Shorinryu Sensei

The kata highlighted in bold print are the ones that I currently know. I'm WAY behind on what I should know, but getting with someone to train with has always been an issue. NeiSeDi 1-5 Pinans 1-5 Nahanchi 1-3 Passai Sho and Dai Wansu Ananku Seisan Gojushiho Chinto Kusanku Matsumura Rohai Sho, Dai

Well crude! I guess it's time to get some new glasses! ~O-O~

Thanks. It was hard to see on the screen, so I printed it out...much better! Very similar kata, but still, not quite the same either. Stances are wider and turned differently in some places, kicks are quite a bit higher than we do them, and the end of the kata is different. If you'd like to print it out and follow along with the numbers, I'll just make a few comparisons. 1. We are in a passai stance, meaning feet are both out at 45 degrees from the body. Right hand is the same, left hand for us is straight out level with the shoulder, pointing out instead of up....palm facing up. That strike shoots straight out, not a circular movement. 2. Same as above. 3. We do a double fist, chest high..not a low x-block. 4. Appears the same as we do it. 5. This would be feet together, head turned to left, hands the same. 6. It doesn't really show what your left hand does in the picture, but we circle it in front of the head and smash downwards like a hammer fist. The kick is a front snap kick, not a side kick. 7. is the same. 8-10 is same as above. We don't do the low block that is shown between 10 and 11, but rather go from 10 to 11 directly with a foot sweeping motion. 11. Similar, but more of a straight front stance than what is shown, and the right hand technique goes straight out like a punch, not circling outwards first. 12-13. is the same, but out kicks are lower. it doesn't show it on the page, but after the kick touches lightly to the floor, we do a little hop step forward to close on the opponent. 14. this is where it gets tough to descibe. From position #13, feet don't move but rahter pivot where they are to face the same directuion as 14 is shown. Then we do a right front snap kick and a left outside block at the same time (this is the big differance) and then put the foot BACK (left foot forward) down where it was instead of stepping forward as the diagram shows. When foot is down, we do a double punch. 18. No stepping from last stance, but rather pivot to the right and left front snap kick and right outside block as you do. Bring snaop kick BACK behind you instead of forward..then double punch. 21. Step same (but we bend out knees more) and do a low block, then an elbow smash, then a double open handed block with a front snap kick. when the kick lands on the floor we pivot and reverse direction and do a left handblcok. 22. Step back and do right hand block. Step back and finish/bow. Like I said...very similar, but different.

I do the origional Okinawan version of the Heihan...or we call them Pinan's, and Pinan Yondan has always been one of my favorites. I really can't explain why, but it's just the movements of the kata I guess. I really get into it. How similar it is to the Shotokan version, I don't know, but the way that we do it is not very similar to the other Pinan's in it's stepping, nor in it's techniques. I wish I could compare the two, but like I said, I don't know the Shotokan version. Do you have a webpage that might possibly show the Shotokan version?

I've been a judge/referree of open tournaments since 1980 or so, so I'd like to add my comments to this. Deep Stances -- Not necessarily. Not all systems (shorinryu for example) use deep stances. A good, solid stance, most definitely! I look for straight legs and mark down for it. Woobly stances also are marked down. Eyes At The Target -- yes, if a competitor is klooking one way, and striking another that's sloppy. 1/4 Second Moves -- I don't know what this is. Snap Your Moves -- Agreed. It goes along with power and speed. I've seen so many black belts that lack this in competiton. Look Before Each Side -- Also agree. many judges don't even consider this in a kata. How do you know where to move to if you don't see your opponent? Make Sure You Know Where Each Move Should Hit, And With What Part of The Body (ex: punch- aim w/ 1st knuckle so the punch will roll to the 2nd kunckle, in the end only the 1st 2 knuckles are used in the punch) --- well, unless you specifically know the kata that is being done, you wouldn't know this of every ssytem that is demonstrating in front of you. However, if I see someone punch and their wrist is turned back..that is poor technique and will be marked down. Same goe with kicks or blocks. Feel Your Form -- yes..I like to see a competitor "get into" the kata. Make it come alive for me..make me feel like you are visualiazing you are fighting someone. "You may think judges look for alot more...not really." -- Quite the contrary actually. Judges, if they have a clue as to what they are doing, look for overall fluidity and smoothness of the kata. Overall strength, confidence, timing, speed, concentration and intensity. There's probably other things, but that's what comes to mind at the moment. I also hate it when a competitor comes up to me and yells his name and style...sheesh! That does NOT impress me! But there again, I don't want to have to strain to hear over the background noise either. In weapons competition the first thing I look at is .."Does he/she pronounce the name of the weapon correctly?" For example, if a competitor comes up to me and says they are going to do "Numchuk Kata #1", they won't get higher than a 7-8 from me because he doesn't even know the name of the weapon. Also, in bo competition, if they are using a lightweight broom stick bo, they will score low with me. I've seen black belts do this. I've seen sai kata done where the sai doesn't come down bast their elbow...meaning they are using a weapopn that is to short for their arm. Or kama kata where all they do is HACK, HACK AND THEN HACK SOME MORE!!! ARGH!!! I could go on with weapons, but you get the idea.

I've been involved in the arts since 1975, and running my own dojo since 1978. Over the years I like to visit other dojo's that I come across in my travels just to expand my understanding of what other systems are doing out there. I've visited dojo's from California, Washington, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado, Texas, Georgia, Florida, Minnesota, England, and of course, Montana. When I enter the dojo, I will always try to introduce myself to the instructor if he/she is available and ask if it would be OK with them if I watched their class. On only two occasions has this been a problem. The first time was out of town and I passed by a Ed Parkers Kempo school. I met the instructor at the dooir, explained who I was and asked if I could observe his class. He was VERY rude and refused to let me go further than the front door. His workout area was behind the wall of the main entrance, and there was a curtain over the doorway. The other time was locally a few years ago at a new ITF/TKD school. When the young instructor and his wife first opened the school, they publicised an open house, so I took the opportunity to go in and introduce myself and give him my patented "Welcome to the neighborhood" speech. They was very nice and invited me to come watch their class sometime. About a month later, I popped in and the class was already in progress and was being taught by the instructors black belt wife, so I quietly grabbed a seat in the spectators gallery. About 10-15 minutes later she came up to me and asked "Aren't you that shorinryu instructor?" I said "Yes" and reintroduced myself to her. She then told me "I'm sorry, but you'll have to leave." "Why?" I asked. This is an exact quote...she said "I would never be so presumptous as to walk into YOUR class and critique it!" I said "Critique it? Lady, I just came in to watch and see what you guys are doing. Nothing more..plus you INVITED me a month ago..remember?" At that, she told me again I had to leave, spun on her heel and went back to class. I have not set foot in the place since, nor would wild horses drag me in. Anyway, I've found the vast majority of sensei are happy to have someone come in and observe classes, and those that don't are in a minority. I was wondering if others had the same exoperiences.

I knew a guy years ago that used to love to walk into schools when he heard about instructors like yours and just HOPE they would try a stunt liek that. He laid out several instructors that I know of. He was a mean SOB.

I don't think there's any way to determien who is the best fighter in the world, because there are so many variables. Sure, you can say who is the best boxer in a certain weight division, on a particular day..or Pride fighter, or K1, etc. but that's for that event, that particular day. But would they be considered to be the best fighter overall? No, I think not. I think that yes, there probably is one person on the planet that in a no rules fight might be considered the best fighter in the world, but I suspect he is somebody that nobody has ever heard of outside of his own laittle circle. Just for example, take a legitimate Okinawan karate Grand Master. They train a lifetime for self defense where no rules are in place. If any of you have ever had the opportunity to work one-on-one with any of these people, you probably walked away from the experience very humbled and awed by the way that they can move and the flow of their techniques. The one in particular that I had the opportunity to work with twice was arouind 50 when I first met him, and in his 60's the 2nd time. There was little doubt in my mind that this man, who stood about 5'5" tall and was far from an imposing figure, could bounce me at 6'6" tall and 240lbs, around with little effort. His awareness of his surroundings was borderline scary for me, as he knew where everybody was, and what was happening around him at all times...while seemingly relaxed an enjoying himself. Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth. General Choi? Ahhh...the inocence of youth!

Where you have people, you have politics. It's just human nature. Years ago, I quit the only organization that governed the system that I study because of politics, and I was on my own and without an organization to work with for quite a few years. This is the main reason I haven't had a promotions since 1990..and that's OK with me. I just joined a new association last year (http://www.geocities.com/rohai.geo/page.html) and am quite pleased with it so far. Their whole premise is just two things. 1. To follow the teachings of the late OSensei Yuichi Kuda. 2. To be NON-POLITICAL! #2 is the toughest part of course, and time will tell as to how well it works. So far, I see great things for this group, small as it is.

Why not? Are they any better, or worse than anybody else? The martial arts is not a religion, but it can be studied religously.

I've charged as little as FREE (I don't recommend that though), and I'm currently charging $40/month for 2 classes (2 hours)/week. I have (depends on the week) an average of 10-12 students at any given point. I think what you charge depends on your situation and experience. The more expenses and experience, the more you should charge. If you have high overhead with rent, utilities, etc..then you need to charge more. If you are a new instructor with low overhead, I'd charge less for a few years and raise it a bit later on. Personally, I teach out of a converted single car garage attached to the back of my home, use limited equiptment (heavy bag, foam shield and some foam gloves, a set of bogu gear and a canvas makiwara on the wall) so I don't have a lot of overhead, but I've been teaching since 1978, so have a bit of experience at this.

I appreciate that, and honestly, it wasn't meant as a dig against TKD. I try to respect the differances between all the different arts, but I make no apologies if there's something about particular arts that I don't care for, or aspects of those arts anyway. True, I don't care for TKD very much because of the way that I view the martial arts. I'm an old traditionalist that feels the martial arts are for protecting yourself, or your loved ones..or a total stranger if you want to...on the street. I do feel that competition (aka tournaments) are fine, and I've enjoyed judging and referring open ones since 1980, but I view tournaments are for "play" only and put no emphasis on them or preparation for them in my classes. Granted, I have not seen ALL TKD classes in the world, so my opinions are based on those that I have seen within Montana mostly, and a few here and there in my travels..and in my opinion, the major issue I have with TKD starts on day one of training. Their basics and fundamentals techniques are very poor and unrealistic. I'd better stop there with TKD, but I have issues with San Soo and Parker's Kenpo also. Is shorinryu perfect? No..of course not. But I feel that it is much more realistic from a "martial arts" standpoint than many systems I see out there being taught today. I have a wonderful story about an ex-student of mine that went to from my class to TKD, and what he told me one day. If anybody would care to hear it, PM me and I'll share it with you. Mods...I'm sorry if I'm getting my thread way off topic here.

ITF...WTF...WWF...AFL/CIO...sorry. You're talking to a guy that can't keep the days of the week straight sometimes!

As far as I know, the jo (usually 4' long) is just a shorter version of the bo (6' normally) and the techniques used with it are about the same. I could be wrong. Both the Japanese and Okinawans use it...and I';m sure others. Don't some of the Chinese ssytems use a rattan long staff..like 9-10' long that is flexible? I've seen a couple at tournaments and in the movies (gotta be real then, right? ). I won't allow my students to use those really lightweight bo's in class, or in competition.

Not normally..no, but baseball bats, bar stools, pool ques, etc are basically identical in the way that you defend against them.

I agree that he needs to learn the bo art correctly, not just fancy junk..but I disagree with the "for competition" comment. I judge weapons at open tournaments, and have since 1980. When a competitor approaches the judges to announce what he/she is going to do with a bo, the first thing I do is ask to see his/her bo. If it is a light weight, broom stick bo, the most the person will get out of me is an 8 out of a possible 10 points, because the weapon he/she is using isn't a realistic bo, but rather an imitation bo that will be easier to manipulate because of it's light weight. Secondly, fancy, flashy and ineffective techniques will be marked lower, as they aren't legitimate and effective. I'm a traditionalist and expect to see good, solid and realistic technique. Bad technique gets bad scores IMHO. I could tell you some really good storys about blackbelts with lousy weapons technique at tournaments. Chinese staff usage is different, and I recognise this. They have a long staff (about 10" long I think) and it is different than an Okinawan/Japanese bo. Because of that, I use different criteria.

My 2 cents worth here as a judge and referree at open tournaments since 1980. First of all..you need to recognise that judges are human. WHAT?? Yes..they're human, and they make mistakes and have their own ways of looking at things. Secondly, you need to change your attitude about tournaments. You need to realize that they are flawed and it's not a perfect world out there. Try approaching a tournament with the attitude that you are going to do the best that you can do, whether it be kata, sparring, or whatever. Don't go in with a "I want to win" attitude. Sure, you enter and HOPE to win..that's fine. But look at it differently, and change that "I want to win" instead to "I'm going to give my best." I can't speak for the particular tournament where you feel you were screwed, as I wasn't there. I've seen some really terrible judges that don't have a clue as to what they are watching, and score people quite high for non-martial arts techniques (like backflips and splits), and score others low for doing a traditional, non-flashy technique. But I would say that the majority of the judges, the majority of the time..do a pretty good job. At the open tournaments I judge/referree at, we have a judges meeting an hour before the tournament starts. We go over the rules we will abide by, and the criteria we will follow when judging kata. The tournament promotor has all control over this usually, and it is his/her responsability to make sure these rules and guidelines are followed. Although, I've seen a number of judges that just wander off and do their own thing, and I've never hesitated to report them IMMEDIATELY to the promotor. My students don't do a lot of tournaments, as we consider them nothing more than "playtime". We look at them as a social experience, not an indication of skill. I'd suggest to everybody to do the same. Don't take them to seriously. Realize that they aren't perfect, and the best person doesn't always win. I've only competed in one tournament myself. I repeatedly scored ponts on my opponents using what we call "change of body" techniques, and my opponents knew it because they would stop fighting and back up after each "score". Yet all of the 5 judges just stood there and said "keep fighting", because they didn't see it. Yes, it was frustrating, especially when my opponent knew very well that I had him..but the judges didn't catch it. Oh well...I won anyway, just had to change my tactics.

Very good points made by all..but something else just sprung into my egg nog laden brain this morning. If we have ITF TKD, or any other "sport" form of martial arts, where the obvious emphasis is on sport, not self-defense....do you think that it's still accurate to consider it a martial art? And if so..then why don't we refer to wrestling, boxing, track and field, horse racing, archery..or any other activity that origionally came from "warring arts" activites..also as martial arts? Are we, as martial artists (regardless of style), downgrading the "warring arts" as less than what they are by turning them into sports? Judo would be another good example because the judo taught no days is almost all sport judo, but I think there is still a lot of self-defense left in it. Maybe I'd better hit the store and get some more nog....I got up to early this morning! lol

I saw this most often after the last Olympics where they televised the TKD competition. I had many friends and co-workers that wtched it and said that it looked really stupid to have people standing toe to toe and trying to kick each other in the head. Why not use their hands? So I'd have to try to explain it to them as best I could..which I'll admit, wasn't that good because I didn't understand it either. Plus, many times I've had people ask me about karate classes, and then say that they saw it on the Olympics, and weren't impressed. I'd try to explain that what they say, and what I do...are totally different and not in the same universe. I just feel that the Olympic TKD, because so many people watch it, gives the general public a bad misconception of what the arts are really about. The majority of martial arts in the world are NOT played like a game, but rather taken as serious practice for the purpose of self-defense, not sport. But do people see this on a nationally televised basis? No. The same goes for the movies...the majority of what you see is so much * and wouldn't work for real, and most of the public can recognize the fact that a man just isn't capable of jumping along the tree tops, fighting 30 guys at a time and winning, or doing 5 backflips and landing 20 yards away.

Well, I've seen this in tournaments by some blackbelts in the weapons competition, and it had me laughing so hard it pretty much disabled me for the moment. Take one end and grip it tightly and start swinging it around and around your head like a helicopter! Sure scared the heck out of me to think they called this good technique! lol As to a website, I don't know..have you searched google yet?

Yes, I think that kobudo (weapons) training helps enhance your karate (empty handed) training quite a bit. Try doing about 2 hours straight with a bo or pair of sai's. You'll feel it from your fingers to your toes if you're working it hard and heavy. I use a heavy, hardwood bo, not one of those lightweight broomstick kind. My sai's were also made in Okinawa and are real steel, as opposed to cheap pot metal that you can by from most catalogs. They are nearly unbreakable, whereas I've broken a number of the catalog kind. Oops..got sidetracked...sorry. Basically, most weapons training will strengthen your techniques and body in some way or the other, plus also give you betyter balance and body control from the swinging of the weapon. Drunkenmonkey..I disagree on the "obsolete" weapons theory of yours. Once you learn the basics of most traditional weapons such as the bo, sai, tonfa, kama and nunchaku, you can pick up just about anything and use it as a weapon because you have learned the basic mechanics of weapons use. In my class, we frequently have students bring things to class and we see how they can be used as weapons. We try to find both offensive and defensive applications for those objects, such as ashtrays, lighters, books, pieces of paper, cell phones, telephone handsets, wooden or wire clothes hangers, fork/spoons, objects from a usual car trunk, radiator cap, picture frames, plastic/glass jars (like aspirin comes in), baseball hats, loose change, a small feather, clothing (including socks)...like I said..just about anything.

I'd say it was the 1st option because we discussed it at length one day and he truly felt that he was doing the ultimate in martial arts. I told him to do himself a favor and attend one of the open tournaments..then come back and tell me what he thought. He out and out refused to consider the idea because he said his sensei would be quite mad if he found out. That alone tells me quite a bit. I appreciate your feedback people. I already knew the Olympic TKD was just a game..and IMHO, a poor one at that because people look at that and think all martial arts (such as karate) are the same. Personally, I think it hurt the publics opinion of the arts in general.

Thanks for the explanation...however...lol. battousai16 said "allowing punches to the head would take a lot of the sport out of it." It would? Why??? Way back when, didn't the Koreans have use of their hands? "quite frankly, it's not a very fun game if it's just the guy with the fastest lead hand." And the guy with the fastest lead FOOT makes it funner? I don't understand that. The idea behind competition is to win. It is essentially, mock combat..correct? And in combat, mock or real, are TKD people really thinking that they wouldn't use their hands at all? "head kicks are a little more challenging, and can be very pretty, and take longer to execute," Granted..challenging, yes. Take longer to execute..yes also. Pretty? Is pretty a judging criteria now in TKD tournaments? What's next, formal wear sparring? *scratching my head here* Pretty to me is a perfectly executed and clean technique delivered on an opponent with speed, power, accuracy and control. Now that's PRETTY! One of the prettiest things I've personally doen at a tournament was up agaisnt a 4th Dan TKD practicioner that I had never seen fight before. I got in a low stance (not normal for my system) and BEGGED him to kick my head. he did, I fell to the floor and side kicked him in the groing and there was a slight "pop" sound of my foot hitting his cup. Now, THAT was pretty! And yes, at our OPEN tournaments, groin kicks are legal, as long as they are controlled and light contact. I've tried to get the local ITF TKD people to attend one of our tournaments. Know why they don't? This is a direct quote from one of their senior BB's..."We don't attend open tournaments because we would DOMINATE them so much that they wouldn't invite us back again." Yeah, no kidding..the guy told me that with a straight face even! I advised him to give it a try sometime, then come back and tell ne the same thing. Thusfar, they haven't. No, I'm not TKD bashing, but these people are telling the public that theyt are the ULTIMATE martial art..it is street/combat effective, and even worse, their art is over 4,000 years old! ARGH! OK, done venting...sorry. CloudDragon said.."Parents don't want their little darlings running around with black eyes and mashed noses from TKD class." Wait a second...you're saying that head kicks are EASIER to control than a punch to the head? Sorry CD, but I'm going to scream * on that one. Any kicks easily have twice the power and damage potential than any hand technique. I speak with 29 years (next month) of martial arts experience. Literally any hand technique is easier to control than any kicking technique. Speaking of kids, I would much rather have kids punching to heads than kicking to them, as noses and teeth are easily broken a misplace or uncontrolled technique. "Another reason is that TKD is known for its kicks, if tournament players can rack up points one at a time with a "sure" technique as compared to a "risky" technique, they will take the sure thing everytime." Are you saying here that a head kick is a "sure" point, whereas a punch isn't? Again, I'll disagree with that one. maybe by ITF rulls..I really don't know, but in real life..not a chance. Fast as they are, hands are even faster and more accurate, and have a vastly more extensive library of techniques to choose from. Like I said people, I'm not trying to TKD bash here, just trying to figure out the logic of some things I've had questions about for some time.

Hi all! Now I know that this doesn't apply to ALL TKD dojang's, but it does for certain associations...can somebody please explain to me why certain TKD associations (such as Olympic TKD) don't allow head PUNCHES, but do allow head kicks? Ask anybody that has ever been in a real fight and I'd be willing to bet head punches are by far the most common technique thrown, yet certain TKD groups don't allow them...and that makes no sense to me. I'm sure you've heard this before, but watching the TKD on the last Olympics on TV, the first thing that struck me was how unrealistic the fighting was. You have two guys standing toe to toe, able to touch their elbows on the other guys chest they are so close, and trying to kick each othger on the head when there are so many punching possabilities open to them? Another question while I'm here, is that the local ITF dojang, and I've seen this in others (associations unknown), that groin kicks also aren't used, and are considered a "dishonorable" technique. Granted, on the street you may not face a groin kick thrown at you often, but a good street fighter will use that, and any other trick he knows to win a fight, including biting, clawing..whatever works. Why not use it in your dojang so you gain experience defending against it? I'm not talking full force contact to the groin, but rather controlled contact. This is what we use and I have never, in over 25 years of teaching, had a serious accident with it. To save time and email messages in my in-box that somebody replied to this thread, please,,,only those that can explain this to me reply. We don't need to use up bandwidth with "we don't do that in MY dojang"..OK.

Pardon the intrusion...non-TKD guy raising his hand here!!! Anyway, I';ve been doing this stuff for 29 years (next month), and my all time favorite sparring, or streeet technique is a front foot roundhouse kick to the groing or knee, and while that leg is in the air I sort of "leap" forward by pushing off my back leg because invariably, my opponents hands will go down to block the kick (if he doesn't, I have him anyway). With my bodys forward movement I throw in a good, hard straight punch to his head. Works a good 90% of the time.