if I tried.

I don't think anyone would argue otherwise. This is a real negitive situation and all you can do is pick from a list of less than ideal options if you have to act.

The 31st is coming right up. Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

Let's see, heavy bag double end bag speed bag a couple of makawari mounted 2 set of fucus mits kick shield caged head gear boxing headgear kempo gloves 2 sets of boxing gloves (one fairtex one junk spare) MMA gloves karate point gloves from way back (haven't seen much use in years) shin gear elbow pads knee pads multiple mouthpeices (one real nice custom job) a few wood training knives a dulled metal training knife several wood hanbos a couple of nice escrima sticks three training padded batons airsoft pistol (on it's last legs, im replacing it w a red gun soon) At any given time there's a value pack of tape in my bag as well since it's pretty much the only thing holding me together these days I too have a suit of vaugely Japaneese and fairly crude SCA armor hanging in my basement that dosen't get nearly the use I'd like it to these days. And of course all the rattan glory that goes with it.

I personally would vote for BJJ and MT. They are definalty contact oriented and allow for a dramitic increases in self defense capacity very quickly. Not baggin on Goju at all. But it really depends on what you want. Despite being defined as sports by many here on the boards, the combination of BJJ and MT will allow you to function very well on your feet as well as the ground, automatically increasing you total fight package. Do they not allow certain movments that are useful, of course. No one is focusing on eye gouging in either practice. Still, you will spend more time at actual fight speed in both of these arts and the emphsis in conditioning will be heavier (usually). THis will translate to greater survivability and durability on the street. The ceratainly lack the more cultural and formal aspects of TMA. If you are wanting to study partially for those reasons GOju may be fore you. Yes, I have been exposed to Goju. One of my insutructors was ranked in it as well but I never persued it exclusively.

Nice to see the scientific side of it. Thanks.

I doubt anyone thought that, Dwx. It's fight training and these things happen, everyone gets scuffed up now and then. It's expected. Like you said, intent is everything. Don't sweat it. we get dinged all the time, we say we're sorry and move on.

Short post for me- They shouldn't be.

Entirely see where you're coming from. It's a good question. My old man boxed in the Navy and according to him it was fairly wide spread. Now that you mention it, I've never actually asked why. I'm not certain that it is still as prevalent today as it has been in the past. Ok, I guess I gotta try to do some reasearch...