tallgeese

I know that it's suprising that I'm the one saying this but I'm still leaning to not needing to jump into this fight. If intervention would have been "best case" scenrio then contact would have been made before the BF starts throwning down on the victim. Then maybe you could verbally de-escallate the situation. Second, again, the victim sure dosen't go out of his way to not get beat down. Not talking about his poor awarness or tactics, but his utter lack of any understanding that maybe he shouldn't irritate this guy. As to another point, yes, I do think it's the victim's responsiblity to walk away (although I agree with bushido man that outside may not be the best idea exactly for the reasons he stated). It's his responsibility because it's his responsibily to make sure he isn't hurt. No one elses. HE should see, even without training, that this is going to go poorly. He needs to take care of him self as best as possible and stepping up in the face of a 300 pounder probibly isn't the best way to exercise this responsibibliy. Step back, call the cops and have the dude arrested for disorderly conduct or assult. You win both ways then. One, you don't let him get by with the stunt he pulled, society is now better off and this kind of thing is not allowed to stand. Two, you don't get beat up in the process. So, yes, it's the vicitm's responsiblilty to look after himself to a degree. Self -serving? Yes, to a degree it is. People get hurt in fights, sometimes people get dead in fights. This is a guy I don't know who didn't even try to get himself out of the situation peacefully. If one absoulutly has to become involved, then I'd start verbally by asking him to back off or try and get the GF to get him to back off. Certainly get the cops coming. If the leave, get plate numbers. Now am I saying let the dude get beat to death? No, I can't even be that callous about this. But really take a hard look at the potental consequences of jumping into a fray for a guy you don't know from Adam.

Yeah, your chance of coming out on top in this type of altercation are pretty slim. Does that mean you shouldn't try? Of course not. Does it mean you shouldn' t practice this possible scenario? No, you should be training it from time to time. In fact, given the likelyhood that an assult may very well involve more than one attacker, some serious attention should be give to this training. Just understand the limitations that the bad guys mass in numbers puts on you. A better mindset for this altercation is survival rather than "winning". When sparring multiple opponants, and yes you should address this in sparring as well as any other form of practice you do, you should include escape as the final step in the fight. We usually designate a door as a goal and the trainee in the middle trys to reach it to effect an escape. Certain tactics will help you out more than others here. Try to keep the attackers from surrounding you, this is easier said than done of course. Keep moving, never become stationary. Try not to end up on the ground, this is the beginning of the end agaist several attackers that want to hurt you. If you end up there, everything is secondary to acheiving escape. Hit hard and move, preferably in sensitive areas. If joint manipulations are utilized, break the joint as best as can and move on. Don't become embroiled in an effort to maintain or persue a joint position that is not working. Even with all of this being said, you're odds aren't great against guys who really want to do you in. Set your mind above all else to destroy anyting that gets in range and set aside all else. This will to survive will be your greatest asset and sometimes what attacers lack the least. Really hurt one of their buddies, make the next guy step over his body to get to you...it may make them think twice. This is ceratinly a situation where moving up your response option chain to higher levels of force is easily justified. Use them if you have to. Consider elevating to a weapon if you have one handy. Even deadly force can be justified here if the attackers are serious enough. Access your knife, gun, or whatever else you may have on your person. If you're carrying these things make sure that above all else you have the will to use them. A close second is making sure that you have adaquate skill with them to deploy them successfully. So, there are my thoughts. And even after all that, I still think you are waging an uphill battle.

Today- good chest/tri work out heavy bag- 4, 2 min rounds. Focused on defensive movement. Workrd on elbow out of clinch, and a couple of more set ups.

Yes the new books are by a different guy and they do have a very different feel to them. Then again, bear in mind that the original novels were written in the late 70's early 80's (I think). The thing is, the movies have very little to do with the books other than a shared title and a great idea for a core charater. That being said, I'm a fan of both the books and the movies. You just have to threat them as two different animals.

Yeah, it would be tough. Kinda mean to. I think the unexpected should happen during the test. We often have one of the board members throw out unexpected and usually very difficult scenarios. Another factor to be considered is that your new bb is probibly beat to tar for a few days afterward and my not be in the best physical condition to jump into the heat of it again so quickly.

I agree, it's a very good thing to see. As someone who works with amature fighters in the area, I have gotten tired of showing up for a fight and have the rule set change at the last minute. I've seen my share of bad refs and judges (some good ones too, however). I think it will go a long way to raising the level of professionalism in the sport a long way.

crossfit- 5 rounds of: max reps bench press-your body weight (175) pull ups 10 set leg work out. 3-3 min rounds on the heavy bag. 1- worked on getting my back hand more active at range. 2-knees/elbows/kicks, focused on really striking with the cutting point of the elbow, not just throwing it in. 3-kicks/knees just to really burn the legs. and my kick combos need work. Thus ends my long weekend of bachelorhood. Wife and kids are back from the grandparents tonight. At least I won't be eating cereal for two meals a day.

Have to second the new Hulk film being pretty good. Just got out to see it yeasterday. Good action, good story. Liv Tyler and Ed Norten have the chemestry to sell the romance. The visuals are great and the new Hulk look is excellent. WAY better than the first one a few years back. For comic fans, Stan Lee makes his cameo. Lou Ferrigno as well. There is a nice moment when we hear the opeinng score from the 80's show and it works really well. That really is a good peice of music. Additionally, he fights the Abomination, and we see hints of the Leader for future films. Way better for comic nerds like myself. I'd rate it as good as the X-men films. Not quite as good as Iron Man. Definalty worth a seeing.

Yeah RAZ, if you can get that info go ahead and post if for us.

Really good take on the topic RAZ.

I certianly think you're right buhsido-man, it's entirely possible. And in fact, as long as people realize what it is that they do, I have no problem with it. There is a great historical side to the ma's, for instance. It's not an aspect that I'm heavily into, even though I certainly appreciate it. I'm therefore glad that someone out there serves to keep it alive. If that person dosen't train then I'm ok with it. Certainly, they could also intellectually understand tactics and strategies. As long as they're not continually running their mouth off about what a great fighter they are, it's fine. And yes, the internet has certainly become a hotbed for that kind of activity. That's part of the reason I appreciate this forum so much. It's well regualted and the participants all seem to be above that sort of thing. A little plug for KF there .

I would certainly take a look if I were nearby. Glad these guys are keeping that stuff alive.

There certainly is a place for them in the context of training in self defense. The problem I see is that too many people get so caught up with trying to apply a joint manipulation that they forget there's a fight going on. Watch someong doing hard attack/defense drills in a sparring type simulation sometime. Often, when the defender trys to apply the lock, if he fails at the inital application he will continue trying....all while the defender has begun punching away at his face. They work best as another tool in the box so to speak. Also, they need to be taught as damaging movements, not mere locks. When a wrist manipulation, for example, is appled at speed, with intent behind it, you should be trying to destroy the joint so it can no longer be used to harm you. After learning the application in a very controlled fashion and competency is acheived here, a more realistic dynamic can be applied like cross indicated. This could involve the joint slipping loose, the attacker countering with stikes or whatever. Anything to train the defenders mind and body to remain fluid during the conflict. As always, I feel that these things are best applied with a stunning motion. A strike of some sort. Be aware that the use of this immediatly raises you up the force option list and may not be viewed by law enforcement as an appropriate response to a wrist grab. Where the greatest strength of training from the wrist grab occurs, in my opinion, is the familiarization with destructive joint motions from a very controled drill. From here, it is very easy for a student to see how and why something works the way it does. After learing the movement in this kind of setting, it is much easier to go and apply it in a more contact oriented training. A note of caution on moving to this type of drill, be careful, it's how I detonated my wrist that to this day still gives me problems when I tweak it wrong, (or hit the heavy bag, or it gets cold out....you get the idea).

Sorry, haven't checked this thread for a bit. Thanks, bushi, but in all fairness they're really not my ideas. As with all else, I've taken it from someone else and called it research . At least these come out of my principle art. Thanks for the kind words. Maybe with a little bump here, someone else will throw somthing in.

I don't know if you guys carry off duty or not out there or not bushio-man, but in addition to general discussions of becoming involved with an altercation you may also want to consider talking with her about what to do if you have to deploy an off-duty weapon. Ususally, unless you're wife is really invovlved with that side of your life, she probibly hasn't even thought twice about it.

You're right, you certainly can't blame the victim, like I said, it's a bit much for continuing to lip off. However, you can certainly say that he should have been a bit brighter. It looks like at a couple of points he could have walked away and been done. But instead, he steps up in the attackers face. There are plenty of good reasons not to back down. I would just question if this was one of them. Not being there to actually hear the altercation, it's really hard to tell and I certainly hate to monday morning quaterback. As for getting involved, there's a bunch of stuff to consider that has already been discussed before siding in something like this. I certainly understand where you're coming from. But just accept that there may indeed be consequences of becoming involved. It may be better to call the police and let them sort it out.

I don't think it's dumbing down, it's teaching age appropriate material. There are movements we use that 8 year olds don't need to work on. They're just not emotionally mature enough to be repping an eye gouge yet. Hence, the junior ranks. From a weapons stand ponit, I can't show kids knife work. Not in good concious. The black belts in my sysem have to demostrate basic firearm knowledge, even if they never plan on persuing it further, can I teach that to a pre-teen? I would also argue that practice of defensive manuvres in kata is a world diffrent that training them at speed with mindset, which is a natural and needed extension of training. I think that this is part of throwdown's point. You just can teach that kind of thing to children. I'm not saying that you should't teach them good movements, I'm just saying that you can hold off on the ugly realities of fighting for a bit with them. It's probibly healither for them in the long run.

I float in between the advice already given. I'd give it a few days of rest, ice and your choice of an anit-inflammatory agent (advil, ect.) Maybe try this for out to a couple of weeks. If it's just not showing any improvement, or it starts getting worse, then get it looked at.

That last drill is a really good idea bushido man. Very clever, and it addresses some issues that we've been kicking around the boards here a bit latley that often get overlooked in classes. Might have to steal that and call it research . As for my workout today: Went over scarf hold on the ground as well as escapes from same, drilled this while in controlled roll- 15 to 20 min. 30 min of free roll followed by a three man round robin for each of us. Finished with sparring from the ground. Spent about 10 min working drills from here, another 15 actually sparring. We then promptly ruined all the work we did by heading out for sandwhiches afterwards. Well, there's always tomorrow.

Yes, we've discussed it before and I occassionally bring it up to reminder her about what to do. Most of my instructions are for the wife to get the kids and leave the area a quickly a possibly if I am unable to take them myself. She's then to call the police as soon as she's in a secure position. She knows that if I tell her to go there's to be no questions and she should just listen and do it (this is about the only time this will ever happen ). Of couse the instructions in such a situation could easily vary based on what is happening and what the tactical evaluation of the scene turns out to be.

Good luck!

Ceratianly proning out is the best control for handcuffing ect. However, I was simply pointing out that a dude on his back is better than one on his feet hitting you. Certainly a high degree of contorl and escape can be exerted from here as well, I just don't think it should be dismissed as an option, that's all.

+1 for bushido's take on the mindset training involved here. I'd rather work my focus during simulatins of combat of one type or another. This way you're more realistically mimicing the conditions in which you'll need to utilize that focus. In this instance a fight. And while not even close to the adrininline response of a fight, hitting mitts is way clsoer than writing. Sparring even more so. I'm not saying that there is no value. Just that there may be methods more taylord to what you're trying to accomplish in the ms's than this particualr method. But if you enjoy it, go for it and utlize it in whatever way you can.

Thanks guys. I'll check his site out.

Love it!