Jade_Lotus

if unfortunate enough to be placed in a situation that you cannot get out of and are forced to defend yourself from multiple opponents, each hit must count. If you knock someone down, do it as such that they will NOT get back up. Every hit must be to a vital area, there are many on the human body, utilize them. Be efficient, don't waste energy doing pointless moves. Having been assaulted serveral times on the street by multiple attackers, each was ended quickly. Any fight will not last long, and things will happen very fast. In my situations, when I hit the first attacker, he fell, and did not get back up, I hit him in a vital area, and I hit him HARD. When faced with more than one opponent, and it is clear that you can't talk, or walk your way out, don't let them make the first move. Stike first, fast and powerful! Don't slow down, and don't pull punches or kicks. This has been my experience.

Youkoso! Anata wa nihongo ga hanashimasu ka?

Kensai, the question must then be asked..By what criteria, is a"great master" judged? Who decides who is a "great master" and who isn't? Is it not all in the eye of the beholder? As Martial_Artists made a point of, concerning O Sensei Richard Kim. Is a "great master" judged by countless recognition, praises for accomplished feates, or self-proclaimed status? Are trophies, belts and certificates the critera from which a "great master" is determined? Who is the definitive authority from which "great masters" are declared? -Jade_Lotus-

Jade's Quote: It is not solely the art, and it is not solely the fighter, it is both. Howerver, the art is more imporant. You must take into account the means by which the fighter fights, for his art makes him the fighter he is. BlackI's Quote: Right here you say that it is both but you lean towards the art, in so far as, to decide who the victor would be. Yes, it is true that it is both, but art plays more of a role. I never said that fighter didn't play a role. I can talk about the significance of the fighter as well, but the discussion here is about art playing a more important role. BlackI's Quote: "Then you fully commit to say that there are inferior arts" Yes, that's what I've been saying. There is always an opposite to everything. It is impossible for all arts to be the same. Since they are not the same, how can they be equal? No art is perfect, no art can teach you all you will ever know. By this very design, there will always be a good and bad. You can't know one without the other. BlackI's Quote: "Then you made this statement in you last post. I did not think that you were insulting HKD, it was taking that you feel that there are inferior arts. I am almost willing to say that is ludicrous. Is there any scientific data to prove this fact. Can you say that ever time a HKD vs TKD, one or the other will win? No, I don't think you can. To many unknown varibles to name a winner, if you want to stay scientific about this whole thing." Ludicrous?? Ask yourself this question.."Is my art good?" "I any art good?" It doesn't matter if you answer Yes or No, my point remains the same and valid, there is no good without bad. You don't need scientific data, to understand this. Like I've said before I don't comment on specific style, I will never say this style can beat this style. You're right, you cannot do that. What I am saying is that not all styles are good, by nature and design, they ALL cannot be good. Judging which is better than the other is not my intent, nor my desire. I could careless, like I said I have a very different view on style. I'm not trying to change minds or beliefs, but If I read something I feel is hindering in any way, then I will comment. I don't believe in "style" or limitaions, but I comment on then anyways...why you may ask? I'm here for martial progression..the never ending path of the martial way. If I can offer help to other Martial artists then I will. BlackI's Quote: "It is not the art/style * that make a difference but the philosophy behind the teaching. This is why you have alot of people feeling that there are inferior/superior arts. If you have a bunch of Mcdojo's then there will always be inferior fighters, but that is not to stay that a fighter could not go to the same style and a different school and become a great fighter. That is the bitter and sweet that you are talking about. It is solely the fighter that has the work ethic, commitment and intelligence to become a could fighter. Not style. "[/color] What is an art/style without philosophy??? What makes an art an art?? It is it's philosophy. You need to put a purpose behind the series of movements prescribed in each art. If you don't, there you have nothing more than meaningless movements of the body. This purpose..is the philosophy/concepts that make an art an art. You admit that there is inferior philosophy. Based off of this, you concede that there are inferior arts. You can't have an art without philosophy. BlackI's Quote: "If you have a bunch of Mcdojo's then there will always be inferior fighters, but that is not to stay that a fighter could not go to the same style and a different school and become a great fighter" Not every art will make you a good fighter. Not every art accomplishes combat. You speak of work ethic, commitment, intelligence as attributes that make a good fighter. No one has stated otherwise, I've said nothing to the contrary. What I have said, is that this work ethic, commitment and intelligence will aid the fighter in learning what he is learning, it will make the learning process more natural and the concepts easier to understand. But still you have the medium in which he uses to fight. I will refer to these attributes, as an innate ability. Innate ability doesn't magically make you a good fighter. If you take a person that has an innate fighting ability, but that person, has no training, is not aware of his abilities, then his innate ability does him no good. He needs a means by which to utilize and harness that innate ability. If the means or "art" he chooses is flawed, then he may indeed be the best at that art, but it will catch up to him, and eventually he will lose. Having been confined and limited by his "style". The bitter/sweet that I speak of is the ideaology that you can't have one without the other, you wouldn't know that sugar is sweet if you've never tasted a lemon or something bitter. You would not know a technique is effiecient, without knowing what is ineffiecient. Let's just humor the subject for a minute..say that everything that i've been posting, are things that a "Sensei" or a "master" of a particular style has taught me. Say that this ideaology I place before you are the teaching of this style. Let's just say that, just like you practice and study your MA, that this one is mine, only the philosopy, and ideas taught, are portrayed in my recent posts. Many people discredit it, you yourself, almost call it ludicrous. Yet this is my style, this is means and the purpose behind all I study and know. This is the basis for the applications of my techniques, the reasoning behind it. Surely, if I continue in this ludicrous manner, then I will never be a good fighter. Yet, I have a innate fighting ability...ah, but wait, the means in which I use my innate ability is ludicrous. Do you see my point? You support my viewpoint, while contradicting yourself at the time. It's like the example I gave a while back..you can take the mose innate pilot on the planet, and then you can take an average pilot..place the innate pilot in a bi-plane, and place the average fighter in a modern day fighter jet. You pick the winner? There is no magical powers at work here...the innate pilot will lose. His innate ability doesn't magically make the average pilot lose control of his plane and crash before he can shoot him from 50 miles away with a missile. This is just an example, but can be applied to the MA's. Sure, one can say that there are hundreds of different variables that determine the outcome of a fight, outside that of the fighter and art. This is true, but you can't rely solely on that, it seems that every time there is a discussion about art or fighter that the ultimate response is that there are so many variables that it doesn't matter. If this is true, then we are all studying the martial arts for no reason, because there are so many variables out there, that it wouldn't make a difference. This should not be the ultimate response, there indeed are many variables that determine the outcome a fight, but it is still reliant upon the the fighter and the means by which he is taught to fight to win the fight. Let's just say that you have a magnificent innate ability...maybe you do, I don't know...but let's say you do...and lets say you've never ever studied any MA, would you know how to perform the techniques that you know now?? of course not...your "style", defines what you know, as a fighter. It is up to you to seek further knowledge outside that or your "style". The will and heart of a fighter in undoubtedly aid tremendously in all that he does pertaining to the fight, it will most certainly put passion into his fight. But the fact still remains the same, the way in which he uses his innate ability is through what he knows. So, I say that both the fighter and the art play a role, of course, but the more importance lies in the art. But, don't mis-understand me, I will and cannot say that the heart of fighter is not important, as a matter of fact it is crucial, only that art gives the means to fight, thus being more important. BlackI's Quote: I am almost willing to bet that if you take the greatest fighter in the world that happened to be trained in a form of karate and then strip him/her of all his/her skills then trained in Tai Chi, they would still become the best fighter in the world. I'm not one to judge the effectiveness any one art, I belive in martial purity, I seek progession in the martial way outside the bounds of limitation, and style. Like I said, I will not say that this art is better than that art, it's no my place nor my desire to do so. It doesn't matter to me. However, I do know by the very nature and design of a "style" then all is not the same and all is not good. If there exists a "Greatest fighter in the world" certainly he would not be the "greatest" having confined and limited his abilites by staying within the bounds of one "style". He would most certainly learn that in his quest to be the "greatest". That there is no style, boundaries, or limitations in the true martial arts. He would discover, that no one art can teach all that is to be encountered in combative situations. He will discover that not all arts are complete, and that not all are good. Like I said before, I'm not here to convert, or change minds. You believe what you believe, and I what I believe. You can take what I say and do what you want with it, that is your right and choice. I respect all views, but will not hesitate to offer my experiences and knowledge, to help others in their martial progression. I wish you the best of luck in your martial progression, and I hope you attain that which you seek for. keep your gaze wide and open, there is always more to learn, there are no boundaries, no limits..only the limitations one puts upon himself. Look past the limitations, and you begin to walk further down the path of the martial way. These are things that through my journey I have learned. Take what you want, use it as you will..or throw it all away. It is all the same to me. -Jade_Lotus-

Mr, Mrs, or Ms. That's it. If I say "Leaf san" I'm saying Mr. Leaf. If I say kickchick san, then I'm saying Mrs. KickChick. The Japanese don't call eachother by their first names, they use their last names. So if my name is Joe Smoe, you wouldn't say Joe san, this would be very incorrect, you would say Smoe san, that is the correct way. Hope this helps

There are many dialects, in the Japanese language. These dialects differ from region to region, most of them mainting their "deep" or older japanese. Thus making them a different dialect. It is possible, the "zai" is a dailect of "sai", which is why I stated that he may be using older Japanese. So, yes that is very possible. Hope this helps.

"...he who unleashes first, unleashes last!" this is the furthest from the truth, I don't know where it is that you attained this great knowledge, but I know that it couldn't possibly be from experience. Every single street fight I have been in my opponent/opponents, "unleashed" first. They came at me suddenly and quickly, with tremendous force. Most of them fell with kicks, others fell by other means. They were the first to unleash, but they were also the first to fall. There is no wisdom in that phrase whatsoever, true as it may be that aggression is a necessity in a fight, but don't fool-heartedly believe that if you unleash your attacks first then, you are sure to win. My experience has been the exact opposite. This may only stand true if you are speaking of bumbling, untrained fools on the street, but this is not the philosophy of a trained skilled fighter. This is just my opinion.

BlackI, you are both right and wrong...you are correct in that there are inferior fighters, but there are ALSO inferior arts. How could you believe otherwise? Do you believe that every art out there is equal and the same?? This is impossible, by their very nature of being "styles" they are different. Do you understand this phrase "There is no good without bad" I'll assume not, since I've said it before, so let me explain it to you. How would you know what is good, without something to compare it to?? If there was no bad, then you would not know what is good. How do know that something is sweet, if you've never tasted sour?? You can't just "take someones word for it", to do this shows weakness of the mind, and will result in you being walked on your entire life. The philosophy behind an art make the art what it is..without a philosophy, a "style" is nothing more than a bunch of pointless movements of the body. You have supported my argument, and contradicted yourself, by making the statement that there are "inferior philosphies" After reading your post, it leaves one asking the question..do you really comprehend what philosophy and "style" really are?? Do you realize that style without philosophy is nothing?? Of course you must first comprehend, what "style" and philosophy are, to answer the second. The idea of style playing more a role than the fighter is a simple one. Don't just look at the surface, take the idea and think about it. It doesn't take an enormous amount of comprehension to understand the idea placed before you. It's common sense at it's most basic level . I never said anything negative about Hapkido, I was responding to the comment "style don't mean much". I don't comment on specific styles, I have quite a different belief about "styles" in general. I hope this helps you to understand my belief.

Why do think that the fighter is more important than the style??? I have talked about this in another thread, so I won't get into too much detail here. Here is the link to the other thread: http://www.karateforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4389 It is not solely the art, and it is not solely the fighter, it is both. Howerver, the art is more imporant. You must take into account the means by which the fighter fights, for his art makes him the fighter he is. If the fighter did not have an art, then it doesn't matter how innate he is at fighting, it won't do him any good..the same is applied if he has an inferior art. His innate ability to fight will help him, and make the things in which he is learning, easier for him to comprehend, perform and become proficient at. But, without the art, he would not have the means to fight. His art is the means by which he utilizes his innate ability. First, it must be realized that not all arts are equal, and not all arts are good. As Martial Artist put it.."There is no good without bad, and there is no sweet without sour" You can't say that all MA's are good, without, there being bad ones. Once this is realized then you can begin to understand that the art plays more of an important role that the actuall fighter. You can read the link I provided for further support of my belief.

Style means more than the fighter

I never said that "sais" is the correct way to say it. I said that there are no plural distinctions in Japanese. In fact, "sais" is incorrect. What you are referring to is romaji, the romanization of japanese characters. There are so many different versions out there, many people shorten the words for expample...kado(place a line above the "a") and kaado, would both mean the same thing. They both indicate to hold the syllable "a" for another beat. When writing roomaji, the japanese don't put the lines above letters they spell it all out. I know many teachers and have many friends that are japanese and live in japan, this is how it is taught. The differnece in "sai" and "zai" is that one may be older japanese than the other, but it is NOT plurality. The "s" is not pronounced the same as the "z", they are two distinct sounds. Sei means something completely different thatn Zei. They are NOT pronounced the same. So therefore "sai" would not be pronounced "zai". I believe you need to educate yourself on the Japanese language a bit more. Not all pronounciations are from Kanji, they are mostly from hiragana, in fact the sounds that make up the Kanji, are taken from hiragana. The difference in Kanji and hiragana, are simple..hiragana are characters that are associated with a sound, they have no meaning, until they are put together. for example...the characters, "ka"....."ta"....and "na", mean nothing until they are placed together..."katana" or sword. Kanji are characters that are associtated with a meaning, one character could mean fire, or water, or just whatever, unlike hiragana, where one character means nothing. if you take for example the kanji for honor, it is two characters one is "mei" and the other is "yo" in hiragana, this wold be three characters "me"..."i"...and "yo" Kanji, is meant ot simplify the writing language and shorten it, that's all. Mr. Nishiuchi, is probably speaking older Japanese. But make no mistake about it, there is no plural distinctions in Japanese. I hope this clears things up.

Here is my take, first off to ckdstudent, you don't need to call the ambulance, they'll just send the police out first anyways, it's their protocol, anytime there was a violent incident, the police secure the scene, and then they call in the ambulance. Speaking again from experience, you know that the instant you knock someone down, if they are hurt bad or getting right back up, if you just pushed them down you're going to know if they are getting back up, if you break an arm, the instant you do, and you see a bone pop out, you know that they are hurt bad...that instant that it is done, you know. You know that when you punch someone in the sternum and you feel and hear the break, you know they aren't gettin back up...my point being, unless you just push them down, or hit them with weak little "paper tiger" attacks, you know the general condition of your attacker....hey, even if you do, do little weak attacks you'll know, that you didn't damage him enough to put him down. One doesn't "clobber" his opponent and then close his eyes and run. It doesn't happen this way. It is true, you don't want to be in a situation any longer that you HAVE to. You're right in that you must handle the situation and remove yourself from it, but in a street fight, i guarantee you'll know the condition of yourself and your attacker. He'll either be on the ground squirming and screaming with pain, or just lying there without motion, or he'll be up on his feet coming at you again. It's part of fighting, knowing whether or not your opponent is hurt.

keep kicking your bag, until you build a callus, then your foot will sting no more. I train with a 100lb hard canvas bag, and when I kick it with extreme force, there is no sting. This is because my feet are conditioned and hardened. Thus the usual sting that would be present upon kicking a bag with such force, is not there. The same is true for all types of materials...I have kicked them all. Your feet just need conditoning.

FYI, there are no plural in distinctions in Japanese. Just thought you might want to know that. If you ask me how I know..well...I speak Japanese.

speaking from experience, in most cases, I wouldn't bother. the injuries given to an attacker can be only a broken limb or just busted up. I had someone who attacked me with a knife in the middle of a retention basin, after asking for my wallet, anyhow, as I went to give it to him, he just went psycho and attacked me, anyhow, a couple seconds later he was on the ground with a broken arm and a broken sternum. I went to a nearby house and called the police. I couldn't in the right mind leave my attacker there with no medical attention, the threat was over, i was no longer in danger..he did not need to die. Always remember mercy, never take life unless there is no other choice. This attacker with a knife, did not need to die..however it is very likely that in the heat of combat when someone is attempting to take your life, that you may dispatch them while defending yourself, this will depend on your skill level, the skill of your attacker and your circumstances, you just don't take any chances when your dealing with your life. In my case, i was facing a supremely inferior attacker, I didn't need to take his life..he had a knife and did a lame attack, he was obviously nothing more that a scraggly kid, trying to commit crime...far from a hardened street killer. That's my take on it, if life does not need to be taken then don't take it. If that means calling in help, for your broken attacker then do it. Don't be concerned with legalities, especially when life is at stake. If needs be use a payphone..do something. Life is to be taked very seriously.

Welcome!

Howdy!

Welcome

Look, a "kiai" is not a yell..if you yell, you'll just sound stupid, and it will do you no good. However, if a "kiai" is done properly from your core, your "gut" with your mouth shut, then it will ADD to the power of an attack. No one said that you can't get powerful attacks without one, it's just used to channed internal engery, and add it to an attack. Quite simply, a "kiai" is exhaling from your core, or your gut upon imact. When you lift weights, do you hold your breath?? No, you exhale. Same concept. A "kiai" is useful, when PROPERLY.

People don't laugh at Boxing like they do at the Martial Arts..this has already been covered in another post, so i'll only speak briefly about it. Since they day of the Mcdojo, Martial arts have not been taken seriously. Think about, you take a civilization that is used to what they call the "norm." 2 people standing it up and duking it away. Then they see these little asian men running and flipping around throwing their feet in the air. What do think they'll think?? Quite simply boxing is taken more serioulsy and is not laughed at. That's it in a nut shell for more information you can look at this thread. http://www.karateforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=53865&highlight=#53865

"For the true master wins all his fights without fighting at all."

LOL indeed he may!

First of all.. Well said Martial Artist! They both play a role, however I believe that the art plays more a role than the fighter...for the simple reasons stated above, from where does the fighter get his means of fighting??? From the art he studies..if you take a person who has studed Olympic TKD, and art designed purely for tournament, under rules and restrictions, and he is the most innate, skilled and most efficient olympic TKDist out there, and he were forced to enter into combat with a person who has studied an effective art designed purely for street combat and survival...I don't care how innate the Olympic TKDist is...his tools simply don't provide with the means in which to handle true unexpected combat. Fighters have their will, their burning heart..the soul and will of a fighter are unconquerable. A true fighting spirit pushes the fighter to points ubearable..."though his body says stop, his spirit cries NEVER!" This is the spirit of a fighter. However, if this will, this spirit and soul doesn't have the proper means in which to accomodate it, then this spirit, will die with the fighter. I don't care how much a patriot burns with loyalty and patriotism for his country, he can't jump in a bi-plane and fight and win against an enemy who is flying a modern fighter jet...it just doesn't happen...they are the same medium of fighting...air to air combat, but one is far superior to the other. Even if the bi-plane pilot is the best pilot known to man. This is just an example, but can be applied to fighting. A person can be the most innate fighter on Earth, but if his means of fighting are less effective, then it will catch up with him, and he will lose. So, it is both, the art and the fighter, but the art is far more important. Of course all this is just my opinion.

Keep up the good training, if you continue to train hard, then you'll succeed. Get some formal training, it'll help keep your gaze wide and open. And help give you some direction. But keep up the good work, and if there is any more about your style, please do tell.

I have a friend that did it once...it was a looooong time ago, back in High School, in the Library, some kid wanted to fight him, so he jumped on the floor and curled up in the fetal position and started sucking his thumb...the guy walked away, and there was no fight.