sensei8

I can't stress it enough, so I believe it bears repeating it... Adults are the most finicky students about the MA than children can ever be!! So attracting adults to your dojang can be tricky but doable by trail and error. Even once a sound selling approach is initiated, different approaches have to be entertained. Shelf one idea for the time being, then at the right appropriate time, bring back an old approach from time to time. That too is reinventing yourself as well as your dojang. Find at least 5 top selling approaches, then rotate them quarterly. Have no less than 12 Discount Sales, once per month, for tuition's. Sales are initiatives, and prospective students need initiatives to attract them. Adults always are always looking for bargains to meet their monthly budgets. I always remember that adults must know the difference between a need and a want. I need to pay rent, utilities, food, medical, transportation, and things like those. What I don't need is MA lessons because they are a want, I don't need it, I just want it because I THINK I need it when I actually don't. Ok, that was my opening statement. Now, I'll address your reply to my first post in this thread. Short answer is yes. I want to turn a profit at the end of the day and the dream would be to have this as my full time income.. However I certainly do not want to sell out. That was great to read that your dojang IS a business!! That, I believe separates the difference between those MA schools that are successful compared to those MA schools that aren't. You'll never ever sell out if you're always doing the right thing across the board; you're integrity is valid, and without any ambiguity whatsoever. Once your integrity is gone, so is the MA school in a blink of an eye. Keep your integrity and you'll keep your dojang, especially with your community and adult students, prospective or not. I think that's the million dollar question. I teach traditional Taekwon-Do and I know other instructors within my org teach exactly the same curriculem to adults. My former instructor is also 5 miles away in a neighboring town and he has adults attend his classes. Do adults want to be taught or be lectured?? No, they want to be challenged without listening to a lecture; lectures bore the tar out of adults. An explanation goes farther than a lecture; briefly explain, then allow them to train. Imho, having your former instructor, one's who well established already, only 5 miles away isn't the most ideal situation. 5 miles away from you the same TKD is being taught by someone's much more knowledge and experience, and let's be honest, even though I don't believe in it, but Rank attracts prospective adult students; they don't understand, for the most part, the differences from knowledge/experience and Rank. My first dojo was 20 miles away from our Hombu. Within the San Fernando Valley in southern California, one can travel from one side to another side (West to East, South to North) in about 45 miles or about 1 hour. 5 miles is way to close to have that type of competition, unless your a far better CI AND marketer of your services, and prospective adult students have heard enough negative things about your former instructor, IF there are any negative issues. If you're stuck where you are, then you'll have no other solutions other than being far better across the board, especially in business savvy!! Yes. With the teenagers I have currently the work rate is high but with my family class I do make adjustments and try to offer 2 levels to each exercise we do. And of course they are mentally challenging. That's great to hear!! Keep changing drills up so that they're never ever bored to death. Never have dead air; always be doing something effective in improving your students MA betterment. 1 hour classes each. Would be about the same as any class you might attend at a gym. That's about right. Have you considered adding an extra 15 minutes to 30 minutes to that existing 1 hour?? At least to the adult time frame!! That would give them that much more time on the floor, and floor time is priceless. Yes and to be honest I prefer it. I knew already that you can teach, no matter the age, but I just wanted to read that from you in a no-nonsense way. You preferring adult students is cool, even though you teach all ages because the bottom line must be reached every month. I am both but my kids classes are separate from my adults classes (except for my family class). All of the classes are structured differently and have a different feel. The kids classes are higher pace with more focus on general conditioning and movement. My adults classes are traditional TKD as I was taught but also with more functional strength involved. Now, that's a solid approach that'll reach the community, in which it should attract prospective students of all ages. SELL YOURSELF!! You're the biggest drawing potential for your dojang...YOU!! Yes Nothing else needs to be said...except...now that you're meeting expectations, now EXCEED their expectations. What do you mean about yard signs? Out of the front of my property? At the moment I rent two locations, the Monday night cricket club is down a private driveway in a quiet residential area, and the dance school is on an industrial estate. Functionally I know that both locations are fine as I have a kids class at each which are near capacity and both the dance school and cricket club have people coming and going all the time. A yard/lawn sign is a sign that's found at any yard anywhere. Any yard!! However, public easements are the easiest parcel of land that you can place your yard sign at. Anywhere else might require permission from its owner; I stay away from private easements/yard/property. A yard/lawn sign has to meet local ordinances at all times. Check out this link... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawn_sign I use them all of the time, and they work!! If my sign is a sale, I make sure I take them down when the sale is over because it's the right thing to do, and it's Business 101. If the sign is not for a sale, I leave it up. I drive around weekly to check on my yard/lawn signs. Are they still where I left them?? Are they tattered/torn?? Are they standing still?? Are they being blocked by other signage?? Etc!! Make sure the sign is simple and readable as well as inviting, with the means of contacting you!! I life buy the maxim that says...7 times down, 8 times up. If someone takes my sign down, I put up 5 more in its place. Are yard/lawn sign allowed in UK?? I've used signage on city buses and benches!! Anywhere I can advertise, I do it at least once, and if profitable, then I do it constantly. I have a very successful boxing gym and a successful MMA gym in the same town. Less successful schools are a Kung Fu school, a traditional karate style, and also a very small school of the same Taekwondo style. The Taekwondo school I'm not bothered about as I have eclipsed them completely. Blanket your town, especially around those MA schools that aren't that successful, by passing out flyers and the like. Be that visual, and not hiding inside the dojang. You have to bring the business to you if the business won't come to you. After all, the cream does rise to the top, and you're the cream. No I haven't. How would you approach this? In my mind they are my competitors and we are all fighting for the same prospective students. The dance school has advertised for me as has the cricket club and I have students from both... but only children at this point. There's a saying... Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies even closer!! Your competition is your enemy. Contact them face to face to introduce yourself. Ask them if there's anything that you can do to help them; volunteer yourself to help them by maybe some yard work or cleaning their parking lot...something. This can lead to you to sharing guest teaching at each others schools. This is rare, but it's about approach, but it can let their students know what you offer, and oftentimes, they'll see that you've tangible things to offer that their style doesn't teach...and through that they can decide who's the better CI. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. There's risk in business at all time, and all risks are calculated, in which you benefit one way or another; not all profits are monetary!! I've done demos right across the street from my competitors more than once, and as often as I could. They hated me more, but there's no love in war, and business is war. I'm a member of all the relevant national bodies but I'm not aware of anything in my target location (town of about 90 000). I try to join any local governing bodies, usually in an administrative role of some type. This isn't about the schools, but about the Student Body within the local community; in which, you scratch their back, they'll scratch yours. That's how I started in Bakersfield, California, with a population of over 300,000. I helped in any and every way conceivable to improve the betterment of the local MA community. I'd Arbitrate most of the time. I competed in local tournaments often, winning one Grand Championship after another. I figured this for the most part. But I thought the flip side might be that female students would feel more comfortable with me. Very true!! But, again, sell YOU the CI, and not you the female CI. That still might not be enough, but if not, those narrow minded male adults will be missing out on quality MA taught by a extremely qualified CI. In the town? Population 90 000 or there abouts. Mostly mid-level education, mix of skilled and unskilled workers. 50% commute elsewhere for work. What else would be useful to know? Ages!! How many are females and how many are males!! How many families?? Those income medians!! How many college/universities students/ages?? Do those colleges/universities have a physical educations program?? Almost anything that can paint you a understandable picture of the area your dojang is in. That is something I'm trying to do, but more in that I'm trying to celebrate my students' successes and show that I taught them how to do it. You're doing what you're suppose to do to improve your students MA betterment. Your students' successes are your successes, in which it'll translate well into profits. IF YOU are a ranked competitor, that will attract students both male and female because they want to learn from a Champion, even if a competitor earns the top 3 spots consistently. You've been a coach for a MA competitive team, so, sell that!! That's the honey that attracts the bears!! I definitely agree. What ways do you suggest? My school isn't where I live and I confess to not knowing too much about the local area. I've been approached already to get my students to help out with the charity santa sled at Christmas (goes around the housing estates asking for donations for charity). I love what you do with the Santa Sled!! Your business IS IN THAT COMMUNITY!! You best better know about that community. What are the needs of THAT community, and find out how you can help them. Hold can drives or food drives or whatever other drive that can help THAT community. Not just to help your business, but more importantly, THAT community. Every community has needs, find out what they are, and then help them without expecting anything from it because its the right thing to do. Your dojang will start reaping its rewards in time!! Get in THAT communities Christmas Parade; wear your doboks and have a banner or two by having all of your students in that parade with you in their doboks. Do it year after year, no matter the season. Got to invent myself first. You've ALREADY invented yourself already to a certain point!! Had you not, you'd not have opened your dojang in the first place!! Sure, you have to fine-tune yourself from time to time. Those most successful are always reinventing themselves one way or another. I'd like to think I have this down as I work in sales for a living. Then SELL yourself to your community, then to your prospective and current students all of the time. They get 2 trial lessons and I follow up consistently. To be fair I have signed up 90% of adults coming through the door. My issue is in getting them through the door in the first place. To get them to and through your door will take long hard work from you across the board by selling yourself as the right choice throughout THAT community. Doing the right thing always trumps the wrong thing always!! What do you think you're not doing to bring them to and through the door?? That is what I'm trying to determine You're way to close to your former instructor, and I'd address that immediately. The proximity of your former instructor to your dojang might be bleeding your profit potentiality dry. What does your former CI have that you don't?? My kids classes are maxed out so I'm turning a profit already. I don't need adults but I would like to fill my class up. I'm trying to decide whether to drop the family class as it's costing me more than it makes me. I'd not close the family class because that'll impact your bottom line in the long run. It might send the wrong signal to your Student Body, in such a way that they'll start thinking you're about to close all together. Kill that class!! Have just the one or two kids class and the one adult class. If the numbers aren't there for the adult class, spend more time in THAT community to attract more adults. I'm trying very hard to create a brand. You can see what stage I'm at on my website: https://www.nuneatontkd.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/NuneatonTKD or Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/NuneatonTKD/ I've been working hard on the website and I now come up as the first result when you Google "Nuneaton (the town) Taekwondo" and all the various ways to spell this. I also currently come up as number 4 for "Nuneaton Martial Arts" and rank top 15 for "Nuneaton self defense / defence". I'm listed on all the various directories including number one listing on the Yellow Pages online. Your Brand Management is SOLID!! As above As I've said, I don't think my issue is in getting people to stay once they try my class. It's in getting them to my class in the first place. I've now introduced a waiting list for my Monday kids class as we're at capacity and my Friday class will soon be the same. I can market to kids (or their parents) but I'm struggling to hit on the winning formula for adults. Is the front door facing the street?? Is the traffic moderate or worse?? Is there signage that CAN'T be missed by anyone, particular the motoring public?? Signage helps make the dojang. I know you rent the space, and that limits what you can and/or can't do compared to what one can do with a commercial space all to yourself. But ask those you rent the space from if you can put and leave a A-Framed sign outside so that the public can see you're there. Ask them if they'll let you put some flyers up inside where they/it can be seen by others who visit that building. Ask them if they'll help you get your service out in the community. Your best marketing tool is WORD OF MOUTH!! Make sure it's a positive one always!! That begins and ends with YOU!! I promise that my next post will be much shorter!! I hope what I've shared is of some help to you. I could help you much more if I was in the UK with you, to see exactly what you're faced with.

Solid post, Noah!!

How do I stuff my 38 years of my owning and operating of my very successful dojos, and of my extensive involvement with the SKKA into this post?? This might be a lengthy post. Here goes...kind of a FAQ post... First, you've already received some solid advice thus far. Hopefully I can add something of value. Adults are the most finicky students about the MA than children can ever be. Can you be honest...really honest with yourself!?!?!? I sincerely believe you can!! Is your dojang a business or not?? There's no middle ground!! Is what your dojang offers, is it what adults want?? Are the classes challenging?? Are the classes long enough or too long?? Can you teach adults?? Are you a kids instructor or an adult instructor or both?? If both, then be both equally, otherwise, one will suffer. Are you teaching exactly what you promised?? Are you utilizing Yard Signs?? Are you utilizing any signs, of any type, meeting local ordinances?? Are your signs, of any type, positive/negative attention getters?? What type of MA schools are around your location and how many?? Visit those schools, if possible. Find out that which they don't have that you DO HAVE, and teach THAT. Have you reached out to other MA schools, no matter their MA style, to see if you can collaborate an beneficial network that'll increase each others businesses?? Is their a local MA network and/or Governing Body that you can join Adult males want adult male instructors for the most part!! Sad, but you'll have to change their narrowed minds in a very positive way. So that male students forget that you're a female instructor, and only see you as the CI PERIOD!! What's the demographics around your dojang?? Lean A LOT to your strengths because your strengths attract prospective students, especially adults. You compete quite a lot, in which I'm sure you're nationally and/or internationally ranked, and you've earned a ton of trophy's and medals and the like, and/or you've won a Championship or two or more!?!? IF SO...MARKET that!! You have to bring live and energy to you first, before you can bring any prospective student inside of the dojang. Get involved with your community much more!! Network your dojang as much as you can in your community, but aim towards the adult demographics. Reinvent yourself/your dojang often without ceasing and always!! Opening any type of MA school will take a keen marketing savvy, however, the CI better be able to teach with quality or all of the marketing in the world won't attract prospective adult students to your door!! How good is your phone interview?? How good is your opening/closing sales pitch?? Do you have a opening/closing sales pitch?? You have to sell yourself!! Prospective students are sizing you up and make their decision mere minutes once they meet you. How strong is your trial lesson(s)?? Do they give the student the unquenchable desire to want to learn from YOU?? Does your trail lesson wet the prospective students palette?? What's the dojang atmosphere like for adults?? Or is the atmosphere more kids oriented?? Will adults turn right around because your dojang projects a preference of teaching kids only?? Perception is reality to THAT person!! You and your dojang have ONE CHANCE to make that ever lasting impression, so you better make it a really strong great one. Are you enthused?? Is your passion noticeable?? Do you bore the tar out of adult students?? Location, location, location!! Is where your dojang conducive in attracting prospective adult students?? Is the size of your dojang measurable per its square footage per needed adult student?? How many students are needed to make profit?? Of those, how many adult students are needed for profit?? What are you doing for YOUR Brand?? Are you doing anything for YOUR Brand?? Can prospective adult students find your dojang easily?? I'll stop for now...sorry for so much, and these are the scratch of the itch of things to ask oneself. There's quite a lot to consider, for sure. There's no set formula for any MA school, however, there are set parameter in making ones business profitable.

Teaching how to fish!! Punching someone in the face is only temporary, and isn't a long term solution whatsoever. We MAists aren't suppose to be barbarians that fly off the handle at every given moment; thoughtless through unbalanced emotions. "We need emotional content; not anger!!" ~ Bruce Lee But what is "Emotional content"?? Maturity in not only techniques, but in actions as well. Not just doing a movement for the sake of it, but to express yourself through maturity. "To me, ultimately, martial arts means honestly expressing yourself. Now, it is very difficult to do. It has always been very easy for me to put on a show and be cocky, and be flooded with a cocky feeling and feel pretty cool and all that. I can make all kinds of phony things. Blinded by it. Or I can show some really fancy movement. But to experience oneself honestly, not lying to oneself, and to express myself honestly, now that, my friend, is very hard to do." ~ Bruce Lee As human beings...as MAists, we're accountable for not only our own actions, whether they be positive or negative, but ALSO accountable for the actions of others!! Many would say that that's not true, that we're ONLY accountable for our actions alone. However, what if our actions were the catalyst of the other persons reaction(s) across the board. Are we so blind and selfish that we MAists solve encounters with our learnt physicality for whatever that reason(s) might or might not be. As a MAist, there's no shame in just walking away...that too, is an action as well, and often time the most preferred. I'd rather teach how to fish, and not just give a fish because teaching how to fish, that, to me, is the desired long term goal. Imho!!

Happy Birthday to you, Happy Birthday to you...SING IT WITH ME EVERYONE...Happy Birthday dear Patrick, Happy Birthday to you...and many more!! Have a good, safe, and fun birthday, Patrick!!

Open time is still dojo time; gi required. Seems like an unfair strictness policy but the floor is the floor irregardless, in which respect of it is quite necessary class or not. Ether way, training is happening, and when on the floor training, gi required unless the CI says otherwise, which isn't often. Yeah, we seem to be the prissy stuffy bunch, don't we!?

Happy 17 and a half birthday, KF!! I share your sentiments exactly across the board, Alex. A concisely summarized post through and through, as always. Thank you for your thoughtful OP, Alex.

Solid post!! You respect Shu Ha Ri still?!? I believe that repetitions take a total different meaning because what was is no longer as one evolves across the board after so many quality years. my movements aren't as broad as they once were through those many untold years I've been on the floor. Repeatedly or that exact way?!? Only perfect people can repeat anything exactly the same way each and every time. Professional musician will be the first ones to tell us that they don't always perform said piece of music exactly the same way every time. Seeing that I don't execute techniques the same exacting way each and every time, it doesn't mean that the technique isn't effective...to own the target...is my goal.

It's not about quantity, it's about quality!! Sure, quantity can achieve, but at what cost?! How high is the percentages of achievement?! I prefer to subscribe to quality over quantity because there's something to Ikken Hissatsu; the sooner the better. The quantity MUST warrant through quality. If not, then it's a errant way. I believe in repetitious training because practice makes perfect IF executed properly each time; proper muscle memory. WARNING: Bruce Lee quote... "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times" ~ Bruce Lee

Solid post through and through!!

"Style" is just a word, and isn't meant to be the former or the latter in any MA conversation; it means nothing to me because it's not important. Whenever I hear the words "Style" or "Arts", I hear...well...words, nor the meanings and/or the intents. These words are just words, in short, they're like the forest that gets in the way of the trees, and vice versa. "Styles" and "Arts" have become recognized romances to be thrown around for no other purposeful reason than any other known word. I just want to train effectively.

Kenpo Karate does the same thing, i.e. Parting Wings or Five Swords or Detour from Doom so on and so forth. So does Okinawa-te, i.e. Snake in the hole or Snake out of the hole or Snapping Twig/Branch or Swooping Dragon. Interesting way to learn/remember the different techniques found within their respective MA styles, I'm almost sure that Chinese MA had a lot to do with that. And Shindokan IS partially based in Okinawa-te, however, not one technique uses illustrative labels/names whatsoever.

Is pain overrated?? If one doesn't stretch correctly, and often, pain will quickly introduce itself quite unceremoniously. The older I get, the longer I take in my stretching routine so that pain is minimized to the smallest degree, and hopefully none at all.

Excellent conversations, luv2flyjrn, wayneshin, and ineluki; I've enjoyed it a lot!!

Bruce Lee, imho, said it best... And... MA, to me, is just MA, not cultural based, but based on an individuals personal expression. Yes, MA are founded somewhere by someone, in that, there are strong cultural influences that can't be denied. Had I ever found a MA, I wouldn't be influenced by any western culture and/or the like because I've been born and raised in the USA. My newly founded MA would be influenced by movement as its core, through simplification of that said movement. I'm a human being and this human being cares less about labeling styles; that part within me has died!! Shindokan is an Okinawa MA style, birthed and raised in Okinawa by an Okinawan, in which he explicitly taught us that Shindokan, while it is a MA, it's a personal journey for the individual practitioner, and NOT for the Okinawan people only. Soke always said that he moves the way he moves and with that, he founded Shindokan WITHOUT any Okinawan cultural influences whatsoever...He told the powers that be in Okinawa just that when they tried to get him to join, and when they tried to force him out, after he told them what to do with the sun. My personal view of Chinese MA is one word...maybe two words...fluidity and effective!!

This speaks to me that change is inevitable, one way or another; hopefully the latter of the two.

No; I've not been part of the Board since I was elected Kaicho in 2008.

I've placed this topic here because I believe that it's relevant to MA CI's more than they might realize. Not every CI has a regular source of income outside of their respective school of the MA...like me. I've never known any other source of income outside of being a CI and/or the SKKA. The MA is all that I've ever known. I've been blessed with a quite fruitful, income through my MA career, whether it be as the CI of my dojo/retail MA supply store, income through the SKKA, and/or through conducting seminars. What if I only had the SKKA or just my dojo, and I had either of them taken away from me?? What would I do?? What company would be interested in someone with my particular skill sets?? My separation as President of the SKKA, while it being unfortunate, it was also equally important, albeit, intentionally planned. When I authored the new SKKA By-Laws, I wrote in the Kaicho (President) and Kancho (Vice-President) Redundancy Clause, of which, the entire Executive Leadership Team would be abolished once the SKKA posted substantial positive revenue growth stream consistently for five (5) years; that time has passed, inasmuch, that time is now. Therefore, the Board is the Leadership Team of the SKKA effective December 31, 2018 Midnight. What would I put on a resume??

One other thing I do is that I tell every parent/guardian/etc from day one that they aren't permitted to just drop their child off because I don't run a day care or the like; be involved proactively but know your role within my dojo.

Hello KeithBerg, have often tried to make a point here on KF about energy based concepts that turns in to tool based conversation instead. This is why my participation here has dwindled down to almost nothing. Perhaps Chinese energy secrets have been blown out of proportion that they have lost validity in main stream MA. When physics, body mechanics and a whole lot of understanding of how to pull the strings of another human better than themselves, as in balance and using gravity to one's advantage, this being understood by all, until then it will stay in the most part, either in the shadows of mystery or in the realm of con men, for profit or just for fun. Understanding chi concepts for health benefits and for quality of life is something every human being can use not just martial artists. Chi kung exercise helps martial artist to be stronger when ever needed and also developes that individual's martial quality, no matter what style or system practiced. Chi kung can also be used as a therapy to regain health, after serious health issue, having four heart attacks, it is important for me to do the right things to not only survive but thrive. So my advice is to get past the chi hype and look in to sustainable healthy lifestyle habits, by cutting back on thing that are unhealthy bit by bit and adding thing that are good for your health. Over time looking back on the healthy life style changes you have made, will have been the greatest gift that you could have given to yourself. One principle aspect of chi is understanding the quality of all things, from the quality of air we breath, to the water we drink, to the food we eat, to the way we train, so you become an accumulation of things built on quality products, qualty training and quality methods that makes a martial artist a formidable opponent of quality. Hi Alan; glad to see you!! To the bold type above... Your contributions here at KF have been substantial across the board. It's important to always consider that the wide plethora of knowledge's and experiences here at KF, and in that, we don't always read posts that are what we had hoped for. I hope that we'll continue to learn from your vast knowledge and experience, as once again illustrated in your most recent post on this thread; solid post!!

Not as much as we us to do when Soke and Dai-Soke were alive; it was a constant staple at the Hombu as well as affiliated dojo's within the SKKA network. Although I still witness Godans and above still engaging in Bogu Kumite, as more of a personal preference and not a rule. Shoot, Greg and I use to try to kill each other without any Bogu equipment...and we'd get chewed out often by Soke an ed Dai-Soke for not donning the gear, but they'd also just shake their heads at us in disapproval, but not stop us either. I miss those days. My most Senior students hate sparring against me in Bogu gear because they say I hit like a mule...they'll do it...but they have it....sheesh. I remember the very first time when I saw Bruce Lee doing a demo where his partner and him were wearing Bogu gear. Until then, I thought that we were the only ones doing that...but of course, I was just a kid.

Nope!! I was quite fortunate enough to have 3 quality CI: Soke Saitou, Dai-Soke Takahashi, and GM Suh. Nonetheless, I've encountered some Sempai's/instructors my days, however they were quickly weeded out, aka expelled, once discovered by either of those 3 quality CI for cause.

This is where rank is being placed in the foremost of one's mind whereas rank is thought of as something of undeniable importance to the MAist, instead of it being the furthest thing in one's mind. We instructors are the guardians of rank, as long as it's content and context is aligned properly. If there's a list of any kind, let rank be kept at the bottom of that list for all times, if it has to be considered. Whenever a Testing Candidate applies for an upcoming Testing Cycle, the Hombu searches on said candidate's Hard Card, which is filed and kept under lock and key at the Hombu, to determine several factors: 1) Age (This only applies to JBB applications; no Shodan privileges permitted) 2) Current Rank (Tenure) 3) Last Testing Cycle (Tenure) 4) Testing Cycle History Notes (Character Testimonials) My own Hard Card hasn't followed the SOP's in this regards much, if at all, except for my JBB. For example, I earned my Shindokan Karate-do Hachidan when I was 42 years old, not the prescribed age of 60; that's having my time spent on the floor just a mere 35 years. Inasmuch, I earned my Shindokan Kobudo Hachidan when I was only 51 years old...all under Dai-Soke. This link might give you an idea how my age rarely followed our By-Laws... https://www.karateforums.com/golden-anniversary-vt47469.html?highlight=golden

Maybe you grew...maybe!!

Congrats, Conrad665; well deserved!!