juey palancu

Cathal, A hook is an horizontal punch that goes around the guard of the opponent, either over the guard (to the head), or under (to the body, ribs, kidney, liver, etc). When thrown from up close the hips move first, when thrown from far away the hand moves first. It is done with a bent arm, and because of this, it only reaches the target effectively if done with the leading hand. If the feet are squared up, then either hand can throw a hook, I guess, but squared up is something boxers dont do very much since it leaves many openings. The cross is an (usually) straight punch done with the trailing hand, but it can be slightly looping in order to reach the target. or, at least, this is how I learned when I did it.

Oh, there is also somethingcalled a 'shovel-hook', which is kind of like a low level haymaker thrown with the trailing hand. That's where the confusion might come from.

Boxers have been turning over their hooks since they saw how successful Jack Johnson was doing it, quite a few decades ago. that's when the old pugilism style went away to never come back. That hardly qualifies as 'new' stuff. There an exception, though: if the target is far enough away, it turns more into a haymaker, so the palm faces in to get mroe reach. This is quite diffferent from the oriental arts 'hook'. Some boxers do this differently because of their preference or style, but the 'texbook' technique for the last 40+ years has been to turn it over. A hook HAS to be executed with the leading hand to be called that. At least during my 9 years of boxing that was the common usage. That's what I learned. A curved punch done with the back hand is either an overhand (over the top), an uppercut (under) or (what most people throw) a haymaker. With the trailing hand, you cannot bend the arm so much because the traling hand, by definition, is far away from the opponent. A properly bent hook done with the trailing hand wont even hit the target. Look it up.

I meant, typical, textbook boxers' "hook". Also, to be considered a "hook" in boxing it has to be executed with the leading hand. If done with the trailing, power hand, it's called a "cross".

The typical, "textbook" boxers punch is done with the palm facing downwards. The term usually used by trainers is "turning over the punch".

oops, i meant 8-16 years ago..

Whe I was younger, say 18-24, about 8-10 years ago, sometimes our dojo's black belts would 'resolve' issues related to getting on each other's nerves by sparring real hard. Resulting from this we had some memorable moments and sparring sessions. I remember one when our sempai and the 'wannabe sempai', the second-most advanced student who wanted to be first, went at it for about 20 minutes on a practice session in which the sensei wasnt present. It never really became an all-out fight, but the whole affair ended up straddling the line between 'spirited' and 'brutal'. They were really hitting each other very hard. In the end, the sempai reaffirmed that he was, indeed, still better than the other guy when the other guy quit due to a busted rib. To his credit, the other guy never complained to the sensei nor tried to get revenge later. The sensei mostly turned a blind eye to these affairs, although he would frequently reminded that we were training to make each other better, not to mess our peers up. I was involved in a few such incidents, but none that hardcore. Was it wrong to do those things? Maybe. But we were all friends or at least familiar with each other for years (ours wasnt a commercial dojo). These hard sessions would never involve visitors or colored belts, however. Any thoughts or similar stories?

Jiffy, Once again I agree with you completely. Well put. I've seen people collapse in a heap from a gyaku-zuki Besides, shotokan does have MANY grabs and throws in kata and their bunkai. Even clinch work! Just refer to the last few moves of heian yondan for example. Not to mention the tekkis... gero

BTW, 24fightingchickens, GREAT WEBSITE!!!! Your articles are really good. Are U a professional writer? Gero

It's sad to hear long-time shotokanists so disillussioned with what they are getting from shotokan. It's also sad to say that after traveling for a while and training with JKA dojos in different places, I have found out that some well-known dojos are really shortchanging their students by preparing them to compete in tournaments but not to survive in the street. The JKA nowadays may be really doing a disservice to Shotokan! Kata is the essence of karate and the Bunkai is the connection between the kata and the real world. I was fortunate to learn in a Shotokan dojo (actually, it was the sensei's backyard) in which the hardcore students have been going for YEARS, they are true apprentices and the sensei (a 6th dan) is a true teacher, very generous with his knowledge, and his instruction includes a LOT of Bunkai. Because of this, we have become quite adept at applications and self-defense, including grappling and joint manipulation. Students from our group are generally feared in inter-dojo 'friendly' competitions in our area, which include goju, shorin, wado-ryu, and shito-ryu clubs. Our knowledge of bunkai and our effectivity is usually better than the other clubs, and we get many 'take it easy, please' requests in our inter-dojo meetings, evne though the other dojos, specially the goju-ryu ones, usually include younger, larger, more athletic people. We are a tough group I have to say! And we are Shotokan! My point is, it depends on the dojo, the teacher, and the purpose of the dojo, not the style/art itself. Anybody who says Sensei Funakoshi was not a bunkai-oriented guy does not know a lot about the history of karate. He was actually FAMOUS among senseis of his time for his knowledge of bunkai and application of technique. The post-Funakoshi, post-Tanaka, JKA needs to get it together, though, because it seems they might lose their connection with the true essence of karate. two-cents, Gero

Interesting thread I tend to agree that the development of an individual as a warrior/fighter/defender is what will determine the outcome of a street confrontation (if there are no guns involved, if there are, all bets are off, really). Please dont turn this into yet another MMA vs TMA confrontation, elbows!

Shotokan, Jion and Gankaku

It is well known that Funakoshi DID know a lot about bunkai and that he emphasized it a lot. Sensei McCarthy, a modern bunkai master, always credits Funakoshi's knowledge of applications. The story about Itosu deciding not to teach the "secret", "brutal", "maiming", or "killing" applications of karate sounds a lot like mythology, and I, for one, would bet it is. ossu

yeah, good point about comparisons. They can be very unfair. Regarding side vs squared stances, a lot of karate sparring is done form stances other than side stances, so that generalization is also potentialy misleading.

somedoy already said this, but I want to expand. Zabaki (shifting poistions for evasion). When you move to evade (better than blocking most of the time), dont creat too much distance, instead, create an angle that is advantageous to you. Then, attack! 2 cents,

It took me about 8 years of hardcore training to achieve shodan at my dojo. Three more for nidan. This is more or less how long it has taken for everyone trainign under my sensei It was sometimes disheartening to advance slowly, but the payoff was great. We would go to tournaments and meetings and as brown belts we would wipe the floor with shodans and nidans from other dojos. it's better to be regarded as an exceptional brown belt than as an undeserving black belt in my opinion...not that the color of the belt really counts for anything, really...

Yep, the two styles are complementary. Not only that, when one gets advanced enough one can see that the differences are not so great in that practically all of the movement in one style are represented in the other. The emphasis is different. There is an offshoot of Goju-ryu called Go-ju-chi-i, anybody here practices that? ossu.

I apologize for the misquotation (WapCaplet and not Skeptic was the author of the article) and also for the misdirected annoyance (the article itself was great, my annoyance really was coming from the Shotkan-haters who don't know enough about it but make claims about the comparative affectiveness of their 'eclectic' systems.... humble apologies Juey

Skeptic's article is nice and I can see the points there, but yet another person makes Shotokan come across as an art not developed for fighting. I am a Shotokanist from a traditional dojo (small group of people traning together for years and years with a lot of spirit) and I can tell you that Shotokan, the real thing, is a superb, SUPERB fighting art (this coming from a former amateur boxer). I have gone to full-contact competitions (kyokushin/open and semi-MMA with some grappling) and done VERY WELL. I only lost once, to a fellow shotokanist by the way! The finishing blow concept of traditional shotokan has served me very well against karatekas form other styles who believe in staying in the pocket trading punches, because by the time they put their combinations together, I have them on the floor gasping for air. I dont do full-contact anymore, but I feel VERY confident in my Shotokan. I have also fended off multiple attackers in a life or death situation, seriously injuring one of them (who had a baseball bat as a weapon). Ok, I just wanted to 'defend the honor' of my style. I'm done now. Ossu

Legkicker, Maybe you cant recognize a gyakutzuki. That was the punch (it was a textbook gyakutzuki too, look at the video again) which had Franklin knocked out on his feet right before that grazing maewashi geri. I'm sorry my friend, but I have been doing Shotokan for years and I have to tell you, Ryoto fighta like a Shotokanist, not like a muay thai or boxer (both of which I have also done, specially boxing). I do admit, however, that he must ahve picked his groundwork soemwhere else than a shotokan dojo. Maybe recognizing a style is in the eye of the beholder? respectfully

Alsey, I'm not trying to change what anyone does or doesnt. I used to be a boxer myself, and I happen to prefer doing hikite (when punching). I'm just sayting that the arguments presented here about the lack of effectiveness of the technique dont hold water. I disagree with your interpretation and timeline for the use of hikite. Chinese martial artists have been doing it for at least 5 hundred years, coming from the yin/yang, balance concepts of Bodhidarma. Okinawan karatekas (like Funakoshi)got it from them. Sensei Funakoshi did not invent the concept. Most Shaolin kenpo styles have hikite and use it when striking. As for the MMA, these competitions are more akin to boxing/kickboxing in terms of the striking strategy (trading blows/techniques, staying in the pocket, trying to dominate the opponent instead of trying to defend oneself). In karate, one doesnt plow into harm's way to prove one is tough and to win the judges over with agression (in which case, it probably is better to have both hands up near the chin at all times). Traditonal Karate is a defensive art that (usually) prefers to use timing and distance, striking when the time is right with maximimum power (thus hikite). However, please have a look at Ryoto Machida (shotokanist who used a traditional karate reverse punch, (with hikite) to knock Rich Franklin out a while ago). sorry for the long post, respectfully, Gero --- Nidan, Traditional Shotokan

to that i would say if it doesn't leave you open, then you're not fighting anyone with enough skill. we can criticise eachother's fighting methods (even though we havn't seen eachother fight), but the only real test is whether the technique works or not. Well, the hikite is done with the non-punching hand, so one doesnt chamber before punching, unless one is doing a combination, so there should be no problem alerting the opponent. It actually gives you a wider range of techniques to employ. As for the "not fighting somenone with enough skill":Look, people have been doing hikite for hundreds, probably thousands of years. If it was such a piece of cake for someone with enough skill to catch them, they would have sfor sure stopped doing it. Just like Orca above, I have sparred good boxers and kickboxers and I've never been caught doing hikite. respectfully, Gero

I agree with Jiffy. Also, like Orca said, if doing hikite leaves you open, you are doing it for too long or at the wrong time.

Jiffy, Thanks that's a GREAT picture! I can definitely see what happened leading up to it. You must have avery good photographer in your dojo. thanks, Gero ---- Nidan, Traditional Shotokan

Jiffy, Thanks for your reply. Yep, we do it the same way (traditionally) and use similar deception techniques at advanced ranks. I also somtimes like to show a yoko geri keage coming and actually turn my back and deliver a strong ushiro geri. It's the nicest feeling when it works and the opponent gets tagged with no idea of what was coming! Of course, being on the recevieng end of the deception is not as fun! Our schools must train pretty similarly. My instructor trained under O'Sensei Nakayama and O'Sensei Nishiyama. best, Gero --- Nidan, Traditional Shotokan