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Hey all, It was on this day, 24 years ago, that we launched this community. Last year, at this time, I opened up public testing for a new version of KarateForums.com on modern software. We were still on our (very) old software that eventually would have led to this community breaking and simply ceasing to exist. After months of testing (between the staff and member testing periods) and years of testing behind the scenes that I had completed with @Chrispian, we migrated to our new platform over an intense 4 days culminating in an opening on September 9, 2024. Over 8 months later, it's clear to me that our combined efforts were a big success. Our slowly breaking platform is no longer breaking and, in fact, updates to the latest version of our software have been installed multiple times, helping to ensure our platform remains online and secure. All the work that @Chrispian and the folks at Invision Community did (along with my annoying insistence, ha) to ensure that passwords would work paid off. Whether you registered in 2001 or 2021, your password worked when our new site launched. It has all worked so well, and I'm grateful for your help and support. 24 years is such a long-time, and with it, there are so many people that have made a mark on this community over the years. I'd like to extend a thanks to all the members who made amazing contributions since our migration. This includes @ashworth, @aurik, @Bradlee, @bushido_man96, @Chuck, @crash, @DarthPenguin, @Drew, @Fat Cobra, @Himokiri Karate, @JazzKicker, @KarateKen, @Luther unleashed, @Montana, @Nidan Melbourne, @pandaGIRL, @Revario, @RJCKarate, @ryanryu, @sensei8, @Spartacus Maximus, @Wado Heretic, @Wastelander, @Wayofaswede, @Zaine, and others! Thank you! I celebrated today by uploading an avatar for the first time in several years, since I tried to change my old Yankees logo into something else and realized avatars were 100% broken on the old site! On that note, I'll continue to bring enhancements (mostly small, occasionally bigger than that) to this community, but the main thing I wanted to do was to get us on modern software that would be up-to-date, because that will naturally introduce new features over time, too! My ability to do things here always rests on the time I can squirrel away from chasing my toddler and other pursuits. Thank you to everyone who has made KarateForums.com a special place to be and, if you're reading this, that's probably you! This also means that next year will mark 25 years! Which is a massive milestone. Which means we now need to think about ideas to celebrate that! Please feel free to let me know if you have any. Thanks again, Patrick

CHRONIC KIDNEY DISEASE UPDATE: I saw my kidney doctor, Dr. Marwah Al-Khazaali, M.D., and she says that my last bloodwork shows that my numbers went down!! That means that I’m in between stage 3 and stage 2, which is great news!! My kidney doctor was very happy with my progress!! She wants to see me in 5 months!! She wants me to stay away from SALT!!!!! *NOTE: I’m sorry that I’m posting ALL of my different medical updates within my prostate cancer thread, and I know it might be quite confusing to follow, but I thought it might be best to post ALL of my medical updates here in this thread instead of starting new medical threads for each.

After six pages of discussion, I think it is clear that the proposal is full of risks. Injury, cost, retaining students, ect, and furthermore is very limited in what it teaches the students. The risks are much higher than the reward. I encourage the OP to reconsider this proposal, if that has not been done already.

OH MY GOSH... I just realized that if you look closely at the URL of this thread: https://karateforums.com/topic/52125-24-years-of-karateforumscom/ "52125" 5/21/2025. Today! That is wild! That number is simply an accumulating number that counts upward with each new topic posted here. I can't even begin to fathom the odds of that happening, like having the exact number of threads/topics here over 24 years to lead up to the day we turn 24 where the number of this topic matches the day we turn 24.

Obligatory: I am not a lawyer, and you must refer to the laws in your country/region/state/locality/etc, because they can be VERY different depending on where you are. Where I live, now, use of force in self-defense is justified if the victim sincerely believes there is a credible threat to their safety or the safety of someone else. This means that, in your hypothetical scenario, use of force is justified if you sincerely feel that your safety is threatened by the aggressive man invading your personal space. Generally, deadly force is only justified to stop grievous bodily harm or death, so it would not be appropriate to, for example, stab the aggressor in this scenario, unless they were larger/stronger, supported by a group, or had a weapon of their own, and you felt that your only way to stay alive was to end their life. You may have to testify to this in court. It's also important to bear in mind that, legality aside, maiming a person or ending their life with a weapon is VERY traumatic, and you will almost certainly need mental health services after the fact. As for the techniques or weapons you use, there is generally a force continuum that should be in place in your self-defense skill set to appropriately deal with threats, because if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, and if all you have is a firearm, everything looks like a target. People like to say "there are no rules in the streets" and "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6," but there ARE rules--they're called "laws"--and if you end up in prison, you didn't make it home safely, which is the whole point of self-defense. The force continuum that you use is going to vary based on your training, but for me, I like to group things as follows: Low-risk threats (verbally abusive, escalating speech, shoving, etc.) - Escape and evasion, or restraint using pins and joint locks Medium-risk threats (punches, kicks, headbutts, etc.) - Escape and evasion, or strikes, throws, joint dislocations, and strangleholds to disable/knock out attacker or deescalate threat level High-risk threats (significant physical disadvantage, group violence, weapons, etc.) - Escape and evasion, or purpose-built and improvised weapons, strikes, throws, joint dislocations, and strangleholds to potentially kill or disable/knock out attacker or deescalate threat level Now, escape and evasion isn't always possible, and sometimes even when it is possible, it may not be the best course of action, such as in the case of a home invasion where you need to protect your family from the threat. Additionally, everyone's lines between those levels of threats will vary, based on a number of factors, not the least of which will be physical characteristics and level of training. The more physically gifted you are, or more well-trained you are, the more intense a threat generally needs to be for you to consider it an escalation. Someone who is 5ft tall, 100lbs, with zero training, could see a threat as high-risk that someone who is 6ft tall, 200lbs, with 10 years of training would consider to be a low-risk threat. Of course, your level of awareness is also going to come into play, because someone with a heightened sense of awareness could notice a knife in someone's pocket, or someone circling to get behind them, raising the threat level to high, while someone with a lower level of awareness might completely miss those things and mistakenly believe that they are in a low-risk situation.

I have personally tossed around and dropped Kyokushin 1st, 2nd, and 5th Dans, while I was a 2st Dan, myself. These sorts of generalizations and style-vs-style claims don't hold up, and don't serve any real purpose.

You say "Always" but there is a flaw to your logic. Kyokushin in itself as a whole has their own specific rules when it comes to kumite in the dojo and for tournaments. In comparison to the "other" styles where they all often compete against one another with a unified ruleset. At tournaments here in Australia we have National All Styles (NAS); which all styles (including Kyokushin) compete under the same rules. And Kyokushin Fighters often are at a disadvantage when it comes to those bouts. Then we have Karate Australia; which operates under World Karate Federation (WKF) Rules. So no Kyokushin Dojos have joined or compete in those tournaments. So for your logic to work effectively; you would need fighters to fight on an even basis where the competitors can demonstrate their styles to their fullest. Which in my mind is close to the UFC. Now something I do when teaching, but with Adults with sufficient experience and their consent and forms signed stating that they didn't hold me, the club or the other participants liable for injury. Is to do rounds of sparring; but as close to realistic as possible so slaps, grabbing, pushing, shoving all that fun is ok. But to start our rounds we just bow to each other as a whole, and go. But we do also rounds with specific situations; but we don't give the "attackers" or "defenders" any guidelines on what to do. Just to either be a threat or stop the fight.

I would add a little subtle comment to this; figure out how to train around minor injuries and not make things worse.

This is very true, and hardly any self-defense/Martial Arts instructors ever address this. It is very real and it is very important to get the help if needed.

NANI!!???? They CANNOT go 100 percent!!!! I train in sambo/judo and believe me, you cannot go 100 percent. In fact BJJ fighters get tons of injuries and ground fighting can be brutal because some people cant control themselves and spaz out big time trying to power through the next move. In judo and Sambo, you have to breakfall like a million reps for very long time and have EXCELLENT conditioning, you have to be very strong and flexible to endure all the turns, twist and high impact throws. This is not something you gain just walking to a grappling gym even if its a more of a lax ground style absent of big throws and takedowns. Also you can easily pull a muscle when you are defending submission attempts and getting suddenly reversed or countered in submission exchanges and scrambles. If you train with Japanese and Russians, they take conditioning VERY SERIOUSLY and are stringent with making sure students are well trained in the basics to keep themselves safe from the chaos of grappling and the intensity that comes with it. BJJ culture has a tendency to, how do I put this, glamorise what they are offering...

So I saw Ian yesterday at his dan grading (he was grading for nidan). I asked him about that sokusen geri -- the third time, Gushi sensei hit him hard. Of course, Ian, being the good Uechi Ryu karateka he is, kept a stolid face. Gushi leaned in and whispered, "That hurt, didn't it?" He definitely nodded. It turns out he had a bruise on that thigh visible from across the room (his mom noticed too.) Fortunately being the young guy he is, he recovered in a few days.

Uechi-Ryu originates from Pangai-Noon kung fu; when Kanbun Uechi (the founder) trained in China, he learned 3 kata: sanchin, seisan, and sanseiryu. In terms of modern day Uechi-Ryu, these kata are now required at white belt, black belt (shodan), and yondan. I would not say that "sanchin" is a beginner's kata, though. It *is* the foundation of our style. You can learn the basics of Sanchin fairly quickly, but we train it everyday, and we are tested on it at every level, from kukyu to judan. One of our sayings is "all is in Sanchin", or "always return to Sanchin". We can always describe a stance or kamae by "start with Sanchin, and then do this". It isn't so much a beginner kata for us; it is the foundation of our style. After Kanbun Uechi passed and his son Kanei took the reins, he realized that the leap in required understanding from Sanchin to Seisan was too great for many students to handle. Therefore, he and some of his senior students created 3 new kata: Kanshiwa, Kanshu, and Seichin. These "bridging kata" each introduce a small set of concepts which are then assembled into Seisan. Each kata adds a few new techniques to a student's repertoire. Therefore, when a student starts to learn, say, Seichin, there are only 3 new techniques they haven't already seen. Likewise, Seisan only introduces 3 new techniques as well. Once a student earns his black belt rank, there is still quite a gulf in understanding from Seisan to Sanseiryu. Therefore, Kanei introduced two additional bridging kata; Seiryu and Kanchin. Again, each of these kata only introduces 2 or 3 new techniques. And once the student is proficient in Kanchin, there is really only one new technique introduced in the final kata of the system (sanseiryu). However, Sanseiryu is a very long kata, and involves moving in eight directions, instead of just four. So trying to learn new techniques AND learning the movement patterns would most likely be considered overwhelming (I don't yet know Sanseiryu). So to circle back to the original question, in Uechi-Ryu, the kata are sequenced such that each kata introduces a new set of techniques, and each kata builds on the knowledge of previous kata. For example, Sanchin introduces the basic stance, fundamental posture, fundamental striking techniques. Kanshiwa introduces the idea of stepping off the line of attack, receiving and countering a strike, and a few other things. One thing that is fundamental in Uechi-Ryu is also that anything you learn at one rank/kata level is supposed to be performed at *all* of your kata. For example, at shodan, students are expected to start using hip pivoting to generate power. This is expected to be included in *all* of their kata.

Hey wait! I got Member of the Month??? COOOOOOOOOOL!

To put it in a simplified way, forms/kata that are considered beginner level in a system are the ones that introduce for the first time the most basic and essential skills and principles. The techniques and core elements in them are usually developed and expanded upon in all subsequent ones taught. Most of the time these forms are purposefully short, but the length or number of steps isn’t always an indicator or whether a kata is XYZ level. Some short kata are deceptively complex. Another trait the lower level kata share is that they are often the oldest or among the oldest in the system.

Statistically, the vast majority of male-on-male violence is made up of punches to the head, and I have seen many Kyokushin fighters struggle with defending head punches because of the emphasis on punching the body in their competitions, even though knees and kicks to the head are allowed. I expect this ruleset would have the same result.

It's been a full year now without a drink. I promise this is the final update

In Uechi-Ryu, we have a saying, "All is in Sanchin", and as far as stances go, this is no exception. Almost all of our kata and drills are performed in Sanchin stance, and this stance is pretty basic yet subtle. You can tell someone "feet shoulder width apart, move one foot forward slightly, turn it in about 30-45 degrees." However, that is the beginning of Sanchin. There are quite a few subtleties that you only learn after practicing Sanchin kata for some time and having instructors test your stability. We perform kata almost exclusively in Sanchin, we perform our drills in Sanchin, and to a certain degree, we are expected to fight/spar in Sanchin. The other stances we utilize are all derived from Sanchin, and are used in specific situations for a specific purpose. We have a neko dachi (cat stance), which starts in Sanchin where you basically shift the weight to the back foot and lift the front foot up to rest on the toe (not the ball of the foot). This is frequently used prior to or immediately following a crane (e.g. shin) block. We also have a version of Zenkutsu dachi, where you start from Sanchin and use your rear leg to drive yourself forward, usually to do an elbow strike into an opponent's sternum. Where your foot naturally lands -- that's a Zenkutsu dachi. Finally, we have a low stance, nominally a shiko-dachi, which starts from a sanchin stance, and you slide your front foot forward and to the (out) side enough to drop your center of gravity such you're below your opponent's center of gravity, and an elbow strike will land right at your opponent's sternum. Again, these 3 other stances are transitional stances, and used for specific brief sequences. For the vast majority of our kata and drills, we live in Sanchin

At this testing we had a white belt, a high orange belt, a low blue belt, and a recommended black belt testing. Overall, I saw good things from all the students. I saw good technique from top to bottom (rank appropriate, of course), and improvements are coming along as I would expect. White belts: all kids, and they were pretty nervous. I’d seen them all do their form in class well, but here at testing the nerves showed up. Their first run-through of Chon Ji hyung was all over the place. We reset them, talked with them, and I had them all take a deep breath and let it out, and had them go a second time. In their first run, they all botched up the second half of the form. On the second go, they all did much better. And they all handled the one-steps pretty well. Their memory is good, they just need to be more confident in themselves. High Orange belt: I saw a need to get more fully into stance, especially after turning into a front stance. Just stepping a little too shallow. There was also some confusion on crossing arms inside or outside based off whether the technique was a block or a strike. Otherwise, good technical execution. I’d like to see more power. On a side note this was one of the twins that tested. I was surprised they both didn’t test, as I figured they’d hang together in rank. But this may be good for both of them. Low Blue belt: Good technique. It will get better as the student learns to relax the shoulders and hips more to generate power in the strikes. I saw knife hand blocks that looked more like strikes (extended too far). In both the forms and one-steps, I saw points where foot position was not quite right for side kicks and follow-up kicks in combination. Pre-pivots can help here, along with focusing on where a kick lands and how the foot lands to be in better position for the next kick. In sparring, she was getting more kicking worked in, better combinations. Great to see! Recommended Black belt: lots of good stuff here. To start the testing off, the student had to read aloud the essay required for the rank, answering three questions. I was encouraged, as the student stated he did not plan on quitting after getting his black belt, as he had previously told me his plan was. I’m encouraged, but we’ll see what happens. The low rank forms looked good, done the way a black belt should do them. I saw some shuffle stepping, or “sugar-footing” on stance transitions, but this can be worked on. He got all the forms done, and all the one-steps. For board breaking, a lack of body alignment showed up, and this has been addressed in class, so it’s up to him now to start fixing it. Observations for the overall testing: when doing the 270 and 180 degree turns, the higher ranks especially need to not stop-step when turning. They need to focus on the whole transition happening in one step and keeping the stepping foot close to the base foot when turning in order to retain balance better and make foot placement much easier. Sitting back in back stances more is needed. I told the students when they are sparring, if they keep doing the same thing and getting blocked, it’s time to change it up! For final comments, the main point I made was that I enjoy testings a lot, because they not only show us where the students are in their progression, but it also shows us as instructors what we need to focus on in class in order to correct the things we see. It tests us as well as them. Finally, the CI handed out new rank, and all the black belts came up and addressed the new black belt on our experience in hitting that rank, and how it was kind of a new beginning, and what was in store going forward. Me and the CI kind of both had the same thoughts; I told him he now had to make the decision to either be someone who got a black belt once, or he could say that he is a black belt by continuing his training. I also mentioned that he was at a point where he could say he’s someone who does TKD, or he could become a Martial Artist, and told him to think about that. Overall, another enjoyable test. Unfortunately, my work schedule shifts to afternoons with weekends off, so I won’t be getting to TKD class for a couple of months, unless something weird happens with the schedule. So I’ll be the absentee instructor for a while.

I think the evolution of stances as the way we see them in forms/katas now has more to do with aesthetics than actual practicality when using techniques. I agree that stances should be seen as the means for transitioning between techniques or generating power in techniques. I see more and more applications of this as I train in Aikido, which is not concerned about static stances, but the movements required to get from point A to point B.

Apologies for being late to this. I will inevitably parrot some thoughts in my answer that have already been presented, so apologies for a lack of obvious originality, but I will try and introduce some nuances from my own perspective. To parrot the earlier posts to an extent: The perspective of those in the governing body who are responsible for the syllabus, and where they feel kata ought to be placed. In reviewing syllabi, I would say I have observed several factors which seem to have dominated the thinking of the syllabus architects: 1. The length of the Kata 2. The athletic challenges of the Kata 3. The number of novel movements present (Hence novel applications) 4. Relevance to other core exercises (Pre-Arranged Exercises/Drills) 5. Does it introduce knowledge or build upon/challenge existing ability To demonstrate this observation I am going to break down the nine core kata of the Wado-Ryu Syllabus. These, in my experience, are the most adjusted from their Shotokai/Shito-Ryu equivalents which are the origins of Otsuka’s kata. Plus, I only earned a Shodan in Wado-Ryu, and I belonged to a multi-style organisation, so I never really learnt the kata beyond the core nine as my teacher felt the Shito-Ryu or Shorin-Ryu versions were better, and we changed over to a shorin-ryu club at the start of 2013 which was only a few months after I got my Wado-Ryu black belt. Anyway, onto my analysis: Pinangata – Built around Kihon, but contain novel sequences, though they are largely variations on fundamental techniques. They also introduce the primordial shapes of the system (Stances and Postures) in a sequential manner and the kata also very brief. Does include the use of two hands at once, but also predominantly involves hikite. A lot of the movements are also found in the Kihon Kumite of Wado-Ryu. Kushanku – The longest kata in the system. Hironori Otsuka appears, in my eyes, to have made it align much more closely to the previous Pinangata movements that are borrowed from this kata. In the Shito-Ryu and Shorin-Ryu, the Pinangata and Kusanku Dai, have a lot of very similar movements but there are subtle differences. That, however, is an aside point. As a kata it is more athletically demanding because of its length, and it has a couple of athletically demanding moves such as a drop and rise from the floor, and a jumping front kick, but it largely reinforces elements from the preceding kata. Naihanchi – Builds upon Meotode (Hands working together) as introduced in some of the Pinangata. To perform the kata well also requires proper use of posture and the waist because you cannot rely on momentum to give an impression of speed and power. It also has a rooted stance, while the previous kata largely impress light-footedness upon the karateka. Seishan – The first part of this kata largely builds on the lessons of Naihanchi. It works from a rooted stance and features a lot of movement on the spot requiring good use of posture and the waist. One novel element though is the focus on controlled breathing. It also uses a combination of fast and slow movements, where in comparison all the earlier kata focus on sharp and graceful movement. The second half features some challenging movements for someone with poor balance, such as the knee lifts to a step behind, a front kick from a cross step, and a cycle kick near the end. Thus making it more athletically demanding. Chinto – On the surface, Chinto is quite alien to the preceding kata. It contains few examples of kihon waza, unlike the pinangata and kushanku, nor does it have a focus on rooting like Naihanchi and Seishan. However, when one looks closely we can see the points it is building on. There is significant use of the hands working together, as in Naihanchi and Seishan, and it has athletically challenging movements like Kushanku, and a number of the sequences can be seen as variations on novel movements from the Pinangata and Kushanku. Plus, the single leg stance introduces and demands the ability to root, have good posture, and use the waist, to be effective. Chinto, should, in theory challenge you to get better at all the previous lessons. It is also a relatively long kata. I think, based on my observations, I would argue that you can identify the Pinangata and Naihanchi as beginner kata, Kushanku and Seishan as intermediate kata, and Chinto as an advanced kata. They increase in length, athletic challenge, and introduce novel concepts in a progressive manner, before culminating in Chinto where all the prior lessons are needed to perform it well. This can also be seen in the Goju-Ryu core syllabus of 12 kata. Gekisai Ichi and No contain all the core techniques but done in a hard manner, with a focus on forward momentum, north south-movement, and the use of a lead hand. Saifa (Which I believe may be Miyagi’s reorganising and interpretation of Naihanchi) introduces the uses of angles, the blend of soft and hard movement, meotode, and movements on the spot requiring use of the waist and proper posture. Along with Sanchin and Tensho these are Kihongata/Heishugata/Tanrengata which are intended for physically conceptualising principles and developing a martial body. These are all core to progressing to the Kaishugata which focus on applications, and the Kaishugata generally progress in length, athletic challenge, and number of novel techniques, and each generally builds upon the theme of the last. In both examples, the earlier kata are preparatory for the latter kata. They introduce principles relevant to the following kata, and which are needed to perform the following kata properly, and to understand the new principles the later kata are introducing. They prepare the body for the evolving challenges of the later kata. Anyway, in short, and to give a more direct answer to each query To repeat myself - 1. The length of the Kata 2. The athletic challenges of the Kata 3. The number of novel movements present (Hence novel applications) 4. Relevance to other core exercises (Pre-Arranged Exercises/Drills) 5. Does it introduce knowledge or build upon/challenge existing ability Yes, the first kata teaches the process of learning kata. Thus, it should introduce the most essential components to build the learning process on. A poorly chosen initial kata can derail the learning process before it begins. Yes, but different people will determine difficulty in different ways. Depends on the system. Some focus the training of principles through Kihongata/Heishugata/Tanrengata designed specifically for physically conceptualising principles, and isolating them for practice. The later kata should then be performed with these principles while focusing on the novel possibilities for applications. Others will introduce the principles as they become relevant to the applications of the kata. Depends on if the syllabus was built around an understanding of the concept of Bunseki, of which Bunkai is only one element. Without that knowledge a kata syllabus could be purely built around obvious athletic challenges. To give a more personal answer. I do not believe there are innately beginner and advanced kata. There are kata that have been designed for beginners and novices as mentioned about, however, I agree with Wastelander that kata are as complex as what you put into them. As you gain greater understanding, and you revisit kata you learnt earlier, you should be pulling back and applying later lessons to them. To give an example from my teaching approach. With the Pinangata my focus is on Koshi, the use of the waist, as a foundation for the development of Muchimi, Gamaku, and Chikuchi. Pinan Nidan – Use of the Waist with techniques off the front hand Pinan Shodan – Use of the Waist with techniques off the back hand Pindan Sandan – Use of the Waist when using hands in tandem Pinan Yondan – Use of the waist in quick succession Pinan Godan – Using the waist in foot work As the student progresses, they should then, and I do guide them in this, take the lesson backwards as well as forward. I also introduce Naihanchi Shodan early with a focus on Muchimi, and Sanchin with a focus on Chikuchi. As students advance, they should then bring all the lessons together in all their kata. Thus, as they progress their performance of the kata should become more advanced, turning them into advanced kata as they find more innate challenges within the kata to overcome. With that said, another angle to consider is what I call “Flavours” in kata performance. Each system has its own core which is reflected in its kata performance. Shorin-Ryu is often quite staccato, with deliberate breaks between techniques to generate and perform techniques explosively. Goju-Ryu often has a strict divide between hard and soft techniques, giving their kata a fast and slow rhythm. Many systems influenced by the WKF Competition circuit have a more dynamic appearance focusing on kata being done in sequences, and motions being sharp and powerful, or slow and graceful, which give them a percussive flow done well, or lead to looking rushed done badly. Many systems influenced more recently by Chinese sources often have a flowing appearance with the moments of fixture being brief, and the stances often being less defined and more mobile. My point being that, over time, all the kata in your own system might become “beginner” like in difficulty to you. However, were you to try a kata from a system with a different “flavour” their beginner or intermediate kata may feel advanced to you. Because it demands a different kind of martial body, or it places emphasis on different elements of motion you have not trained for. To be lazy, and not make this post any longer than need be, here is a link to a post on a topic on seisan: https://karateforums.com/topic/51847-seisan-kata/page/2/#findComment-574610 Most versions of Matsumura Seisan can be traced back to Kyan Chotoku, and other versions traced back to Ryu Ryu Ko. Personally, Chito-Ryu’s Seisan looks closer to a version of Matsumura Seisan than it does Goju-Ryu’s. And Kyan Chotoku was Chitose’s first teacher. However, I do believe that it is an amalgamation or is Aragaki’s version as Chitose seemed to favour Aragaki’s teachings in his creation of Chito-Ryu. Furthermore, Funakoshi’s Hangetsu looks like Matsumura Seisan, and he got his Seisan from Aragaki. A counter point to this is that Miyagi, the founder of Goju-Ryu, purportedly got his from Higoanna, who reportedly received it from Ryu Ryu Ko. Aragaki Seisho was a senior student of Ryu Ryu Ko to Higoanna. If they both got their versions from Ryu Ryu Ko, then Chitose is plausibly doing Kyan’s versions due to the differences. Alternatively, Miyagi changed his Seisan, which would not have been out of character for Miyagi. Either way, nothing definitive. The following is speculation, and I have little to no evidence. I have been told by a handful of old Okinawan Karateka that kata in old Okinawan Martial Arts, and to an extent Chinese Martial Arts, that most forms have two or three versions. Either a Sho and Dai, or a Sho, Dai, and Gwa set. As in modern karate some of these were taught sequentially. But under some teachers you would abandon the less complex version as you learnt the more sophisticated and comprehensive version. Alternatively, you would be taught the version that the teacher thought suited your level of ability, or the version they were still confident performing if age and injury were a factor. The differences could be because they received different versions from the same teacher, or as you have speculated, the students chose to keep the version they preferred. It is a kata that is both rudimentary and complex. It can be used to introduce effective fundamentals including rooting, breathing, and generation of power through the waste. However, it can present some athletic challenges, if one wants to put them in there. It is easy to break into sections for easier learning, and it contains the majority of the most fundamental techniques. I can see many arguments for it being the first kata of a system Now, I will add some brief thoughts on things I have learnt since in my research which are relevant to the linked post. Patrick McCarthy appears to have been the primary populariser of Aragaki Seisan, and he originally learned the Kata from Richard Kim. Due to Mr McCarthy’s reputation as a historical researcher, I somewhat naively assumed he labelled the kata Aragaki Seisan because of a high degree of confidence it was related to Aragki Seisho. However, two points have since come to my attention: 1. The label of Aragaki Seisan was given by Richard Kim. It could have been arbitrary as there is no evidence this kata is connected to Aragaki Seisho. 2. The current Aragaki Seisan kata promoted by the IRKRS is Patrick McCarthy’s own personal interpretation of the kata based on lengthy study of many versions. Thus, I must discount it as evidence in my original hypothesis. Arguably, Richard Kim may have received the kata from Arakaki Ankichi, hence the choice of kata name, who apparently joined Yabu Kentsu in his brief excursion to Hawaii in 1926, but that is a hypothesis based on very slim documented evidence. I am doubtful the credited Arakaki Ankichi is the famous one, as both the surname and forname are relatively common Okinawan names, and there is no documented evidence of the famous Arakaki visiting Hawaii that I can find. Plus, even were it the famous Arakaki Ankichi, there is no documented connection of him to Aragaki Seisho. Either way, it leaves that trail cold for now. Furthermore, with additional research I have conducted since, I have become sceptical of the claims of Nakaima regarding Ryuei-Ryu’s origins. Again, I have detailed those reasons for doubts in another post: https://karateforums.com/topic/51859-okinawan-ryuei-ryu-karate/#findComment-574680 If Chito-Ryu’s Seisan, which may come from either Aragaki or Kyan, does come from Aragaki it could be considered the “true” Aragaki Seisan. Then my standing theory still holds water but this loss of two key point of evidence has made it leaky. I plan to revisit it in time. I know Seishan, Naha Seisan (Goju-Ryu), Aragaki Seisan, Higoanna Seisan, and Miyahira Seisan. Through all those versions the key point is to have a forward focusing (Not necessarily square) stance, flexibility in the knees, and the hara lowered through the hips. You should be able to bend yourself forward at the hips without losing balance. Sanchin artificially forces this by having the bladed fleet. If you try to stand completely upright with your feet in sanchin position you will immediately feel off balance, and the only way to correct it is to sink. But yes, you are essentially trying to adopt a stance adapted for wrestling. Naihanchi Shodan – the more you learn about karate, the less you feel the need to change it. It, on the surface, contains all the fundamentals needed to make all of your kata better, but the more I study it the more find principles hidden in plain sight, but I didn’t have the vision to see them previously. I have previously created three kata, however, I do not teach them. For various reasons, but I created them when they had a purpose, and then the purpose faded. Kimarite I created for competition training purposes. I based it on 12 combinations/fighting manoeuvres I identified as functionally the same from many different sources. The kata could be performed in a line, or with turns designed to imply throws. Each sequence had a pad-work drill, and application drills. The application drills were based on using the sequence as an offence, as a counter set up or, to use fencing terminology, as part of a counter riposte. I also created variations to adapt to different rule sets and Miai: thus, a variation for sundome, a variation for full-contact striking, and a set which included clinches and the takedowns. I used to teach it to my students interested in competition, or used it as a tool when I did guest coaching. But I have not taught a competition session since before Covid, and I havve subsequently developed shadow work exercises connected to the Pinangata and my organisations basic bunkai, along with pad work drills, which keeps everyone grounded in the traditional karate, but gives flexibility for competition training. I also developed a kata called Shirokuma. A nickname I was given when I was in Okinawa because I was white, but hairier and bigger than a native member nicknamed Kuma. But also I built it around a Kata my Shorei Kempo teacher taught me simply called Bear Kata. I designed it to focus on body-to-body grappling techniques, as at the time I felt traditional kata only really dealt with arm length grappling and striking. Subsequently, as I have learnt more about bunseki, and more about the principles behind kata performance, I have had this erroneous view corrected, and I find plenty of body-to-body techniques in almost any kata now I know what to look for. To repeat myself: the more you learn about karate, the less you feel the need to change it. But I do feel there was a benefit in creating the kata, as they led me to a deep appreciation and knowledge of the old kata. Lastly, I created a kata which became a tribute to a friend called Tsukai. I based in on Wado-Ryu’s Jitte, his favourite Kata, but I incorporated the five fighting combinations of the Kempo Karate system he taught. At the time we were trying to build a club together, and we were going to ground it in the Kempo Karate he taught as he was bringing along the student base, but we were going to introduce exercises and Kata from Wado-Ryu, which we both knew and where we knew each other from. Thus, I was trying to create a unique kata which blended the two traditions, and also sneak in some principles from Shorin-ryu. Sadly, he died during the covid crises, but I completed the kata as a tribute. I taught it to his students, but whether they still practice it I do not know. I try to run through it on his birthday as a private tribute, but it is not part of my regular practice.

That’s quite presumptuous to indicate because, again, it’s the practitioner that one must face on the floor of battle and not the style itself. Imho.

Well thats what we're all here for! To ask questions and have them answered from people who may know how to help. This is why I love this site, so we can all learn something or even have a change of perspective.

we had / did similar drills at the lower / intermediate belts. we called it one step sparring drills. another is having one person stand static in the fighting position, either foot forward and circling them while throwing kicks or punches to open areas, good practice for beginners to ease into sparring. as one progresses movement can be added to the static side from just back and forth "bouncing" or "weight shifting" to more in-depth movement. it is a usual practice for more sport based systems but is actually good for everyone, to learn coordination. control, aim, and footwork. we didnt start sparring until green belt (4th belt in our style), and these were some of the exercises that would ease each level up to the point of full on sparring. but are still fun and useful even after getting into the full sparring stage. or for those with injuries or just no desire to full on spar. thanks, i like hearing others training methods also

We have several different sets of 2-person drills. At the white and yellow belt levels, we train in yakusoku kumite dai ichi and dai ni. These are basic prearranged sparring drills that start with a basic back and forth sequence of punches and blocks. They start off with one punch/block, one punch/block and then move up to sequences of 2 or 3 different attacks/defenses. As students progress to green belt ranks, they learn our kyu kumite and kicking drills. These present more complex sequences of attacks and defenses, and these also start introducing the concept of manipulating the attacker. For example, in our kicking drill, we have a sequence where the attacker comes in with a side kick (yoko geri). The defender sweeps the kick out of the way, which encourages the attacker into a spinning hook kick. As students mature, they start making these connections, where if I do this as a defense, the attacker is likely to do that. At brown belt and black belt levels, we practice our dan kumite drill. This drill introduces the concepts of flow, and it is expected to be done in renzoku style, that is, in one seamless drill with minimal pauses between sequences. Nominally it is done in 12 sequences -- partner A is the attacker for sequences 1-5, partner B attacks on sequences 1-5, partner A attacks for sequence 6 (which involves a takedown/throw), and then partner B attacks for sequence 6. However, for advanced students (1st kyu and up), it is expected to be executed as one flowing drill. It is also at this level that students are expected to start demonstrating a balance between speed, power, and technique. Last, but certainly not least, we have our hojo undo (supplementary exercises) techniques. These are very similar to kihon drills in other styles; they consist of short sequences derived from our kata. For example, one of them is circle block/front kick. At the beginning of class we will do these right after our warmups. However, these can also be done with a partner, where the partner attacks with a mid-level lunge punch, and the defender replies with the assigned hojo undo technique.

Also, at the risk of sounding slightly rude (if it is then i apologise) can i ask what level you have gotten to in Kyokushin and / or Shotokan? I am much junior rank wise to a lot of the people on here (people don't usually make comments here based on rank which is refreshing) but some of the sentiments i am hearing are similar to ones i have heard before from newer students / members who have not trained enough to work out why some things are as they are. Sorry if this embarasses them but @Wastelander has multiple dan ranks in a variety of styles (including practical karate ones) and @bushido_man96 is a 5th dan in TKD plus works as a LEO (so will have real hands on experience of defence situations) and they both have laid out cogent points as to why body only striking as you espouse may not work for self defence. If you are equally as credentialled / skilled then fair enough but it is possible that this is a case of "you don't know what you don't know".

Thus far, you’ve received solid feedback to your OP question. Instead of providing more detailed information/explanatios to your enquirer, please allow me a more simplified answer… Whether a kata is or isn’t either “beginner” or “advanced”…one’s Governing Body makes that decision.

Thank you all. This is quite the honour to have been awarded this five times. It is humbling. Again, thank you all.

Gosh time moves fast!

congrats, I joined way back in 2003, have been active/vocal for some of that time. drifted away for spells and then just "lurked" from time to time. but was always happy to see the forum was still around. i always knew that if a question arises that i do not know the answer, or would like to see others views on certain M.A related topics the answers can be found here by either searching or just asking. there is a massive wealth of knowledge to be gained from those of you here and on these pages that have accumulated over the years. Thanks to all of you for making this possible and continuing to do so.

Thanks for the shout out and having the site. I am enjoying my time here.

I think these two quotes fit together very well. when teaching defense, especially for women, one of the first things to teach is situational awareness. being aware of your surroundings at all times. when driving through a parking lot to getting out and walking to the destination. awareness of who is around you at all times while out alone or in public in general. someone who looks clueless or occupied with no regards to their environment are far more likely to be picked out and targeted...teach confidence, awareness, and to walk tall and with purpose while also teaching the self defense aspect of techniques and fighting. just being aware can prevent someone from entering your space to the point of the original posts scenario and prevent having to face the "what-ifs" put forth thus far....

I don't think the Super Bowl will ever by pay-per-view. The NFL makes too much money selling the rights to the Super Bowl, and networks pay it because they can make it back in advertising.

When you are looking at matters like this, from a legal standpoint, then you have to consider what a reasonable person might do in this situation. Not necessarily consider what skills he has or doesn't have. What is a reasonable response to someone entering your space unwarranted? To push them away or strike them? If you felt fear for your safety, then yes. The key is CYA - Can You Articulate you actions after you take them. You are very focused on what actions one should or should not take in a scenario such as this, but what you should be more focused on is if you can articulate why you took the actions you took against this aggressor. I'm the same way, and it's what I teach in my Defensive Tactics sessions. Too many bad things can happen while backing up. For one, you probably aren't able to see where you are going and what you might be bumping into or tripping over while backing up. You might run yourself into a wall, limiting your movement; you might step off a curb and get hit by a car; you might trip on something and fall on your back, inviting a ground fight you may not want. These things in themselves are all dangerous, and add to it the variable of an unstable individual acting towards you in a threatening manner, and it adds up to not good all the way around. Agreed. This is the amount of stepping back I teach in DT. Drop step back into a good base, and from there, everything else should be forward or at angles.

That's an awesome training experience, @aurik. You are right about doing the same things from someone else's perspective; it helps you to see the same things in a different light and brings on new thoughts and methods of doing things. Sometimes you don't need to learn something different, just the same thing differently, to open avenues of growth. It's really cool how he pulled Zach aside to work with him. Awesome for him.

Awesome news, Bob!

Glad it hear it! Keep up the good fight

I don't see anything wrong with it. None of us are obligated to watch sports.

that is great news, prayers for you to keep seeing a rapid and complete full recovery

Saw my new Oncologist, Dr. Imran Ahmed, MD, at 8:15am. Key results: A) PSA 0.05 **No concerns!! B) Testosterone 235 **Goal is 276!! Dr.Ahmed says there’s no concerns that this number increased by 160 in 4 months; to be expected and this number will level out!! Dr. Ahmed was very pleased with EVERYTHING!! My kidneys are doing much better, my diabetes is nearly GONE, my weight is dropping, and my cancer is STILL in complete remission!! My next appointment with Dr. Ahmed is September 19, 2025 at 8am.

I've learned to accept that I will be around alcohol and people who are drinking my entire life. Restaurants, live music, holiday parties, etc., drinking is deeply rooted in the social aspect of American culture. Just have to say no and always be a non-drinker. I find riding the fence doesn't work. Not only am I opening the door to falling back into excessive drinking, but once the drinkers see you drink, they pressure you to drink next time. At least that is my experience. However, if you are not a drinker and stick to that, they tend not to pressure at all. I'm pretty much over the bar scene, which is where most of the pressure takes place, so that makes it easier.

Doens't have to be the final update! I encourage you to continue giving updates here and there. Because it is good to vent somewhere, and we're all here to listen

I think we also have to assume the assailant is alone and so are you? If the bad guy has 2 friends behind him, tying him up in a joint lock won't work. Initiating anything is a bad idea. If I'm with my family, I might stand my ground to protect them.. while I tell them to run, start the car, whatever. If I'm in a place with security or police nearby ( a bar with bouncers, a street festival) I'd want to get their attention. Seems to me you have a "duty to retreat", before making any moves. I think you're "spidey sense" is the decider for when things are about to happen.

Thanks for asking, DarthPenguin. It is, yes! We're catching up.

I think it's a combination of things; the desire to pass things onto others, along with having the time and resources available to do so. Possessing the ability to teach well is another strong point.

We have reached complete absurdity in the NFL Draft.

all good; pretty easy to miss or overlook when going through the posts. And no I don't think you were being disrespectful. It certainly never came across when reading your posts. To me having a higher grade is useful because it at least shows u know the curriculum and have been assessed on it. Unless you made your own "style". I defer to some of my students who compete; and they are the ones that are either on the State or National teams. But only when it comes specifically to either their specialty or I am running a tournament style class or specific class.

Don't forget about game three. It is Thursday at 9pm Eastern. The rare one day off between changing cities. Usually there are two. Big game three for both teams, Vegas wins and they regain home ice advantage, if Minnesota wins they are up 2-1 with the momentum at home for game four on Saturday. I don't know the actual numbers, but it feels like in a 1-1 series, the team that wins game three usually wins the series. Mood: Cautiously optimistic Three games on the schedule for Wednesday. Capitals and Kings both winners, both up 2-0 in their series, Stars come back and beat the Avalanche and have a 2-1 series lead.

@DarthPenguin this is from his initial post. Don't forget that @Wastelander is very open in regards to his training. Considering he is a Yondan in 1 style; it is impressive in itself as not many clubs have someone with that rank in itself. Same goes with @bushido_man96 and his years of experience. Like I'm a Nidan, but some have said I have the knowledge/experience for a 3rd/4th Dan. As I am well overdue to grade for my 3rd Dan in itself. But on the same hand; Rank and Experience can be two vastly different beasts. Like I haven't graded for the last 7 years; when I very much could have to be promoted to Sandan then be eligible to grade to Yondan this year. Even if I can't train; I am still educating myself and breaking down the basics to their biomechanical movements and doing the same with kata. Then working out how they can be best utilised for Self-Defence Routines. With respect; I do encourage discussions as to why we often do things, as it should enhance our understanding of how things work. But for that to work; both parties need to be respectful to one another.

The time spent doing things that are unrelated and not specific to martial arts varies wildly from one instructor/dojo to another. It also depends on how much time there is for one session. Currently the sessions are 2 1/2hours to 3hrs on 4 evenings per week. Quite common for a dojo in Okinawa/Japan, but this is much longer than the average dojo elsewhere apparently. Moat of that time is spent doing karate things. Only about 20-30min is used for general training involving traditional weights and the usual body weight exercises(push-ups, etc…). Correct technique and how to do these is explicitly taught, but it is something emphasized as “out of dojo training”. It is expected that everyone practices this and kihon as much as possible, like “homework”

Congrats Ken.