Shorinryu Sensei

How do we make it through a 2 hour class? Well, if I ytold you, then I'd have to kill you! It's in the differance in the different systems I'd suppose. I'm not teaching aerobics and building better bodies, nor are we teaching kicks higher than the lower abdomen, and there are few spinning or jumping kicks...which take more energy. Shorinryu has all low line kicks (old style Orthodox system anyway) and movements that are slight and small, as compared to larger movements of the body. Thus, we use less energy, and don't get worn out as easily. I've sparred every student in my class, one right after the other (anywhere from 10-15 students) and yes, I was sweating and tired at the end, but we can do that because we don't waste movement and energy if we don't have to. It's easier to demonstrate than explain..but it's the way that we do things.

Just one minor point, but didn't Bruce Lee train for quite a while with Yip Man and several others before launching on his own and creating JKD?

Looking at that link, the conclusion I think is the most important part. "CONCLUSION Students can learn techniques as efficiently from well-made martial arts instructional tapes as they can from an instructor. Both training methods, however, require them to practice what they have learned to become proficient. The social rewards that accompany membership in a dojo tend to encourage students to train regularly and practice what they have learned—even when their progress is slow. Training at home in front of a television does not offer that type of environment. Students who require the presence of others to stay motivated will be unlikely to make as much progress with videotapes as they would with a live instructor." I think the highlighted parts are significant, in that most studying off the videotape, once they have got it down, won't practice it much again..whereas in a dojo, the sensei will require them to practice the technique in class...over...and over again. That's his job, as it teaches you to use it without thinking, not jsut the few times so that you can do it. The martial arts are all about reactions to a stimulus. (Can we say Pavlov's dog here?) The goal of the arts is to react to an attack, without thinking (there's a Japanese phrase for this, but I don't remember it.) and effectively apply techniques to subdue and defeat your opponent. I doubt if you'll get this sort of reaction from training with video tapes.

I know a lot of people are down on "point sparring", but I think it has it's place in the dojo as a training aid, along with medium and full contact (almost anything goes) sparring. Here's my rational: Point/light contact sparring: This type of sparring teaches you speed, timing and accuracy. You learn to look for openings in your opponents defense, consider what technique would be employed to attack that opening fast, effectively and accurately. Ther only way you can score a pouint in this type of sparring is with a full power, controlled technique that is "pulled" short of contact, or only with light contact to the head, medium to the body. The only protection we use is a required groin cup (yes, the groin is always a target) for men, and hand pads if you chose, but not required. Sure, it's basically a game of tag, but you learn speed and accuracy with this type of sparring. Medium Contact sparring: With this type of sparring, medium contact is allowed to all areas of the body, plus take downs. Again, speed and accuracy are emphasised, but more contact is allowed between the participants. Foam/leather gloves are worn on hands, but we've never gotten into foot or head gear. In this system, we do not (cardinal rule) head kick EVER. Good way to get neutered. Full Contact Sparring: We use Okinawan bogu gear which resembles a kendo mask (different kind of grill in the front), chest pad and gloves. Full contact to the head/torso is allowed and you have to "rock" your opponent to be considered a good, solid technique. If any of you have ever worn this type of gear, you know that a good, solid hit to the head will still make you see a few stars. The advantage of this type of sparring is that you still need speed and accuracy, but you're getting the feeling of actually hitting somebody for real, plus you have to learn to not get hit yourself! As I said, I believe all 3 types of sparing in the dojo are needed, as they teach different things to the students. Using only light point sparring isn't good, but neither is exclusively full contact. I feel a mixture of all 3 types is necessary for a well rounded martial artist.

Good question, but you need to realize that the TMA's out there are based on actual real combat techniques that worked for the origionators of the systems. If certain techniques didn't work, the masters were killed and the system died, so we can make the assumption (right or wrong I guess) that if the techniques that we (TMA people like myself) are diligently trying to master actually do work in a real confrontation. They have for me so far in the real fights I've been involved in since starting training. Assuming the author of this thread has no prior MA experience, other than movies, books and the Ninja Turtles cartoon on Saturday mornings, trying to teach yourself a MA is fine, but being able to actually EXECUTE the techniques effectively is something else. There are many martail arts systems that I have never seen, yet I could probably watch them do a technique a few times and mimic it myself. Does that mean I know the technique and what it would be used for? Well, with my experience, possibly, but someone with no MA backgroud? Doubtful.

First of all martialartsresearcher, your words are making very little sense to me. if I understand it correctly, you are saying that you are teaching yourself a martial art, but feel a school would be better..right? There aare a vast number of books and videos you can purchase that supposedly will teach you a martial art without having to go to a school, but uin my opinion, all you'll learn is some basic movements without really understanding what you are doing. It would be ike watching Top Gun 20 times, and then putting you in a jet fighter and saying.."Go ahead and fly!" Not happening bud.

All I can speak for is what the law regarding self-defense states in my state. 45-3-102. Use of force in defense of person. A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or another against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, he is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or serious bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony. I believe most states are similar to this.

Well, IMHO, that's a plus on Sensei Moneymaker's record right there, and he takes a step or two upwards in my estimation....and I don't even know the reason why they split! lol No doubt that is where he got his copy of OSensei's notes, was from Dillman. Well, I'm 50 also (51 next month ) and have been doing this one art for 29 years this coming January, and I still have lots and lots to learn about this one system, let alone 7-8 other systems. I still can't imagine anybody being able to comprehend, let along be master level in more than one art. Similar arts withstanding, they all have their unique ways of doing things, not just minor kata differances. Even within the various branches of Shorinryu..or TKD if you'd rather, there are some rather profound differances in philosophy, execution of technique, stances, kata, theory, histoy..etc. Yes, they are similar, but different enough to be classified as unique and seperate arts. Yes, I imagine they all have the same kata in name, but from the books I have read, videos I have seen, and a few sensei that I have had the opportunity to watch and train with from other Shorinryu systems..the katas are close in many ways, but they do have some rather radical differances. Another thing that comes to mind is how do you keep these various arts, with similar kata, seperate in your mind when you are doing them? How can you do, for example, Pinan Shodan from the Orthodox Shoinryu, then change to the Matsubiashi (sp?) version, then the goju version, then the TKD version, etc? I don't know. Logically, it just seems impossible to me. Maybe, if all I had to do during the day for the past 30+ years or so, is practice different martial arts..I maybe could do it. But little things like feeding my family, keeping a roof over our heads..stuff like that, always seems to interfer.

Fight for your beliefs? So, if somebody disagrees with you about anything, start swinging? I don't think so, but that's what it looks like you're saying! That's just plain nuts if you ask me. And you're going to beat up every jerk you meet? Man, you'd better be in pretty darn good shape, because you're going to be fighting literally every time yolu step out of the house. I hope you don't live in New York City, where rudeness is the norm. You're either one tough 'mutha if that's what you do now, and have a really good lawyer to get you out of trouble.

No, I didn't miss that. I believe there are no secrets to the arts, just things you haven't learned yet. But correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Moneymaker a student of George Dillman's, and this is where he gets the "secret" notes from? If so Dillman has been claiming for years that he got these "secret" techniques from OSensei Soken..correct? To my knowledge, every student and follower of Soken's has cried PHOOEY to this claim. I'll assume that wasn't directed at me, as I made no mention of that...and my last name isn't that great either! I'm assuming you're talking about my comments about sensei Kuda here? It's not a matter of dropping names, but rather to let you know where my information comes from, and the background of it. As for Tetsuhiro Hokama, I've never heard of the man, but I don't follow other systems and who's who in the martial arts. I have plenty to keep me occupied just within my own system. I never said this either. Can you deny that the United States is full of self-promoted "Masters" of various arts? I doubt it. And I'm sure if I emailed Sensei Moneymaker, he'd be glad to copy and paste his credentials off his website for my verification. I will still stand by what I said, that I don't believe it is physically possible for ANY person to reach a 9-10th Dan level in more than one system (most never see even close to that in ONE system), let alone all that Sensei Moneymaker's claims. I see no resolution or benefit of continuing this discussion, as I won't convince you, nor you me. I have nothing but respect for people that have worked hard in their systems and deserve the rank that they have. I do not respect people that make claims which to me, are impossible to achieve. Just out of curiosity, how old is Sensei Moneymaker?

Geeze,,,I really need to slow down when I type and correct those typos! Sorry people! Absolutly! Obviously, you HAVE met some Montanans! lol Although I'm not the type that goes around po'ing people on a regular basis. I must be an exception to the "Montana Rule"? House of horrors??? Well, we can ride my Yamaha to a Harley bar and park it out front. Just don't go in!!! The only suggestion I would have is to take up boxing. A sport where you probably get tagged nightly, and often. That's my problem..there's nobody in class bigger, or meaner than me! Yep..I knew that. Montana statue says... 45-3-102. Use of force in defense of person. A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or another against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, he is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or serious bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony. Naw, that takes to long. I just carry a bunch of my lawyers business cards in my shirt pocket and in an attack situation , I assume a mean looking stance, snap one of those cards out at lightning speed (practice the move nightly) and tell them.."This is my lawyer, and I'm prepared to SUE!"

To be honest with you, I don't know of any way to control an adrenaline rush, other than to start doing a few hundred jumping jacks (always intimidating to do in front of an opponent before you fight him ) or a hundred pushups. The dumping of adrenaline into the system is natures way of "pumping you up" for a stressful situation. I think time, experience and confidence in your abilities will help, because you won't get so "shaken" in a stressful situation and your mind will react differently than it does now. Fighting, especially if you're training in a TMA, isn't really a desirable quality in todays society, and you've stressed several times that "fighting is my life". Maybe you need to consider going into more of a full contact system, like boxing, instead of the martial arts. Get that fighting urge out of your system, especially the first time you get dropped by a guy with a lot more experience, or a newbie with a lucky shot.

Oh...so YOU'RE the one that's taking that system~! I knew sooner or later I'd find you! I'm wondering if there would be any simularities between what you do, and what I do, as Shorinryu has strong connections to China, and I believe Shaolin Kempo from about 300 years ago.

You say that like it's a bad thing? On Okinawa, at least in the dojo's under the system that I do, the sensei will try very hard to teach you karate. If they correct your mistakes, they expect you to make that correction, and from that point on, do it correctly. Sounds reasonable to me. If, however, sensei makes corrections in their technique, and the student still continues to make the same mistakes, eventually, they will start to ignor you. Yes, you can still come to class, but forget learning anything really "good", and forget about promotions. In my class, as in my sensei's..I will work hard to get each and every student of mine to improve themselves at every class. But if it becomes obvious that they think they know how to do things (such as constant incorrect application of technique in kata) class after class, I will eventually lay down "the law" to them, explain what I am seeing, and suggest they either correct the flaws I am seeing, or leave. Some leave, some make the corrections and work out fine. I feel I have something to pass on to others. If they want it..here it is. If not, go away and join the masses and do what everybody else is doing, and quit wasting my time. There is a TKD classes locally with over 100 students I guess, and a whole bunch of others that actively seek students on a commercial basis. I teach a small class in my converted single car garage, never advertise, seldom do demonstrations unless approached, and have no trouble filling vacancies. Yes, I'm a little conceited about what I do, but having spent quite a bit of time visiting other dojo's teaching other systems over the years, looking at the quality of student they are producing..I ALWAYS go back to my dojo and look at my students and smile with satisfaction that I must be doing something right, because they look GREAT to me...and I let them know it.

I'm trying to think what you can accomplish in 45-60 minutes in class. It just doesn't seem enough to me to get a whole lot done. This is how I break down my class--all times are approximate and length of each segment isn't written in stone. 7:00 - 7:20: Bow in, announcements, warmup exercises and basics practice(blocks/kicks/etc). 7:20 - 8:15: Self-defense techniques. 8:15 - 8:20: Short break to grab a drink of water or bathroom if they need to. 8:20 - 8:45: Light (no gear)/medium(hand pads)/full contact sparring (Okinawan bogo full contact gear) 8:45 - 9:00 (often go over): Kata practice. 9:00 -- Bow out. When I first started classes with my sensei, we had 3 hours of training, 3 days/week (Mon-Tue-Thur), and an occasional Saturday practice for 3-4 hours. They were very intense and students either got it, or dropped out. He was a great and patient sensei and expected people to motivate themselves (as I do) and to work hard. Slackers were asked to leave after having plenty of time (usually at least 2 months) to prove themselves that they were there to work and learn. I would love to do 3 hour classes myself, but most of my students prefer a 2 hour because of the time factor. 10:00 is to late for most of them, and I can't start the class any earlier than 7:00 because of their schedules. *sigh* My sensei didn';t care about losing the money from these students, buyt rather wanted people that were there to learn. I'm basically the same way, but the money does come in handy! lol

Well, just to give you my perspective on this comment. When I get a new student in class, and it is reinforced often during class..my #1 rule I have in my dojo is: If I ever hear of you (one of my students) starting a fight, either physically or verbally, you are out..PERMANENTLY! No "I'm sorry and it won't happen again(s)" accepted. This is a rule I am strict, and inflexable on. Do you know why? The majority of the non-martial art public thinks we are a bunch of tough guys, just looking for an excuse to get into a fight and to use our "deadly" skills. Anytime a person uses martial arts in a fight, whether he starts it or not, the word spreads fast that "This karate guy beat the snot out of this poor other guy", whether that poor other guy started it , or deserved it..or not. This reflects on every person doing any type of martial art in your area, and I am VERY reputation conscious and strive to make the public aware that we are not a bunch of thugs that they have to be afraid of. I also stress in my class that one of your best self-defense techniques is simple..walking away! Do a few words hurt you? If the guy calls you a "cocks***er"..other than get you po'd, does it actually hurt you? If some jerk hits on your girlfriend, is that worth getting in a fight? Does she encourage him, or does she tell him she's got a boyfriend? If she doesn't, then you have a relationship problem, and believe me, she's not worth fighting over. Learn to get a tougher skin. Learn that you best defense is to walk away. I'm 6'6" tall, 240lbs and have nearly 29 years in this art. I will walk away every time. If the guy (and yes, this has happened) calls me a chicken (or worse)..he's welcome to think what he wants. The way I look at it is this..I just saved him a dental and doctor bill! Anyway, that's my opinion on it. Take it or leave it.

Whoa...sorry, but I have to disagree with delta1 on this. Purposely getting into fights to learn to control adrenaline rush? There should be no way that a martial artist should intentionaly get into ANY fight, in my opinion. OK, sure..competition is another thing, but I'm talking about real street fights. Also where you ahve people in yoyur dojo call yo unames, toss stujff at you, hit on yoru girlfriend??? You actually think that's going to get you mad, when you'll know exactly what they are doing? I can see it making you laugh like hell, but get you mad? No, I can't see that happening. I do agree that frequent sparring, especially controlled full contact, will help a lot to get you to learn control. Getting smacked a few times and getting angry certainly will work. "Cato drills"? Again, when you're expecting it in class, there will be no adrenaline rush associated with it, because you are expecting it. It's no surprise when you walk in the door of the dojo and expect to be attacked at any time, and you know it. What causes the "rush" is the fact that it's NOT expected..sudden and potentially explosive.

Two hours, 2 times/week. The class officially ends after the two hours and we bow out and most leave, but sometimes a few stay around for up to another hour and work on kata or specific techniques that they have questions on. Possibly just a * session also pertaining to just about anything.

I bruised a few of my ribs when the scaffolding I was standing on (2nd story height) collapsed and fell sideways like a falling tree. I had my arm in a sling (great chick magnet BTW) for a week, and yes, it hurt to move and take deep breaths. And like Tombstoen says, you'd know it if they were broken. You'd feel them move, and it wouldn't just be pain..it would be PAIN!

I doubt if you have anything broken..those ribs are pretty tough. More likely they just got bruised a bit...and welcome to the wonderful world of sparring! Bumps and bruises are a part of training. Your sensei should have told you that the day you joined. It teaches you taht you need to learn to block, but also teaches you to accept the contact and keep on going. Why? Because on the street, an attacker isn't going to say.."Oh, did I hurt you? sorry, I'll stop now." You just have to suck it in, dig down deep and keep going. And no, I'm not calling you a cry baby, just explaining that bumps and bruises are going to happen.

OOPS..I think I need to clarify a bit here. I'm not looking where you just held a class, but rather where you had an actual dojo for a period of time. Talking long term here..semi-permanent place perhaps, not jsut a class or two.

I've had this discussion before with people, and without being there to demonstrate, it's not easy to describe. Visualize yourself (go stand in a corner) in a corner..what directions can an opponent attack you from? Basically, a 90 degree angle...right? As compared to the middle of the floor where multiple opponents can attack you from 360 degrees, Right? So, you've cut down opponents angles of attack by 270 degrees. Sounds good to me so far. OK, now you're thinking.."What if the guy does a flying kick at me while I'm in the corner?" Easy..just like you would inb the middle of the floor (or hopefully you would anyway)..and that is MOVE MOVE MOVE!!! Get out of that corner by sliding along one wall or the other a bit (a foot or two is all that's needed), but not to far, because the corner can be the best friend you've got in a multiple fighter situation. OK, you said the guy comes in and tosses multiple punches, one right after the other. Simple. Lean back in the corner a bit for support..and use your legs! Now, assuming of course you have legs, they are no doubt longer than the average persons arms..right? And stronger, and you are solid while leaning against the wall, whereas your opponent isn't...kick the crap out of them when they come in. What I do, and teach my students to do is this. Lean slightly against the wall, stand on one leg with the other cocked at the knee (chambered and ready to kick) and have both hands up. You can use your shins to block kicks, along with your hands/arms, or also attack with all three of them. Sure, it takes some practice, but my sensei taught it to me, and I've taught it to my students..and I use it quite a bit. To the point that if I'm sparring with my students and I go to the corner, they just back off and don't come at me because they know they're going to get bailed coming in.

This is our opinion on tournaments. Tournaments aren't mandatory, or even encouraged..but not discouraged either. I teach my students that they should be considered as "play tuime"..nothing more. Also, that tournaments are not a good indication of how you would do in a real fight, so if they win a trophy, don't start thinking you're tough and can kick butt. It just means you were lucky and can play "tag" better than anybody you fought that day. Less than 1/4 of my students attend an occasional open tournament now and then, and the ones that they do, they do quite well at, which uis surprising for me, as we don't train for them at all. I see no problem is tournament participation in regard to "using your skiklls except for selfdefense", as sparring is just another form of training, and tournaments give you the chance to spar against other people from other systems that may do things differently. Variety is a good thing!

Since our system isn't as widespread and commonplace as say, Taekwondo, all testing is pretty much up to the instructor of each dojo, and verified through the association. I was fortunate on my shodan, as I was tested, without knowing I was being tested! lol In June of 1978, the head of our system, Sensei Yuichi Kuda came to visit us from Okinawa for 3 weeks of very intense training. It was Sensei's 1st trip the the USA. During the 3rd week of training with him, all of us students (my sensei included) were lined up kneeling against one wall while Sensei Kuda asked us one at a time (by rank, my sensei first) to get up and perform a certain technique and specific kata. Of course I was very nervous to get up in front of the head of the system by myself, but he was a very gentle, compassionate and friendly guy, so I just did my best in whatever he asked. When I finished and went back to kneeling against the wall, my sensei leaned over and offered his hand..shook it and said "Good job...shodan!" I said "What???" That's when he told me I was just promoted to my shodan. I have tested several people for black belts. If I am the only black belt in attendance, then I test alone. If there are others, then I will also have them watch the test and give me their opinions on how the testing student faired.

I sent that URL on the Dragon Society to my sensei, who is a 6th Dan in OSensei Sokens system and is/was a senior student of Sensei Yuichi Kuda's (deceased) and asked him to check out the "Secret Notes" of OSensei Soken's that are on that page and give me his opinion on the authenticity of it. He replied last night-----"Hi Paul, I`ve seen them before, they`re fake. I asked master Kuda about it years ago. He said bulls**t. Larry" Since I knew Sensei Kuda as a man of honor and integrity, and VERY well respected in the martial arts community on Okinawa, and recognised as an authority on OSensei Soken's Matsumura Seito Karate--that's good enough for me. Sensei Kuda was never in the art for money. What little he made financially from teaching the art to others was used to support his family, and he lived a simple life. he did not travel extensively and teach weekly seminars to massive amounts of students in this country (USA) or others. Yes, he came to the US a number of times to work with us, but basically his expenses were paind and he pocketed very little profit. Not because we are cheap, but rather because he didn't want to make any profits from his teachings. That is the HUGE differance between Sensei Kuda and the majority of "Masters". He taught and spread "the word" because he loved the art and wanted to share it with others, not to line his pockets.