sensei8

After a very brief day of deliberations yesterday concerning my decision of not wearing my newly earned Kudan obi, an agreeable compromise was reached for all in attendance. My points were as follows: *Dai-Soke only wore his Kudan, then Judan, only during official occasions! Therefore, those identifier obi's were his "ceremonial obi's". *Dai-Soke never wore those "ceremonial obi's" day in and day out...never!! Dai-Soke had 2-3 different Yudansha obi's that he normally wore at his discretion. *Dai-Soke, when he was Kiacho, wore his Kudan obi, but only at prescribed times. Dai-Soke, when he became Dai-Soke, wore his Judan obi, but only at prescribed times. Both ranks, Kudan and Judan were awarded to Dai-Soke by Soke, in that, Soke left the wearing of obi's up to Dai-Soke only; Soke wasn't concerned with that. *To appease all concerned, since they called for this hearing, I offer this possible solution. I will wear the obi that depicts of my Shogo titles of Hanshi; three gold bars on each end. All in attendance agreed; Hanshi obi!! Still, whichever Yudansha I want to wear should be my decision and my choice!! Why? They're [Yudansha's] mine and I earned them and I should be able to wear whichever one I want to whenever I want to. While it's been suggested outside of the Shindokan circle that I need to let go of Dai-Soke's death, for numerous reasons. I will mourn him and honor him however I see appropriate, no matter how long I choose.

Good ones!!

If the standards have been lessened by the individual by their premeditated actions, then that individual must be held accountable. Otherwise, the standards mean nothing!! This has no bearing on my comment. Option 2 suggests a set of predetermined standards were met. This is in past tense; meaning it already happened. So they were already met. Premeditation has nothing to do with the scenario. The standards do not change based on intent. It's not as though an instructor sees a black belt quit and then says, "Well, you only have to be able to do 5 kata instead of 6 now." IF a particular person believes option 2 to be true, then the black belt title can not be removed. This has potential exceptions: An attorney can be disbarred and a medical license can be removed. The same goes for rank if some sort of rule/law is broken. As you've already stated..."It certainly depends on how you look at it." We seem to be looking at it differently. Within Shindokan, a Dan can be, and has been, removed by our Hombu; I've stated one example of that in previous posts. Standards are everything, and I believe that our Soke was speaking about standards whenever he did remove rank. That's on paper. In the heart of those Shindokanists that have experienced that type of Soke judgement, their knowledge and the like aren't affected; they remain!! I certainly understand what your point is. However, according to your bylaws (as I understand you speaking of them), a person who is not training is breaking your rules. Therefore, you don't fall under Option 2. More like a 3rd option: Yudansha are continuously graded against the bylaws/rules of the association. Out of curiosity, once their rank is stripped, what does their rank become if they return to train again? If your bylaws specify that your training is a continuum, the only logical place to start again would be the beginning (pseudo-philosophic arguments aside). To the bold type above... NO!! Our By-Laws aren't trivial, and by that I mean, students continual training isn't a concern, and if a student wants to stop training for whatever reason(s), that's none of the Hombu's business. Why? It's their journey and it's their business!! It is not a violation of our By-Laws and the like to not train. That's a personal choice and has no merit whatsoever. The example I provided in earlier posts involved my most senior Dan student, who had lied on his testing cycles petition. When questioned by our Dai-Soke, my student withheld the truth; lied about said criminal conviction. The conviction in itself doesn't warrant a Soke judgement, it's the mitigating circumstances that warranted such from our Soke. Had said student told the truth about said conviction(s) on the testing cycle petition, the demotion of Dan rank wouldn't have ever occurred. In that, it came to our Soke's attention by our Legal Team, that said student had been lying about said criminal conviction for quite a long time on many, many testing cycle petitions. How it came to our Legal Teams attention and/or what was the type of conviction and the other surrounding mitigating circumstances the caused our Soke to demote said student isn't a concern for our discussion, and in that, it's details are private across the board. Said Dan student has completed his PIP, years ago, and in that, said student was finally allowed to submit several testing cycle petitions for Hombu approval, and has achieved the Dan rank that was removed, and then some.

Exactly God / Jesus knows what's in your / our heart. That's one reason why He reduced the Ten Commandments to Two: 1.) Love God / Jesus before anyone or anything else 2.) Love your neighbor as yourself To the above bold type... YES!!

Well said... Totally agree... I wholeheartedly concur!!

What makes a MAist? Hhhhmmmmmmm?? When is ONE a MAist? From the very first day they started training or not until that one begins to understand or not until that one does understand?

Solid post!!

Where? Was he an extra?I saw him at least once. During the basement scene where all the prisoners are being kept and Bruce Lee is running through everyone with various weapons. Staff, sticks, nunchucks. Eventually he grabs a guy by the neck and front kicks another guy. Than they zoom into Bruce's face and he jerks his body (showing that he broke the guy's neck by his hair). That was Jackie Chan. I have also heard that he was in other spots of the movie. He was also in as stunt doubles for a couple of the samurai characters in "The Chinese Connection." Ever notice that Chuck Norris got his start in movies by having his neck broken by Bruce Lee? I always say that Bruce Lee is so famous that anyone who gets killed by him becomes famous too. To the bold type above... Now that's funny!!

Ouch!! Sorry to hear that!! Hang in there, and before you know it, you'll be rocking and rolling!! Also, you have karateforums to visit while you get better.

Yes...that's very AWESOME!! Thank you for sharing that!!

I believe that every MA out there has a cross-training match; the search will be worth the find.

I think some dan ranks could be a bit prideful, and not want to have others see a kyu rank scoring points on them, or good hits, etc. I expect to get tagged here and there in sparring, by no matter who I am sparring. Its all learning. Yes...I agree. Except, I would only modify your statement a wee bit... I would say that there certainly are dan ranks that are prideful and can't stand the idea of a kyu scoring a hit on them. As instructors, we expect to be hit and we are, quite often! Both, because we must fight at our students' levels (what do they learn if we "black belt up" on them and trounce them?), we throw stuff expecting to be blocked and hit, and because we're not perfect or Superman..! When a student gets a good hit on me, I tell them, "great job, you did well there". If not, and I continue to block them and get hits in on them, I tell them, "you need to work on this here or that there...there you go! Now you have it!" As instructors, we always go home with more bumps and bruises than our students... Solid post!! To the bold type above... Bingo!!

Welcome to KF!!!!!!!!!

To the above bold type... NO!! Speed is content, but not everything. Proper execution of any said technique is paramount over speed. Don't fret over speed and the lack thereof. Those who are speedsters now, just might slow down as they age. Has your Sensei addressed your speed negatively? I suppose that he/sho hasn't, and in that, his/her opinion is the only one that matters, imho.

If the standards have been lessened by the individual by their premeditated actions, then that individual must be held accountable. Otherwise, the standards mean nothing!! This has no bearing on my comment. Option 2 suggests a set of predetermined standards were met. This is in past tense; meaning it already happened. So they were already met. Premeditation has nothing to do with the scenario. The standards do not change based on intent. It's not as though an instructor sees a black belt quit and then says, "Well, you only have to be able to do 5 kata instead of 6 now." IF a particular person believes option 2 to be true, then the black belt title can not be removed. This has potential exceptions: An attorney can be disbarred and a medical license can be removed. The same goes for rank if some sort of rule/law is broken. As you've already stated..."It certainly depends on how you look at it." We seem to be looking at it differently. Within Shindokan, a Dan can be, and has been, removed by our Hombu; I've stated one example of that in previous posts. Standards are everything, and I believe that our Soke was speaking about standards whenever he did remove rank. That's on paper. In the heart of those Shindokanists that have experienced that type of Soke judgement, their knowledge and the like aren't affected; they remain!!

First things first...Welcome to Karateforums!! Tuite!! Google "Tuite" and a myrid of information should help you to start finding just what you're looking for!! Some of the information will be good and some will be bad no matter the media.

But what if you hadn't trained in 15 odd years? Let's put it this way: you begin your MA training under an instructor, who let's say is a 5th degree black belt. He has to move, retire, and falls out of training, due to whatever life throws at us. Would you not respect him as your instructor throughout the rest of your life? Would you tell him that you now out rank him, and no longer respect the knowledge and experiences he passed on to you as his student? Or, do would you still look at him as that 5th degree black belt that took you under his tutelage all those years ago? Does the belt/rank automatically beget respect? Whether he was a 5th kyu or a 5th dan if he has knowledge and experience that I would deem valuable then that garners some level of respect. But is he a blackbelt if he hasn't trained in any way shape or form for 15 years? I'd say no he isn't. He was but now isn't an active one. An inactive or dormant blackbelt. Just as physical skill requires constant practice and exercise, so does knowledge. I'd wager he'd forget a good chunk of that knowledge after 15 years of inactivity. To the bold type above...NO!!

I did endure the Kudan testing cycle, and in that, I am Kudan...ON PAPER, but not in my heart, as of yet!! I will, one day, wear it more regularly, but until then, I ask for patience.

No, my Dai-Soke would've understood because he knows me. He asks once, and then he asks no more!!

A bigger hornets nest than one could even imagine!!

The hearing is more of a Q&A session. No, they're not going to remove me; I'll still be Kaicho. No, their not even considering that at all. I suppose that there's nothing they can do. Why? The By-Laws protect everyone, and I'm part of everyone. They just want to know what can they do to understand my reasons, and I've told them that they might never understand my reasons because the journey I'm on is mine and mine alone to take. I am that figurehead; I'm Kaicho of the Shindokan Karate and Kobudo Association, and in that, I'm Kaicho over the Shindokan Hombu. In that, I'm Kaicho over the entire student body. My title warrants that!! I WILL wear said Kudan, for now, only during official occasions!!

And from: When I said "don't want to understand it" maybe I should have said "don't want to understand it further" or "don't want to work with it anymore". I did say that to those of you who train using methods without kata and can effectively defend yourself, then great. I think it's great you choose to do so... as I totally understand that the "kata" method of training does not work for everyone. I wasn't trying to make a point about it being the "be all end all" way, only that it DOES work if taught, studied, and trained correctly. I don't think anyone is bagging on those that do train kata for "real" purposes. What is coming into question is whether or not there is a better way to do it, and if there is, why not adapt? Correct study of kata is precisely about adaptation. As many of us "kata" guys train longer and harder through our kata, gain more experience, etc, more and more bunkai/oyo are revealed. These revelations are in the mind of the practitioner. Anytime we have an epiphany of a new bunkai/oyo, we put it to the test of whether it's practical & effective or not. If not, then it's discarded. As we continue our revelation of bunkai/oyo, our fighting style and training methods adapt to meet it (we must alter our training method to include these "new" bunkai/oyo). Too often when I'm confronted with this argument, "why not adapt" equals "why can't you see that my way is better". I'm not saying de facto that's what you're doing, only that that's my experience. I usually counter with, if my method allows me to adapt and be effective in my own self-defense, why do I need to change my method? As I mentioned before, I have no bone with those that don't train in the same methods that we kata guys do. Again, if it works for you, great. This really isn't kata in the sense that we are speaking of it here. Not all drill work is kata. In the argument that you are making, then your own kihon training is essentially kata training, but I think we know that isn't really the case. There is a difference between learning and drilling technique, and training kata. If we go with your argument here, then Karate doesn't have 3 K's, but only 2; kata and kumite. I think the real question is, and tallgeese alluded to it, is this: Is it really necessary to learn forms before learning self-defense applications? In my opinion, it isn't. Another way to describe form or kata is "structure". The structure of any technique we train with must be practiced over and over for many reasons, including muscle memory, posture / control of center / balance, power, proper application, and so on. Boxers do it, wrestlers do it, MMAs do it, MAs do it. Even in kihon training we are working to improve the form or structure of our techniques. IMHO, the only practical difference between kihon and kata is that one is sequential form / structure training and the other is non-sequential form / structure training. Quite often the two are merged a bit in our training; we merge them in various combos with kumite, as well. For instance, kata is merged with kumite in the form of partner kata like the Yakusoku Kumite kata. Kumite is merged with kihon in any sort of partner drills or partner free-form drills. If it's not necessary to learn form / structure of any technique, and then proper application of said technique, no matter one's training methods, why learn the technique at all? IMHO, the three of us (tallgeese, bushido_man96, myself) share a common mindset when it comes to self-defense training. I know there are many more here on KF that do, as well, I just haven't had the pleasure of having a discussion with them all, yet. This has been a great discussion. Journey on guys! Solid post!!

But what if you hadn't trained in 15 odd years? Let's put it this way: you begin your MA training under an instructor, who let's say is a 5th degree black belt. He has to move, retire, and falls out of training, due to whatever life throws at us. Would you not respect him as your instructor throughout the rest of your life? Would you tell him that you now out rank him, and no longer respect the knowledge and experiences he passed on to you as his student? Or, do would you still look at him as that 5th degree black belt that took you under his tutelage all those years ago? Only the individual practitioner can answer these question!! It's not written on some stone as the MA gospel truth. In your questions, you'll receive an unlimited number of answers.

NO!! Black belts of that type will struggle deeply against a kyu ranked student of the lowest level.

Imho... Any form and/or kata that doesn't contain Bunkai or the like is empty and useless across the board. Kata isn't for the next rank test!! Again, IMHO!! I concur. Nonetheless, the the three K's should be learnt together; none before the others or separate.