Zanshin

I was at a work social gathering a few months ago, when chatting with a senior manager he asked me when I was going to stop Karate!!!

He was not having a pop at my professional ability, he was just bemused as to why a grown man would give over 3-4 nights per week in pursuit of "pyjama" wearing karate exploits

Anyone else come across this sort of "karateism" (I made that word up, as in racism (although I am not in anyway trying to mock racism cos it just ain't funny).

I suppose it may be an age related thing, but I would like to ask if anyone else has been subject to this sort of thing.

Does training get in the way of your school, college, career etc. and if so how do you manage it and respond?

Or is it just me.

Z

Pinan Nidan.

Just great.

Well I'm a 5'3" petite female....so I'm rather UNintemidating It would probably be different if I was a larger male. Then again I've seen some students respond automatically to larger males, where as I have to show them I'm serious by my actions before some of them will listen.

I understand what you are saying because i, myself, am a female. But i've always grown up with what my instructor calls 'a command presense' he's always told me, 'when you walk into a room, everyone knows it'. which is quite flattering and very nice of him to say. but i have to say, i usually don't have too much of a problem with people listening to me the first time, and i never have a problem with people listening to me the second time.

I am a very athletic, tough 5'6" female...skinny but muscley. So, i am not as fortunate. I don't quite have that innocent look down yet.

But you are a girl at the end of the day!

Yes, at the end of the day I am a woman...but that doesn't make any difference.

Well yes it does really.

Being a young woman in karate, taking a class and really "owning" it, takes a lot. Perhaps more than it would if you were a fella.

If I was being brutally honest, I think it would take a lot for a female instructor to impress me. Sure most women at senior dan grade levels are great technicians but perhaps there is only one female Karate-ka that I know of that truly cuts the mustard in this predominantly male world of karate. And she is truly extraordinary, so perhaps thats my point. If you are a woman and want to make a mark, you have to be extra good.

That's a very interesting remark and opinion. Maybe women only have to try harder to impress people because that's what people think oh she better be amazing if she's a female doing Martial Arts. If it's a man in Martial Arts nobody questions it. But in fact, i think women artists are better technitions, at times, because men usually, but not always, have that brute strength mentality. To do something without strength is quite a skill in itself. There's no reason why women should be extra good because they're woman. If you wouldn't ask the exact same of a man, why would you ask extra of a woman.

And if you were a woman instructor in martial arts and you couldn't "own" your class, you should not be an instructor...and that goes for a man too.

Indeed,

I should start by saying that I wasn't seeking contention by posting what I did, in fact, I was trying to agree with you.

I think that sometimes, as people escalate through their karate grades eventually it is assumed (in some associations at least) that they will become a teacher - kids to start with and then on to adults. I know, cos in the eighties I was one of them!

Reality is however it takes a very special person to do that properly... more than a perfect technician really and again I will agree with you that some of the best karate technicians that I have ever met are women.

My missus occasionally helps out at our Karate club, and when she does she has all of the kids eating out of the palm of her hand. A bit of that is because she is a mother of two, another is that she is a high school teacher by profession. And of course she is a very good Wado-ka

That said, there is a huge gulf of difference IMO from technical ability and the"budo" mindset that is effectively the missing link in terms of converting the physical actions of karate into a workable and meaningful MA.

Now I will hold my hand up here to be old and sexist, but IMO not many women have that instinct built into them. Some yes, but in the most part women are not born fighters.

And thats a good thing me thinks, cos my missus would batter me senseless most nights lol!

Those are all very good points. And let me tell you i could not agree with you more about the whole everyone expects to be an instructor someday thing. Some people have a more inept ability than others, some don't even have the ability to teach at all...i know this because i am friends and a co-worker of people like that. I know first hand because i was selected out of three other second degree black belts when we needed a new Kyo Sa. Now i've been teaching for years since, and people are still bitter about it...but on the other hand they've done nothing to improve their ways of teaching and bad teaching habbits. As an instructor, i get to choose who covers my classes in my absents, and i will not feed my class to the wolves by giving them someone who can't teach, or will scare them, etc.

Teaching for everyone, men and women, is a skill and is truly an art in itself, and not everyone is meant to teach.

As for the "budo" mindset, i'd like to say that everyone has it, men just prove it daily because they feel the need to be macho. Just because women don't throw around their "Budo" mindset daily doesn't mean they don't have it. If you do a survey on the street, and you start swinging at males and females you are going to get about the same amount on each side to swing back, karateka or not karateka.

In my opinion, no one is born a fighter necessarily, it's your background, lifestyle, struggles, and experiences that determine who you are. I am tough because i've had to be tough all my life, whether it's been for my family, my other, my co workers, whatever. I was also tough because i was brought up tough...the not afraid to break a nail kinda gal. And granted many women aren't brough up that way.

I don't think you could have technical ability without seeing yourself in a fight. I don't think you could ever do it, but not use it when it comes time.

So, most women, usually "save it up", for when they need it. You know...you ever see those TV shows or commercials where some feeble old lady gets picked on, or mugged or something...and then she beats the livin crap outta the guy with her purse alone? Woman have that instinct, we just don't go around grunting, flexing, and all that good stuff.

and Indeed, no contention sought my friend...all in good fun. all in a post

Well personally, I don't think that everyone has a "Budo" mindset. It should not be confussed with Machismo which I would agree that many girls do seem to have in abundance these days.

As for fighters being born or taught, its the whole nature vs nurture thing I suppose. (gees there a trip down memory lane to my college years.)

For what its worth I believe that you can make people better fighters through a good system, however now and then you get the "flukes" of nature come in to your dojo and they are just great natural fighters.

Not wishing to pull the "I am older than you card" out of my left breast pocket, but I have seen both sides.

You get a natural fighter into your dojo and you will know.

Well I'm a 5'3" petite female....so I'm rather UNintemidating It would probably be different if I was a larger male. Then again I've seen some students respond automatically to larger males, where as I have to show them I'm serious by my actions before some of them will listen.

I understand what you are saying because i, myself, am a female. But i've always grown up with what my instructor calls 'a command presense' he's always told me, 'when you walk into a room, everyone knows it'. which is quite flattering and very nice of him to say. but i have to say, i usually don't have too much of a problem with people listening to me the first time, and i never have a problem with people listening to me the second time.

I am a very athletic, tough 5'6" female...skinny but muscley. So, i am not as fortunate. I don't quite have that innocent look down yet.

But you are a girl at the end of the day!

Yes, at the end of the day I am a woman...but that doesn't make any difference.

Well yes it does really.

Being a young woman in karate, taking a class and really "owning" it, takes a lot. Perhaps more than it would if you were a fella.

If I was being brutally honest, I think it would take a lot for a female instructor to impress me. Sure most women at senior dan grade levels are great technicians but perhaps there is only one female Karate-ka that I know of that truly cuts the mustard in this predominantly male world of karate. And she is truly extraordinary, so perhaps thats my point. If you are a woman and want to make a mark, you have to be extra good.

That's a very interesting remark and opinion. Maybe women only have to try harder to impress people because that's what people think oh she better be amazing if she's a female doing Martial Arts. If it's a man in Martial Arts nobody questions it. But in fact, i think women artists are better technitions, at times, because men usually, but not always, have that brute strength mentality. To do something without strength is quite a skill in itself. There's no reason why women should be extra good because they're woman. If you wouldn't ask the exact same of a man, why would you ask extra of a woman.

And if you were a woman instructor in martial arts and you couldn't "own" your class, you should not be an instructor...and that goes for a man too.

Indeed,

I should start by saying that I wasn't seeking contention by posting what I did, in fact, I was trying to agree with you.

I think that sometimes, as people escalate through their karate grades eventually it is assumed (in some associations at least) that they will become a teacher - kids to start with and then on to adults. I know, cos in the eighties I was one of them!

Reality is however it takes a very special person to do that properly... more than a perfect technician really and again I will agree with you that some of the best karate technicians that I have ever met are women.

My missus occasionally helps out at our Karate club, and when she does she has all of the kids eating out of the palm of her hand. A bit of that is because she is a mother of two, another is that she is a high school teacher by profession. And of course she is a very good Wado-ka

That said, there is a huge gulf of difference IMO from technical ability and the"budo" mindset that is effectively the missing link in terms of converting the physical actions of karate into a workable and meaningful MA.

Now I will hold my hand up here to be old and sexist, but IMO not many women have that instinct built into them. Some yes, but in the most part women are not born fighters.

And thats a good thing me thinks, cos my missus would batter me senseless most nights lol!

I practise Wado. Its founder (Hironori Ohtsuka) practised Jiu Jitsu from childhood, then trained in karate with Funakoshi. He later founded Wado Ryu, blending elements of Jiu Jitsu with karate.

Hi Fish,

What you are saying isn't entirely wrong but also not the whole picture.

The following is a great essay by Tim Shaw, in which he digs deeper into what makes Wado what it is, taking into account its heritage.

Have a read and tell us what you think.

https://www.wadoryu.org.uk/jujutsu.html

Good luck with your dan grade BTW.

Well I'm a 5'3" petite female....so I'm rather UNintemidating It would probably be different if I was a larger male. Then again I've seen some students respond automatically to larger males, where as I have to show them I'm serious by my actions before some of them will listen.

I understand what you are saying because i, myself, am a female. But i've always grown up with what my instructor calls 'a command presense' he's always told me, 'when you walk into a room, everyone knows it'. which is quite flattering and very nice of him to say. but i have to say, i usually don't have too much of a problem with people listening to me the first time, and i never have a problem with people listening to me the second time.

I am a very athletic, tough 5'6" female...skinny but muscley. So, i am not as fortunate. I don't quite have that innocent look down yet.

But you are a girl at the end of the day!

Yes, at the end of the day I am a woman...but that doesn't make any difference.

Well yes it does really.

Being a young woman in karate, taking a class and really "owning" it, takes a lot. Perhaps more than it would if you were a fella.

If I was being brutally honest, I think it would take a lot for a female instructor to impress me. Sure most women at senior dan grade levels are great technicians but perhaps there is only one female Karate-ka that I know of that truly cuts the mustard in this predominantly male world of karate. And she is truly extraordinary, so perhaps thats my point. If you are a woman and want to make a mark, you have to be extra good.

Sorry correction, young lady.

Well I'm a 5'3" petite female....so I'm rather UNintemidating It would probably be different if I was a larger male. Then again I've seen some students respond automatically to larger males, where as I have to show them I'm serious by my actions before some of them will listen.

I understand what you are saying because i, myself, am a female. But i've always grown up with what my instructor calls 'a command presense' he's always told me, 'when you walk into a room, everyone knows it'. which is quite flattering and very nice of him to say. but i have to say, i usually don't have too much of a problem with people listening to me the first time, and i never have a problem with people listening to me the second time.

I am a very athletic, tough 5'6" female...skinny but muscley. So, i am not as fortunate. I don't quite have that innocent look down yet.

But you are a girl at the end of the day!

We have two types of rules / Kumite methods

1. WKF (World Karate Fed.) rules for tournaments that we enter.

2. Dojo Kumite which is "Jiyu" kumite or free/continuous fighting.

Both are great, but for me now, I am getting into the "Jiyu" stuff.

Its a bit like Randori in Aikido.

I think there are just some people that can teach children well...and some that can not. In addition, not all kids respond well to the same things. Tony Rinaldi, the owner of the school where I currently train, may be the best children's instructor I've ever seen. That's in 23 years of training. But I never understand how.

Here's an example of what I mean: He teaches 3 and 4 year olds as well. In that class, a little kid was kinda making some noise while someone was performing their kata. I think the kid was sitting beside the mat and was slapping it. Anyway, Tony looked over at this little four year old and says, "If you slap that mat again I'm going to cut off your arm and keep it."

Most kids would probably cry about that. The kid just smiled and stopped. He wasn't upset...he just did what Tony said to do. Young children aren't usually able to understand sarcasm. But Tony says things like this all the time. He just understands them. If he wants them to line up properly and two kids are standing too close together, he'll look at the offending party and ask if he's trying to hold her hand. The kid moves away much better than if you told them to move over a little.

Anyhow, people like Tony are very rare. I think many people can work with kids. Very few people have the ability to work with any child that walks through the door.

He's probably a parent.

Most parents know exactly how to press all the right buttons with kids, be that their own or other peoples.

Although I have never threatened a kid with cutting off their arm, we often suggest that naughty behaviour could be punished with a no holds barred fight with one of our adult dan grades. It usually has the same effect to stop the kid from doing what he or she was doing. In reality they know that you can't cut off their arm, or have them beaten half to death by a 6'5" dan grade (cos its against the law (apparently)), but they sort of realise the message you are sending.

One thing that is loved by the kids in our dojo is when they have an opportunity to free spar against the adult seniors. We run the Kids class first after which we do the adult session. If enough adults are there before the end of the kids session we get them lined up against the kids and they have a free fight.

The kids think its great (again cos they are programmed to know that these particular grown ups in the dojo wont hurt them (cos they are not allowed to)), and the adults have a bit of fun too.

It brings a smile to everyone's face, and the kids go home telling their mums and dads that the actually fought a black belt.

evertime i start lifting weights i start get headaches in the back of my head. its usally when i am curling or when i bench alot and sometimes when i do about 60 pushups. i get these weird headaches at the back of my head. Do u have any clues what the problem might be. I am training to strenghten my body not weaken it. i want to get diesel but the headaches are making it hard. any solutions would be greatly appreciated.

A visit to the doctors would be my suggestion.

There could be any number of reasons why you are getting the headaches, but you should really seek professional advise. Don't leave anything to chance.

I'm not sure if it is good. I have yet to look into it enough to really know if it is good or not. It is one of 4 styles I am considering. I already started a forum in the beginners section asking what style I should do. I've just had trouble finding info about wado-ryu and started this forum for that purpose. It is definitely a possibility though.

When you say you are not sure if it is good or not, are you referring to a specific Dojo that you have found in your area or wado in general?

Wado when taught correctly is as "complete" as any martial art could wish to be.

It is my understanding that the "Wa" in wado has a very significant meaning in Japan, more than the "Wikipedia" explanation of simply "harmony". It also refers to peace, Japan, the universe and above all their harmony as one.

The word also reflects the perfect harmony of mind and body in combat situations. Many of wado philosophies are based on those of the Koryu or "old school" traditional battlefield arts of ancient Japan.

The problem is, there are very few instructors out there that have the ability to impart that extra bit of wisdom than can make wado what it really is.

I know, as I have trained in it for nearly 25 years, here in the uk and overseas, with scores of instructors but if I was being honest, could easily count on one hand the ones that i think truly understand what makes it work.

Sounds like I am selling out really, but to be honest, if I was starting out in my MA training with what I know now, I think I would probably start Shotokan.

To quote a famous uk TV advert "It does exactly what it says on the tin"

Wado however takes a fair bit of time and good honest training to even start to uncover some of its depths.

Give it a go though and let us know what its like.

Thanks for all of the good info on wado-ryu. I had trouble finding good information about it. Now I know. Thanks

Hi bigsouthpaw6,

Are you thinking of training in Wado? If so is there a good dojo near you?

This is pretty much the same as Shotokan.

Agreed.

While I have never done any other style, from what I have read and from how my Sensei describes a lot of things I'd say the style is like 80-90% Shotokan and as little as 10-20% other styles such as shito, goju, ju-jitsu etc mixed in with I think a tiny bit of purly "original to the style itself" stuff.

I agree with PS1 also. Stances are in effect part of the overall process of Karate. The practice of kihon and therfore the stances found within, are taken from Kata as a means of fine tuning the techniques.

By practicing kata you are learning the transition between stances and how they can be applied to best effect.

I think most traditional "Karate" based arts will use the rotation of the wrist whilst doing their Kihon (basic) training.

It is my understanding that these are not supposed to represent a way to apply a punch in reality, but more a training aid in order to promote correct body mechanics, timing energy transfer etc behind a punch.

As I have detailed in a previous post, the rotation of the fist not only engenders good timing but also is representative of one of the three primary sources of energy, Kinetic, Potential and Rotational.

Kihon is after all just exercising understand of technique.

how do you pronounce shito ryu?

Shh_tol_you

Thanks for the reply Z. That was an excellent link, just the kind of thing I was hoping for when I started the thread.

It's nice to see such a focus on the mental aspects of defense. Having a series of systemized mental goals that would coincide with the physical training is great, and they are ceratinly well deliniated.

I hadn't realized that Wado had such a stong connection with samurai philosphy.

Well for me, true MA is about "managing" conflict. Avoid it at all costs and know how to manage the situation in whatever level it escalates to.

I think its fair to say that most good systems / dojo of MA cater for the physical, but you have to look harder sometimes for the ones with the teachers that can transmit mental level of understanding.

What I like about Wado is that it has an "Omote" (or surface) level way to learn an MA movement, but through its pracitice you develope / sharpen the mental side of things.

As my little tagline says "saya no uchi de katsu" - Victory in the scabbbard of the sword. (One must obtain victory while the sword is undrawn).

This has several levels of understanding. 1. Avoid conflict 2. Be ready for it but do not provoke 3. Make ready your escape plan, or in other words be prepared to attack before its too late. All of which are "mindsets" rather than techniques.

Hi tallgeese,

Very nice topic. Whilst Wado karate uses many of the principles of Okinawan karate, in the most part they are based on the same "tenets" of engagement utilised by the samurai.

As such there are physical aspects along with mental ones;

Any way, rather than claiming credit for it myself, this is probably the best list of Wado Ryu Principles:

http://www.sannoya.com/principles.htm

Z

thanks for the response. Yes the cultural aspects and tradition found in MA is a factor. Yet I am heavily in it for the self defence. I know goju is solid in both of these and with practicing it 5 days for almost 2 hours a day I will be good. The jui jitsu and Muay Thai will be strictly for self defence but with Muay Thai only two days a week how good would my stand up really be? The question is do I want to be good on the ground and know a little standing up or do I want to get into goju and get into that for being on my feet and the tradition and the way it is practiced. That is a tough question for me answer.

Is it though,

I think you have already formed your answer. You are obviously a young man with a lot to prove, so go do it, and have fun in the process.

TBH you can learn self defence by going on a course, and if you want to train as a cage fighter, there are loads of clubs out there. Fill your boots.

Sublime arts like Goju-ryu take a lifetime to learn, so, in this age of instant want consumerism, it takes a very special type of person to apply them self to it.

I personally would vote for BJJ and MT. They are definalty contact oriented and allow for a dramitic increases in self defense capacity very quickly.

Not baggin on Goju at all. But it really depends on what you want.

Despite being defined as sports by many here on the boards, the combination of BJJ and MT will allow you to function very well on your feet as well as the ground, automatically increasing you total fight package. Do they not allow certain movments that are useful, of course. No one is focusing on eye gouging in either practice. Still, you will spend more time at actual fight speed in both of these arts and the emphsis in conditioning will be heavier (usually). THis will translate to greater survivability and durability on the street.

The ceratainly lack the more cultural and formal aspects of TMA. If you are wanting to study partially for those reasons GOju may be fore you. Yes, I have been exposed to Goju. One of my insutructors was ranked in it as well but I never persued it exclusively.

Well said tallgeese.

Just because something has primarily evolved into sport does not mean for a second that it is not a good MA or for that matter good self defence system.

Perhaps though, systems like Goju have more depth to them. The "Omote" and "Ura" as it were.

Whatever you decide, just try to be the best you can.

This is my first post and Im new to karate but I would like to know some one on heres opinion. I am currently taking tae kwon do but there is mostly kids in the class and its hard to get real serious sometimes. I have been looking at other schools around my area and have been to two different classes. One class is Okinawan Goju Ryu Class. The teacher is very traditional and the work outs are very tough. I love the style and and have read quite a bit on it. The other class is Brazilian Jui Jitsu. I got to join in today and learned some techniques. The upside in this class would be compeating against people more my age and the fact that there are Muay Thai classes combined two days a week. The problem is I would much rather learn techniques standing up 5 days a week like goju but would also like to learn what to do on the ground. They are around the same price range so thats not a factor. I would just like to know peoples opinions on these Martial Arts and what to do. Thanks

One is a sport, and the other is a way. Depends on what your goals are really.

I know which one I would do, but each to their own.

Marmaduke,

In the Kwanmukan, Tekki Shodan is a black belt form. Second, how could it possibly surprise you that a 17 year old boy, with hormones raging, would try to impress a girl? With respect...that's just naive.

Anyway, I think the bigger problem is that you walked out on him. First, you didn't realize the form was a black belt form. So you took it upon yourself to assume he threw the competition rather than asking. What message does that send him? How would you want him to react if the roles were reversed? He's a 17 year old kid who, as much as he probably hates to admit, would love nothing more than to have your admiration and pride. Respectfully, I think you dropped the ball...not him.

Well said ps1.

So, I guess I'm the odd man out failing to see why doing a lower kata is an issue? I've learned Seisan as a white belt and have been using it and winning with it ever since.

I do agree that he never should have been against the girl due to rank difference.

Also, what is the issue with the length of the kata?

I guess it is because in TKD, we have to the form for our rank. Basically, we have to compete with the form of our rank, and within the same rank (or one below or above). I guess it has to do with doing the form for you skill level and rank, as opposed to doing a lower ranked form.

Rules are rules Bushido, but surely if you perform any Kata sublimely no matter, it should still beat a kata that some may consider more "lofty" in the ranks of seniority.

To be honest, I am in two minds as to whether Kata competitions are a good thing in the first place, but thats just my opinion I guess.

I believe it was once said of Kata, that it takes about 3 years to truly master a single form. So really, in a perfect Budo world, these kids (who I guess have been training for 10, 12 years etc.) should only know 4 or so katas.

One could argue that performing kata without understanding is dancing. Girls are better dancers than boys!!

Just my two cents!

I could not believe it! My sons Dojo had a tournament Saturday. My son (Black Belt) was matched up with a Purple belt. He won the coin toss, let the girl go first. She did this long Tia Chi Kata that took several minutes. then my son comes up and does this tiny Yellow belt Kata that must have taken 45 seconds! One of the judges couldn't believe it either. He sat there watching a fly on the wall. didn't know what to say.

I left and sat in the car for the rest of the tournament. When It finally ended, I asked him why he threw the match. All I got was a lot of yelling that he didn't. Other than the fact that he likes this girl, I can't believe he would throw a match for that.

Well, maybe he was trying too be to clever for his own good.

I have seen it before in competitions where competitors deliberately choose a Kata well beneath their grade level in an attempt to suggest to their opponent; "you see, my Karate and understanding of Kata is that good, I can beat anything you do with the most junior Kata possible!"

Only trouble is, you have to be super good to pull that sort of stunt off.

Frustrating!