No first attack?

[Sho-ju]

Funakoshi also gives an example of being backed into a fight and then using force first. I can't think of the quote off hand...

[brickman]

as I am not big on the ENGLISH spelling of Japanese words I will do my best....but the idea here is between go-no-sen and sen-no-sen...both are attacking...but in different ways. So, in essence you are just waiting for the time to be right in both.

 

I too used to think that blocks were just that.....but they are attacks. If someone says a leg block does not work....then they have the wrong idea.....it is not a block per se...it is an attack. And done correctly a very effective one at that. Having said that, it must be noted that one must MOVE in order to block a kick effectively.

[Sasori_Te]

I'll give my opinion now. Is everyone listening?

 

I believe the concept in question here is "karate ni sente nashi" there is no first attack in karate. This is a statement made on many levels.

 

It gets meaning from karate being a defensive art

 

It gives meaning as to the proper mind set for karateka.

 

It gives meaning on how a karateka should act when confronted with a physical confrontation. By that I mean basically that if your opponent punches first then your counter should land before the punch arrives. Block and counter at the same time. This is, I believe, higher level karate at a basic level. This concept is also found in a lot of Chinese martial arts. This is where all of the training in technique, relaxation, focus and proper movement come together. There is no first attack because a first attack means a first blow landed, which inturn could decide the encounter. Opponent moves, you move faster and end the encounter.

 

As for the other conversation about all katas beginning with blocks, here's what I tell my students and peers. Use a low, middle or high block to block the way you were taught (I'm talking about Shotokan and westernized karate "blocks) and see how successfully you can defend against my punches and kicks. I also tell them where and how I'm going to be punching and kicking. I haven't had one person succeed in this yet. After showing them the concepts behind these "blocking" movements and explaining their uses they can usually block me pretty easily after that. I would have to agree that there are no blocks in kata, at least not the way that most karateka are taught.

[GojuRyu Shawn]

Arrrggghhh! I was writting an article on this.. Oh well to late to stp now. Ill just pinch some of Angela's words..

 

Katas dont start with a defensive move.. they can all be used to hurt. There are no blocks in any kata. They all have a more useful application. Even a basic punch has more application when you consider the hikite hand.

 

You should also bear in mind that there are entry techniques not shown in the kata. By the same token there are also exit techniques, these arent shown because they are (should be) obvious, ie: take them to the ground, if they are still a threat.. stamp on their head

 

Trying to keep distance in an SD situation.. good idea. Very hard to implement. Most start of close up. Very few ppl run screaming at you like a mad man.

 

But in theory, katas usually start with a defensive move.

[informer]

defend against the intent,..if I feel you are going to smash me and I feel fear and it really looks and feels like you are going to hit me then forget about it I'm smashing you first...LOL strike first and strike hard, no mercy LOL

[AngelaG]

But in theory, katas usually start with a defensive move.

 

No they don't. That is just how some people choose to interpret them. Why would you ever do two moves (block/strike) when you can do one (strike). All you are doing is giving them time to hit you again.

 

I would recommend that you read "Reflex Violence" by Earle Montaigue. He has a section describing the "Rules for Fighting". Rule number 4, Never use two steps in fighting. I'll quote a small section:

 

"You must make your defence your attack. Never block, then attack, make your block your attack. His subconscious switches tell him that you will attack next after you have blocked. But if your block becomes your attack, he has not had time to think about it. You have attacked him during the time that he is supposed to attack you!."

[Killer Miller]

AngelaG, based on your original post - one element is missing in the confrontation factor. You learn in Karate to recognize and understand "Breathing Timing." Breathing timing is heavily taught in Shotokan. This means that you understand and develop your own breathing timing. The by-product of this training is to also recognize the opponent's breathing timing as well.

 

How does this relate to the topic? If a situation arises that requires a defensive or offensive strategy, you will know when it is necessary by understand what the other person's intent is by his body actions or breathing timing. Many people are mad or upset about something and show no signs of physical intent - based on their body actions and breathing timing. However, as soon as that changes and there is an indication that his body actions and breathing timing has changed for physical intentions, then you immidately create distance. This sets the tone to the upset person that if he plans to create physical harm, he/she better think twice. If they do attack, your are in a defensive/offensive position.

 

BTW, very nice post...

 

- Killer -

[Killer Miller]

You forgot about Sen. This is to react before they execute a technique. If you truly understand breathing timing, you know when they are about to attack you before they actually attack you. They definately think twice about an altercation. I've had guys in the past say, I wasn't going to attack you. I would know better though...

 

- Killer -

as I am not big on the ENGLISH spelling of Japanese words I will do my best....but the idea here is between go-no-sen and sen-no-sen...both are attacking...but in different ways. So, in essence you are just waiting for the time to be right in both.

 

I too used to think that blocks were just that.....but they are attacks. If someone says a leg block does not work....then they have the wrong idea.....it is not a block per se...it is an attack. And done correctly a very effective one at that. Having said that, it must be noted that one must MOVE in order to block a kick effectively.

[Killer Miller]

Shorin Ryuu brings up a good point on the legal aspects of Karate use. If you are like me and truly understand breathing timing, you know that the other person is starting an attack to you. You pick up his breathing timing, or minute contractions, indicating that he is going to attack (and I say "he" because I don't believe in attacking females regardless of the situation), you blast him before he has a chance to react. Altercation over! He knows he tried to attack you, you know he tried to attack you, you blasted him, and he is not going to try another thing at all...

 

Now the legal side of this. Let say you have other persons observing this altercation. They know "nothing" about martial arts. To them, it looks like you made the first move in the altercation. In fact, and technically, it was him that made the first move... How would you prove in a court of law that he actually did attack first. All the witnesses would say "I did not see the other person attack first and that you threw the first punch."

 

I always fear that particular scenario!

 

- Killer -

[doubletwist]

Now the legal side of this. Let say you have other persons observing this altercation. They know "nothing" about martial arts. To them, it looks like you made the first move in the altercation. In fact, and technically, it was him that made the first move... How would you prove in a court of law that he actually did attack first. All the witnesses would say "I did not see the other person attack first and that you threw the first punch."

 

I always fear that particular scenario!

 

- Killer -

 

This is one of the things I've learned in Kenpo. Any time there is a fight, there are 3 points of view involved. Yours, your opponents, and a witnesses. Now this has several important aspects to it, one of which is the importance of the witnesses point of view. If you get into a fight, and a cop comes and takes a report, he is going to get the story from you, your opponent and the witnesses. Guess which story will be the most important... the witness. Both you and your attacker are likely to color the story in a way that will make it seem like it's not your fault [no matter who's fault it really is]. In theory, a witness probably does not have any reason to do this [assuming they are not affiliated with either of the fighters of course].

 

Now this does have it's pitfalls, but I learned this from a cop, so this is really how it happens. What you have to do, is know this before and during the altercation.

 

As an example. You are in a semi-dark parking-lot. You KNOW this guy is going to hurt you, so you decide to strike first. You start yelling/saying loudly, "Stop, don't do that! Don't do that!" [or something along those lines].

 

Now the witness might not be able to see clearly which is which. But afterwards, the witness will tell the police that they clearly heard *your* voice yelling to stop. Sure it's sneaky and low, but that's the story that the police will go with.

 

Of course, we also learn to drop the attacker and run so that we aren't there when the cops show up, although I guess that has its bad points as well.

 

Anyway, just another thing to think about.

 

DT