bushido_man96

I'm glad that you enjoyed it! I'm sure it provides a nice physical challenge, to boot. 84 moves is a long form! Let me know how you progress with it. Be sure you don't add it to your curriculum for your classes, though, as the ATA has copyrighted their forms. But if you are just challenging yourself with, by all means I'd say have at it!

That is undoubtedly true but after 2 years of good training your basic punches and kicks should be at a functional level. You should continue to practice and improve them of course but I think you reach a level of diminishing returns where you can put in a huge amount of time to make your punch a tiny bit better. Maybe some of that time would be better spent working on other areas. I agree here as well. There is a point of diminishing returns, and time is better spent improving other skills to augment the ones already gained. Some TKD schools may advance through colored belt ranks quicker than some Karate styles, but they make up for that on the black belt end, where most TKD styles have set times between each black belt rank before becoming eligible to test. I would also add that there is so much more to TKD than sport. Its still a traditional Martial Art, with many of the same basic techniques as Karate styles. It does offer the added physical challenge of jumping and spinning techniques, yes, but proficiency in that area does not come without having good, solid foundations in basic techniques. No, there is nothing wrong with being modest. But when someone constantly insists or alludes to that fact that they are "modest," then it becomes a bit much. Some become so modest that they become indignant towards the idea of becoming a higher rank.

That's great to hear! Keep up the hard work!

You guys are welcome. I'm glad you like it.

I like these. The more I watch, the more I am seeing some things that look similar from Wrestling. That first transition your coach demonstrated, it looked a lot like what wrestlers do when the sit out and then gizoni an arm that comes over the top. A wrestler then hip heists out, and is ready to go to work. Here's a version of it: Again, not the same, but I see some similarities. I really liked the structure you mentioned in making the hip shifts on the knee/elbow escape you showed. That will be helpful. Again, thanks for sharing these videos. They are great!

Early on in my TKD career, I switched my sparring stance to spar southpaw, although I'm right-handed. I did that for years, and I got pretty good sparring from that side; so much so, that switching to orthodox took some time. Now that I am in law enforcement, I switch back to orthodox more often in class and training, mainly to get into the habit of always keeping my gun side back.

Solid post!! Yes, solid post, indeed. You put it very straightforward, but it speaks volumes.

These are some interesting tidbits, and I thank you for sharing them. Its nice to hear the insight of those who have experienced it.

Congrats!

As I understand it, all ATA forms are based on the same floor pattern, the Songahm Star, an 8-pointed star-shape. http://taekwondo.wikia.com/wiki/Songahm_Star Not every ATA form uses the entire star though. Sok Bong uses an "hourglass" floor pattern within the star. Here's a diagram: http://frontiernet.net/~bovitz/tkd/documents/sokbong_form.pdf Thanks for posting that, truejim. Yes, all of the ATA forms fall somewhere along the Songham Star pattern, but since I've never learned this one, I wasn't sure where it fell. I think the only ATA form that might follow the entire star is the 9th degree form, but this is just what I have heard.

Ok, got it. I noticed they were done quicker, but I wasn't sure if it was chalked up to individual preference or what. Thank you.

Very good points, Iceman. Its not something I would have thought about, to be honest. In this form, do they still teach that balancing sequences should be for about 10 seconds, like in Taebaek? It is an interesting dynamic. If I recall properly, the ATA founder, GM HU Lee, came from General Choi's system, and I think was at least a 3rd dan under him. So he would have been familiar with most of the forms, and the grading setup. I think one of the reasons that the ITF had multiple forms per black belt rank was because there is so much time in between gradings once they get to the black belt ranks. That way, they always have something to work on.

Bonus TKD coverage this week! I'm making up for being slow last week, so here we go with 4th dan coverage! 4th dan ITF tuls: Yon Gae: Ul Ji: Moon Moo: Yon Gae: 49 movements, once again along the + diagram. We see a circular motion double ridge hand guarding blocks, not unlike the ATA's black belt circular movements, an X-checking block, a reverse knife hand low block, reverse knife hand W-shaped block, an inner forearm waist block, twin straight forearm checking block, and a low inward knife hand block (ridge hand). Most of the strikes are familiar ones, in different stances, but we see a downward back fist strike, a long fist punch, with all four knuckles extended, and a flying knife hand strike. The form starts out in what appears to me to be a herky-jerky motion, with a technique forwards, then one going backwards (but still to the front), and this continues for the up/down section of the pattern diagram. It doesn't seem to go much more than a stance forward or backward (which would work well for me, keeping it on the line). When the form starts to go side to side, it looks like it gets a bit of a Poe Eun feel to it, until the student turns backwards for a reverse hooking kick. There are also a couple of jump reverse turning kicks in the form, as well, adding a bit of challenge. I do like the short, burstiness of the beginning of the form, where you have moves you can commit good power to before moving to the next move. Ul Ji: 42 movements, with a floor pattern that looks like -L, kind of, but the left hash is connected to the top of the L. Many similar movements, in different stances. There is a twin side fist horizontal strike, a palm pushing block, inner middle forearm wedging blocks. As for kick, there is a flying high kick. We see some more kicking in combinations in this form, and the "flying high kick" appears to be a jumping front kick that must target high section. We also see target kick into an elbow strike, and a round kick/reverse kick combination (it looks like a reverse or spin side kick as the second kick). We also see the familiar pressing X-block followed immediately by the rising knife hand X-block, but its followed by a high reverse knife hand strike, with the lead hand being a reinforcement on top of the elbow, which may allude to a grab-and-pull into the strike. There is what appears to be an awkward side kick performed with the fists on the hips, coming from an X-stance, which I wonder about. The jump kick is referred to in the Encyclopedia as a "mid-air kick," but appears to me to be what I have always called a jump reverse side kick. A really interesting move is where the inner forearm wedging blocks are executed simultaneously with a front snap kick, which makes sense that the counter should happen fairly quickly upon blocking. There is also a very long step at about .30 in the video where he goes from a sitting stance with the right foot back, facing the front, and the right foot step all the way around, counter-clockwise, to a right front/walking stance; a very long step, like a 270 degree turn done in an unnatural way. Moon Moo: 61 moves, on the trusty + diagram. Here, we see a very challenging kicking form, and along with that, we see balance challenged. We see several slow execution blocks in a one-leg stance. We see a side pushing kick, a side checking kick, a side thrusting kick (with the ball of the foot doing the striking), a high twisting kick (which I'm out on...), and slowly performed high reverse hooking kicks. There are consecutive kicks herein, with a slow side kick followed by quick side kick. A high reverse turning kick, performed with the leg straight, challenges the student to kick with all that momentum and then stop, before setting the foot down. This will be a challenging form. GTF 4th dan hyung, Sun Duk: 68 movements, and on a very odd floor pattern. It also starts out in an odd manner, with the ready position being sitting cross-legged with fists on top of knees. Its named for Queen Sun Duk of the Silla Dynasty, and the diagram represents "Lady." It starts with a kneeling side kick/hooking kick combo, then gets up and goes from there. We see the GTF hallmark of lots of kicking techniques, especially jumping kicks, in this form like the past GTF black belt additions. We see combos like inner crescent kick to jump spin inner crescent kick, a high hooking kick followed by a flying hooking kick, etc. There are also standing kicking combinations like a front snap kick followed by a back leg side piercing kick. There is even a high twisting kick followed by a jumping twisting kick. Another tough one is the middle outward vertical checking kick, which then has to stop its motion and go into a consecutive side thrusting kick. We also see a 3 kick combination where there is a low side checking kick, followed consecutively by a high side thrusting kick, and then followed by a high reverse turning kick. The form finishes by going back to the knees with kneeling kicks, and ends in the same starting position. Another challenging GTF form. WTF/Kukki 4th dan Poomsae, Pyongwon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKEoLlu0SYM 25 movements, along a straight line --. It means "plain" or "vast field of land," thus I thin fitting to covering just a straight line, or plain. It has a very Poe Eun or Naifanchi feel to it, as it goes along its straight line, but the WTF wasn't afraid to go facing to the side along the line to throw in some kicking combinations, so it has its own flair as well as the Poe Eun feel. What I see as interesting is that it starts going one move to the right, and then goes left, with a knife hand block, to an elbow strike going away from the forward facing, then a front kick to reverse side kick combo, before facing forward, and we have two pulling back fist strikes. Then stepping along the line like Poe Eun with double high elbows to the side in cross-leg stance, to a mountain block, to a crane stance and diamond block, then into a hinge block (fists on hips position, still in crane stance), and then the form begins to repeat shortly thereafter. A very straight forward form, with some challenges with balance in the crane stances. ATA 4th dan Poomsae, Sok Bong: 84 moves. This form moves into doing some work on the floor, too, but in this form, we see a spinning heel kick, followed by a sweeping hook kick, then follows the kneeling round kick. The form continues a bit longer than the others on the ground, coming up to a more erect one-knee position while blocking and striking before rising completely. We see some familiar moves in the U-shaped punch, and an open-hand wedging block. Posing an interesting challenge are the jumping front kicks that go into three different directions, and you only get to land on one leg when going from one kick to the next. We see jumping kicks followed by standing kicks, which we tend to see the other way around in other forms. We see slow blocking a lot with both hands involved, and a palm pressing block that I don't think we've seen in any ATA forms yet. We see a consecutive front/round/hook kick combo followed by a step into a hook/round consecutive kick combo. And then an interesting upward arc hand strike or grab, maybe grabbing the chin(?), and then a hammer fist strike. After repeating some sections, the form finishes with a flurry of circular blocks from one side to the other, and then back to the ready position. So, there we have it, 4th dan forms. All challenging, all tiring to do, and all presenting lots of challenges for the TKD practitioners.

This is just a side note, but I've been re-reading A Killing Art, and after all that happened in regards to the relationship between Korea and Japan, it seems a strange juxtaposition for their to be a Japanese TKD team, with a Korean coach. But, that was all years ago. That is a big help, thank you, Danielle. Like I said, I'm focusing more on the width of my front stances, as that's going to be the easier aspect for me to issue quality control on. If I try to compensate by making my back stances longer, I will have trouble moving out of them, and that will make the forms look worse, and kill my mobility and flow. Thanks for sharing the competition version of Yoo Sin, as well. I thought it looked good, and I noticed that the arc-hand block/punch sections seemed to be done as a faster combination. Don't sweat the target kick section; that same thing happens to me often. I try to pivot my base leg early to help me keep my balance more as I turn into the kick, instead of swinging my leg and pivoting at the same time. That seems to help me a little bit in retaining my balance. But sometimes, it just feels like my leg "catches," and I end up dipping and botching the techniques.

Thank you, Bob. I'm glad you enjoyed it. I read it to Kendall, and now I think he understands that as much I push him, he understands that it isn't about winning, but more about being his best. I think it kind of clicked with him.

Maybe he's getting pressure from someone else in regards to it?

This is kind of how I look at it. In our association, 3rd dan is an instructor, 4th dan is a Jr. Master Instructor, and 5th dan is Master Instructor. We don't really have a Master that isn't an instructor, so the titles kind of stay together. Whether that's by design or not, I don't know. But that's how I look at it. I don't know that I could consider myself a true "master."

Thanks! I don't mind at all! That's a cool tool you used there, and that just takes this thread to the next level of awesome! Thanks for showing it here. As I watched the video more, I did see that my front stance was quite wide, which doesn't make much difference going forward and backward, but does when turning. Like I mentioned, I tried to focus on that when I practiced further, and it seemed to make a difference. Another issue may be the way I do back stances (L-stances). I was taught that in back stances, the heels stay in line, and I see in a lot of ITF manuals that they are not lined up, so this could be causing part of the issue, as well. Thanks for putting those up! They look really good. The balance on Yoo Sin just killed me. As I practice and review my forms more, I'll try to get some more videos up. We can compare and contrast the differences in our forms, and that should be fun, as well. So cool! Like I said, you have just added the next level of awesome to this thread! I did love that game. That guy is something else! So quick with his feet.

Thanks for posting these. Takes a lot to put forms up on YouTube for all to see... One quick observation and question I have right away is that your stance transitions are direct...in TKD I was taught to make stance transitions by always coming to center, but in the Kyokushin kata I have learned so far, the stance transitions are more direct. Is what I was taught in TKD unique to the school I went to? You are welcome. I don't really put them for all to see, but just the one's I want to see them. Yes, our stance transitions are always done direct. Some of the ITF styles do it differently, but I teach for the students to try not to stop in the middle of the transition. I teach them to bring the transitioning leg close to base leg, but not to stop. I try to use the turn to generate hip rotation for the technique I'm going into.

Are we ready for 3rd dan? I'm ready for 3rd dan, so here we go! ITF 3rd dan tuls: Sam Il: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEAZR7-EN5U Yoo Sin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWZnRh6bssQ Choi Yong: Sam Il: 33 movements, along the + diagram. New blocks include a reverse knife hand block, ridge hand wedging blocks, ridge hand double guarding blocks, outer forearm high outward block (with a low block as well). There is a back elbow thrust done in a diagonal stance, double fist low punches, and for kicks there are a middle twisting kick, and a sweeping kick. We also see some front leg side kicks in this form, and a front leg front snap kick. The twist kick is performed with the hands forward in a reinforced knife hand side block, likely some kind of grab prior to the kick. The hands are held in the position until the kick is completed. Fans of the Tekken fighting game series will recognize the sweeping kick segment of this form as one of Hworang's "victory dances." This form seems to take a step back from the complexities we saw in 2nd dan forms, but it still would require attention to the detail involving the footwork here. This looks like a form that I could do akin to Gae Baek, with lots of power. Yoo Sin: 68 movements. This form starts with what is called a "releasing motion," simulating a bear hug defense, followed by "angle punches" over each of the shoulders, attacking the aggressor behind you. I also think of this section as elbow strikes, as well. Breaking down the moves further, you can find the angle punch could also translate into grabbing the released wrist or hand, and attempting to work joint manipulations. The next section goes into hooking blocks (we do them as knife hands) followed by punches (this section repeats), along with outer forearm and circular blocks. Next up, a low x-block that goes to high, and then into a wrist grabbing motion There is a section in the form that has Naifanchi feel to it, with waving kicks and outer forearm blocks. Ideas here could include sweeping and takedown motions. The section of the form with the U-shaped punch, or us, includes knee-level side kicks prior to going into the waving kick section. The most wonderful part of this form for me (can you sense my sarcasm??) is the target inner crescent kick into the side kick section. When I saw this form being performed as a lower rank, I thought I would really enjoy doing it. But I was wrooong! This form has never felt good for me, and to this day, I'd still rather not perform it. It starts off feeling really powerful with the releasing motion and the hooking blocks/punching, and into the X-blocks and front kicks. After that, the stepping forward and backward with the knife hand guarding blocks and the double forearm blocks seems long, drawn out, and without the power. From there, it goes into a bit of a power stage, but with some slow tension movements that seem to kill the timing for me. The waving kick section is ok, but the target kick section is a nuclear meltdown for me. This form is our 3rd dan decided form in the TTA. Choi Yong: 46 movements, back to the + diagram. This form appears awkward to me, but I look forward to the challenge of it. There are W-shaped knife hand blocks, and reverse hooking kicks that we see, which appear to be done with a consecutive side kick. The form starts with some very short combinations going to the front and then to the back a couple of times. Then it extends a bit going into the sections with kicking combinations. We get a 3 kick combination, with a 45 degree round kick, followed by the reverse hooking kick/side kick. This repeats on both sides, as much of the form appears to. We get two more reverse hooking kicks before the finish. This form is a 5th or 6th dan form in the TTA. GTF 3rd dan hyung, Pyong Hwa: This form has 50 movements, to symbolize the 50 countries that founded the United Nations Organization in San Francisco. The name and diagram (an I with a small v at the bottom) mean "peace." We see more of the balance and repeat kicking we saw in the other GTF black belt form continue here, but with much less volume. Still, I see a pretty challenging form. Slow middle kicks followed by faster, higher section kicks in a consecutive motion. We see my friend the target crescent kick return, with a consecutive high side thrusting kick (where the ball of the foot appears to be the attacking tool). Flying side kick and front snap kick are here as well, and one of the flying front snap kicks appears to travel backwards. Twist kicks appear in this form, too. It also appears to use a lot of open hand techniques. Looks like fun! WTF/Kukki 3rd dan Poomsae, Taebaek: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCx6HVAtijI 26 movements. Taebaek means "supreme brightness," and symbolizes the spirit of Mt. Baekdoo. The Poomsae follows the I pattern. The form opens with a double low section knife hand opening block in a rear or tiger stance, followed by a front kick/double punch combination. The next section follows with what is called a swallow form knife hand strike, which includes a knife hand high block with the other hand, like seen in the second move of Choong Moo hyung of the ITF. From there, a series of punches follows, but after the swallow form knife hand and each of the punches, a deliberate twisting of the palm (and opening of the hand after the punches) is done to simulate grabbing and twisting of the opponent's wrist. The bottom of the I shows a heavy "blocking" set with a diamond middle block, pulling uppercut to high section, middle punch, a front leg side kick from crane stance, then to an elbow strike, a la Yol Gok style. This repeats on the other side, and the form goes back up the I with a section not unlike the spear hand, releasing/turning and spin to back fist section of Do San. At the top of the I are a combination with a scissors block and front kick with punches. Overall, I like the combinations that are put together in this form, as it seems to have some unique moves, along with the flavor of some other forms I'm familiar with. ATA 3rd dan Poomsae, Chung San: 83 moves, and we see the single-arm technique, along with some circular blocking motions. Kicking keeps getting tougher, and we see slow side kicks followed by repeat fast side kicks. There is a combination of outer crescent kick followed by spin crescent kick, done from a neutral stance. There are target kicks, as well, done with inner crescent kicks, and jump spinning inner crescent kicks. There are also some interesting hand techniques coming into play, with a two finger poke with a reinforced knife hand below the elbow. At the beginning, the punch you see is a four-knuckle punch that comes after the circular knife hand strike. We get repeating round kicks as well, and towards the end we see spin heel kick followed by a jump reverse side kick. We also get a triple repeating kick sequence, a hook kick/round kick/side kick combination. There is also some strange gallop in the middle of the form where it looks like he is winding up a jump front kick, but instead lands to a blocking motion of some kind, then the jump front kick comes a few moves later. I only achieved 2nd dan rank in the ATA, so this form is one I've seen done a lot, but never done myself. There we have it, 3rd dan material, over and done. Bring on the comments!

It doesn't really have to be a Shotokan "offshoot," though, if you retain the Shotokan curriculum. You are just flavoring in your own other skills and curriculum along with it. This is really what lots of Martial Artists do as they advance in their training. Also keep in mind that by sticking with Shotokan, it will be easier for your students to be recognized through whatever governing body your Shotokan is tied through.

It sounds like you've got things pretty figured out. This is an interesting post, as you are asking about "expanding your horizons," and it sounds like your sensei has done just that in his own right, but he just hasn't gone in a direction you prefer. I think its great that your sensei is trying different things into his training. Try to remember, he is still on his journey, too. I also agree with the comments that Kusotare makes in regards to being a consumer, and your concerns about loyalty to your instructor. But keep in mind what your goals are; if your goals aren't consistent with what your current instructor's are, then there is no need to stay tied to him. You also have to consider where your loyalty lies; is it with your instructor, or with the art? You also have to consider being loyal to yourself. Best of luck with your grading coming up, and please keep us all posted on how it goes!

I just look at it as a rank thing. I think someone can achieve mastery minus perfection. I understand that we should always continue to strive to get better, to understand more, and all that. It should be so in any activity. The only place I really have any qualms about the issue is once outside the school setting.

Why can't you just do Shotokan, promote as Shotokan (if you are of rank and experience to do so), and pepper in your own personal touches with the Muay Thai? As you go, you could tweak what you do with the Muay Thai, adding what you feel fits and removing what doesn't. But if it doesn't work, then you and your students always have the consistency of what Shotokan offers as a fall back.

This was posted on our Wrestling club's Facebook page, and I thought I would share it here: http://us3.campaign-archive.com/?u=fcc99027a8a53353a4b766d44&id=9c9a1af3d7 This is the truth about Wrestling, and I'm proud to be a Wrestling Dad.