elbows_and_knees

ringside is based there as well. They are one of the biggest boxing suppliers and are also the sponsors of a national level amateur tournament held there yearly.

yeah - muay thai is relatively new... it ws developed in the 1920's. prior to that, there were various muay - muay lon lon, muay kaad cheurk, muay chaiya, mae mai, etc. many of those traditional techniques have been lost for various reasons - the burning of the records, preference for muay thai, etc. What is known of thsese traditional muay is today lumped together and taught as muay boran.

I still don't see what it is about the palm heel strike (or at least the way I do it) that makes it so "unusable" in a fight. I just see posts that say "Yeah, but you can't use it that often" etc.

we - or at least I - didn't say palm strikes were unuseable. The topic came up, so I addressed it - but not in reference to palms.

And most of what is trained in the more traditional muay thai isn't used in ring fights.

have you ever seen anyone step off the opponents knee to get a knee to their face?

have you ever seen the same step off a knee to get height to get a good kick to the head?

so if these things also aren't ever really going to be used then why do they still train in them in proper muay thai schools?

there is a big difference in training in the art and fighting with the art.

there is also a world of difference to playing a roda and fighting.

actually, IME you won't find that in most muay thai schools. you will find them in muay boran schools - schools teaching the traditional muay. you will also learn various jumping attacks and spinning kicks.

that's an opinion I'd agree with.

at one time or another... that's exactly the point. I don't care if people used the butterfly kick to evade low weapon sweeps back in the day - it's really not applicable now. People just hold on to tradition for the sake of holding on to tradition.

Also makiwara is useful to harden the striking area while bag is useful in making your strikes heavier

the bag toughens the striking area as well. you can't hit a 200lb bag without some amount of toughess being developed. Look at thai boxers for example - all of their toughening is based on the bag, thai pads and sparring.

But as you would expect IMO there is not a better tool for showing weakness in technique as a properly made makiwara.

It is also my experiance that a heavy bag tends to encourage bad form e.g. your elbow flys out on tsuki,s.

regards maki

How does a heavy bag encourage that? that is bad form the the person's part - not a fault of the bag. If you have to move yourself into proper position, then maneuver around the bag. but I don't see how bad technique can be blamed on a training tool...

yeah, there is definitely a rythm. capoeira has one as well and play music during training / competition. Off the top of my head, these are the only two styles I can think of who do this.

that's not unique, necessarily... in china, the military was taught (if I remember correctly) some form of longfist, and the officers were taught xingyi.

There are a lot of martial arts that were taught to soldiers in their respective countries.

no offense, but training your chest and arms really doesn't help your martial skill much... I lift weights as well - and I do curls and bench presses - but when talking about functional, MA specific strength, you need full body compound exercises.

Pushups build endurance in your muscles, not strength.

On a side note, I just realize that 3hitKO is from kansas... that is like the amateur boxing capital of the world. He should be able to get some awesome training there.

My Sensei is dedicated to say the least. It is good advice to train that way, but a tough way to train. I think I'm making people more confused...

I understood what you're saying - I think the insane part confused some, which is why we tried to clarify. the sand bag thing is definitely a good idea.

I think the problem a lot of people have is that they are looking for some magical method of making them tough quickly. The bottom line is that conditioning takes time.

is it american or thai?

I personally don't think it came from china, but I do think the burma theory is viable. Either way, the bottom line is that we don't know. We do know, however that thailand was not the first asian country to be populated, meaning that they got there from somewhere, no? Given that, it is also possible that the art - or at least the ones that influenced it - came with them from that same place.

These days, sure it is distinctly thai and will have a thai aura - it's been in thailand for how long now? When you do karate, it doesn't feel chinese, but you can't deny that it came to them from okinawa via china...

what about "death pushups"?

basically where u stand up, fall straight down, back straight etc, catch urself in hte bottom of a pushup position, and hten push up...ie u catch urself with ur hands with ur body just off the ground

and combinations of that, where u do a clap pushup right after etc...

i always thought those were a bad idea, but soem people like them

these are bad.

also, what about egyptian style, and triangle/diamond?

diamonds are good - shifts focus to the triceps. the same applies as with normal pushups though - too many can lead to stress injuries. What is egyptian style?

{quote]then ofc there is superman and clap ones

anyone know if these are bad? i think at least a couple would be

there are also t pushups... there are several variations of pushups.

I train / teach 2-3 hours per day, 6 days per week, soon to be 7.

I did not mean to suggest that a broken hand was a guaranteed result of a fist fight. I figured everyone on this board is intelligent enough to know that was not what I was stating or implying. But I can understand why some individuals may have gotten that impression from my prior post. So I will clarify.

I wasn't suggesting that you were. it was just a general rant triggered by your post.

I would also like to state that I liked Elbows and Knees post about striking with hard weapons against soft targets and soft against hard targets. It's a simple and logical principle. However, during a rapid exchange of blows, it does not seem easy to switch from open to closed handed strikes (and back to open hand) in response to specific targets that present themselves in "milliseconds". I won't say that it cannot be done or done well. Like anything I'm sure you have to practice, but to me, it seems much easier to stick with one and blast the opponent. Just my opinion.

I agree with that as well. I do however believe that there is truth to the maxim. if I switch to anything, it's to my namesake - elbows and knees - for various reasons.

\Works fine. For what I was taught it's pretty much the same, we don't really change much because we don't do anything especially impractical. (No jumping, no ballistic-commitment flips, no turning our back, all attacks at effective range)

you guys don't do Meia-lua, au and macaco? I know you don't turn your back in au, but still...

pretty much what daedalus said. the avg boxer would maul the avg TMA.

Daedalus,

I'm not trying to offend you, though it is apparent that I did with my prior post. From your response I get the impression that your entire view of what works in a fight is based on NHB tournaments. Unfortunately, while the techniques in those bouts are worth examining, you still have to remember that you are watching a sporting event. I've broken my hand twice in real encounters and have also had a few individuals injure their hands on my skull. Once an entire weapon is put out of commission it changes the course of a fight real quick. As a result I strike primarily with open hands now.

Just think about why properly wrapping and gloving up are important in boxing, muay Thai, and NHB bouts. If you honestly want to know the answer and understand its implications to real combat, then you'll have your answer. But if you want to insist that closed fist punching is the best strike to deliver in a fight in all situations, then be my guest. It's your fist, not mine. But the guys on this post with actual fighting experience know what I say is true.

I currently have a second job as a bouncer in a popular downtown club. previously, I've worked security for other companies. I've never seen and serious hand injuries during a fight. That said, I know that they occur, but it's like people automatically assume that if you punch a hard object your hand will break, and that is not the case. I do agree with the old maxim I posted earlier - hard to soft and soft to hard - but hard to hard guys are not guaranteed a hand break by any means.

it is a very effective strike- dont u wonder why it has been used for so long,this strike?

I've always hated it when people try to make that argument... the butterfly kick has been around too - how effective is it? The tornado kick is still around. People still teach various double punches... Longevity is not a means of proving effectiveness. It only says that people wanted to keep these techniques around.

basically, it's the wing chun system as taught by emin bozteppe. As far as I know, none ot the WC systems do any real grappling, other than what some of them refer to as "anti grappling". I have a friend who has spent several years in WT, and he doesn't grapple at all.

The Wing Chun style practiced by me has grappling and ground fighting, praciticed by the more advanced level students, using, of course Wing Chun principles and concepts.

Do you have some footage of that or a link or something? I'd like to see it.

i have taken both capoeira angola and the other more showy form and i do not consider it very effective.

the more "showy" form is regional. They are actually more competitive than the angola guys - regional guys IME really like to mix it up.

i know that it is done diffrently in a real fight but as of yet i have not yet met a capoeiraista i have not been able to out strike or out grapple once again i mean no offense to the style as it is very pretty to watch and im shure that an experienced capoeiraista could defend himself but there are other more efficient styles that serve the self defense better.

I have met one I can't out grapple - but he is also a bjj purple under de la riva. I can outstrike most of the ones I've met if I can get in my range - and that is the problem. They are very evasive and very deceptive. That is where their main strength is. Many of the techniques are circular, so when you crash forward, you can jam them, but they will immediately find another angle.

I can't figure out how it can be effective in streetfight however. But one wrote that Capoiera in a fighting situation is much different from the dancing that we see. That it's very effective in a streetfight too. But I do not personally know anything about this. I just write what I have read.

because you haven't really seen it. All you have seen is the play in the roda most likely, and yes, it looks danceish. I started training capoeira recently and it's got a lot of infighting - elbows, knees, headbutts and takedowns. The core techniques are the infighting, the cartwheel, roundhouse and the inside and outside crescent kicks. The other stuff from what I am told is part of the system, but may or may not be used by most capoeirista.

your bodyfat really isn't that low... isn't avg for males considered 12-15%? I remember reading that in order for them to be most visible, you need to be 10% or less. Also, they may not be developed enough to show through. I know people with well over 10% who have visible abs - perhaps they work them harder...

pushups are endurance exercises, so your friend is right in that they will not make you any stronger beyond a certain point.

Also, they can be bad for you when done too much. it's not uncommon for a person to suffer repetitive stress injuries from them.

That said, pushups are beneficial and will do you more good than harm. Just do them properly.