bushido_man96

I like that approach a lot too, Kuma, and its the one I try to train when I do Hapkido and Defensive Tactics. Getting away from those weapons, as well as placing yourself at the opponent's flank or rear, is of great strategic value in my eyes.

I think that the idea of using the word style to refer to kata came from the time when it wasn't unusual to learn just one kata from a master, spend your training time on it, and the applications found therein. Abernethy has spoken about the probabilities of this.

Not a lot of animal influence in TKD that I know of, or if there is, it just isn't a focus. However, that doesn't mean that we don't try to develop the skills that you mention above. We just try to use a more all-encompassing approach, I guess.

That's why I said legend. They have proof of Chinese MA before the existence of the Shaolin Temple, but I don't know too much more than that. Not really my area of interest, I prefer Japanese arts. I noticed that you did use the word "legend." I wasn't trying to point any fingers or anything; I just used your quote because you mentioned it, and I thought it would highlight my point. I like to read on the history of the Japanese arts, too, and I am supposed to be getting some books on Karate history from a Classical Fighting Arts contributor, but they still haven't come yet.

When defending straight-line attacks, like straight punches, side kicks, or front kicks, do you usually find yourself moving to the inside of the technique to defend, where you then might have to worry about other limbs, or to the outside of the attack, where you can be away from the other weapons for a brief time? Where do you naturally go, and what do you work towards? I'd love to hear any ideas and suggestions.

What methods have you found successful for defending against the front leg side kick, whether it is a stepping through kick or just a front leg kick? When we spar, we try to sweep the kick out of the way, and then move in on it, whether to the front of back of the leg depends on what stance you are in. Does anyone have any other suggestions for defending it?

Good luck, and keep us posted as to your progress.

I have been working out on the weekends with the Aikido club at our college, and the first technique that I have finally fealt like I have gotten a grip on is Ikkyo. The way we do it is instead of letting a lapel grab be completed, we step back and intercept the hand before it grabs the lapel (I like this, because I can see some parallels with intercepting a punch, but that would take some time). We make contact to the arm, and slide down in to grab the hand in the Ikkyo position; next, we attack the elbow by pushing it up and somewhat "through" our partner, getting them off balance; then, we step out at a 45 degree angle and circle the arm around and down into a locked straight position, with our partner hopefully below the level of our hips by now. Then we will slide back in and forward at another 45 degrees, pushing our partner down, and then slide forward and to the other 45, and into the Ikkyo pin. This explanation is probably rather crappy, but it is about the best way I can think to explain it without pictures. If anyone has any comments, thoughts, or suggestions on this technique, please feel free to let me have it! I look forward to them.

That's creative. Didn't we see a NintenToaster already?

Nice. Human bowling pins.

3-23-09 Weights Bench press: 225x7, 8 fail Row: 180x7, 8 fail Military press: 125x6, 7 fail Lat pull-down: 170x5, 6 fail Machine curl: 55x7, 8 fail Triceps push-down: 180x5 Lunges: 10 each side Ab wheel: 12, 10 Cable trunk twists: 80x10, 10 on each side Cardio: Bike for 25 minutes, then had a good stretch. Repeating round kicks: 3 sets of 5 on each side, with each rep being two kicks. I was working on doing one to the middle section, and then following up to the high section. Last week, the instructor mentioned that he would like for me to try doing a multi-level board break with the round kicks, instead of the power breaks that I usually do. He wants to use me to show flexibility with power, or the like. What the heck, I'll give it a try. MA work out (9:15 - 10:00) TKD: 9:15 - 9:50. We worked on some ring sparring drills for the upcoming tournament. I won't be competing, but the 1st dan that meets with me on Monday mornings will be going, so we're getting some extra sparring work in for him. Aikido: 9:50 - 10:00. We spent 10 minutes here working on Nikkyo. It was pretty much just an intro to the technique for me, but we can fine tune things later. We had to beat feet out of the school at 10:00 because the instructor's girlfriend teaches tumbling classes. Oh well.

Thats pretty cool. Congrats.

Yeah in ITF we only ever use "pattern" or "tul". Rarely anything else. Not even "form". I wonder if this is perhaps a regional thing. I don't hear the word pattern used a lot, other than some reading. But I have always heard the term form. In the ITF itself? I've always heard the term "pattern". That's the term used by all 3 (ITF) orgs and in the official encyclopedia. All the events I've been to use "pattern" as well (they even use the term at all international tournaments too). I know people who do the Chang Hon forms themselves might not use the term but I'm pretty sure within ITF itself its always "pattern". It could be that because I am not in the ITF that we don't use the term pattern. We use hyung in class. I think it was Anslow's book that I saw the use of the word "tul" a lot. By regional, I thought that maybe in the UK the term pattern was used more, and in the US the term form was used more. I could be wrong, though.

I think that the main issue is a safety concern. Elbows can be really nasty tools, and can cause cuts along with concussions. It will also depend on the school/style, too. Kyokushin styles tend to allow the usage of the knee strike, but not the elbow. Some styles will also allow sweeps to be used in sparring. The sparring is not as likely to be as indicative of the "original concept" as the applications of the katas are to be. But, these applications are trained in a controlled manner, and sparring is a less controlled environment.

Good book. I have read it, and although I don't do Sanchin kata, I learned quite a bit from the book. The purpose of katas, and the benefits that they provide, differ from style to style, like tallgeese mentioned. When I was in the ATA, the forms didn't have any seperate bunkai to them. However, the forms were used to develop specific levels of technique per the rank of the form. Also, every move repeated on each side, so that both sides got the same amount of attention. The forms I do now aren't as elaborate as the ATA forms are, but they are still good for developing technique and power in technique. And although I have found some reading material that demonstrates possible bunkai (called Hae Sul in Korean) for the forms I do, our school doesn't utilize them. I follow along the same lines as tallgeese does when it comes to forms practice. However, I have always enjoyed doing forms, especially for competition. I like the technical challenge that they present for me. However, I would like to take the time to spend on forms and the applications thereof, instead of just developing technical skill. But like tallgeese mentioned, if you can develop the self-defense skills without having to learn a form, then why not spend your time on the applications instead? To plug one of my own writings, you can take a look at this article on some of the aspects that can come out of forms/kata training: What Forms Are Good For.

Very nice. I think your instructor does a fantastic job of laying everything out. I'm sure that it is just my inexperience in the style talking, but it seems like there can be SO much involved with the style. It just seems like it can get overwhelming at times. But, I'm sure when you do it regularly, it probably isn't as bad as it seems.

Agreed. Much of the formalization that we see in the arts today was done so that it could be transitioned into a classroom setting. Itosu, and later Funakoshi, were known for this, so that Karate could work its way into the public school systems as physical education. Taekwondo has its roots for the most part in Karate, along with a few others (but not Taek Kyon; that's pretty much untrue), so therefore it has followed a lot of training aspects that are seen in Karate. I have read that Karate was initially a form of civillian self-defense, and has its roots in the various Te and Tegumi styles. I'd be leary to jump on board the Bodhidharma legend as an MA originator. There isn't really any substantial proof that he brought any fighting styles to China. I think it would be more than likely that the Chinese already had some established form of fighting, at least on a military level. I follow along with these lines, too, for the most part. Fighting styles developed according to needs; many cultures that had established military systems, like the Greeks and Romans, taught their warriors the basics of hand-to-hand combat, along with weapon combat. These cultures also had their traditional forms of Wrestling, Boxing, and Pankration. It has been claimed that some of the hand-to-hand combat learned by these cultures was similar to some of the Pankration skills learned. Boxing and Wreslting also developed in the Brittish Isles, as did their systems of sword combat, along with the polearms and other weapons, like the quarterstaff. Although the military of Europe may have fought with full shields and swords and armor, some civilian systems included the use of a smaller sword and a buckle, without armor. An interesting look into the evolution of combat methods can be seen when studying the history of the development of the rapier. A rapier would not make a very good field-combat weapon, especially against the armor of the day. However, it became a very popular civilian method, and as wearing the long sword decreased, and the rapier became more a part of the civillian dress code, the rapier became the weapon of popularity, and so its system developed and became more intricate. In the end, I am a firm believer that nearly every culture that has been around on earth had some native form of fighting style, be it a cultural Wrestling form (there are Egyptian heiroglyphics over 5000 years old depicting acts of Wrestling), or the use of a weapons system with a hand-to-hand supplemental combat for the warrior caste. Taking ShoriKid's note that human physiology hasn't changed that much over the last 10,000 years, I have read several texts on Medieval European combat, and in them I have seen various fighitng techniques that can be found in many of the Martial Arts schools practicing today. The sword in Japan didn't work any differently than the sword in Europe, and you can find many similarities in those fighting styles, too.

Thanks, Joe. That helps. It sounds interesting, too.

.....that no matter how many times you've seen it, you have to stop and watch it again if you see that it is on? It could be more than one, I guess. For me, Aliens is one of them. So are the Predator movies. The League of Extraordinary Gentleman, along with either of the Hulk movies ranks up there, too.

That what is cool about getting together with other Martial Artists; getting a chance to pick other practitioners' brains. Its part of the reason that I started the Training Log thread...

Welcome to KF.

3-20-09 Weights Bench press: 225x7, 8 fail Row: 180x6, 7 fail Military press: 125x6, 7 fail Lat pull-down: 170x5, 6 fail Machine curl: 55x6, 7 fail Triceps push-down: 180x4, 5 fail Ab wheel: 12, 10, 6 Cable trunk twist: 70x10, 80x10 each side 3-22-09 Aikitaisos Irimi: 10 each side Tenkan tenkai: 3x10 each side Tenkan w/step: 2x10 each side Shomen: 2x10 each side Shomen w/step: 2x10 each side

Yeah in ITF we only ever use "pattern" or "tul". Rarely anything else. Not even "form". I wonder if this is perhaps a regional thing. I don't hear the word pattern used a lot, other than some reading. But I have always heard the term form.

That's a solid arguement, Bob. Have there been any incidents where an instructor has been taken to court for an instance like this?

Congrats, JohnKeats and kkennedy219.