Jiffy

Yeah, I completely agree. While we have graded people to black belt, we don't do it light-heartedly.

Think of the final position of shuto - the blocking arm partially extended and hand held palm down. This forms an upside down triangle. The base (upside-down) base forms a horizontal line from shoulder to hand, and the elbow is the vertex. If you keep the hand at shoulder height (so the base line is always horizontal) you can lengthen or shorten the shuto by moving the hand along that horizontal line - the internal elbow angle will increase/decrease as you do so. What I'm suggesting is that you do a 'long' shuto. The horizontal base line will be quite long, rather longer than the length of your own forearm in fact. If you block the incoming elbow with that shuto then, in order for the person's fist to come round and hit you anyway, their forearm must be longer than your shoulder/hand baseline. So as long as keep that shoulder/hand baseline quite long their fist cannot hit you. Does that explain it any better? Another way to think about it, if I turned my hand palm-up rather than palm-down the movement would feel like I'm throwing a frisbee. Mike yep, makes sence now.

Not really. While people have commented that it's the one thing they love the most, it hasn't really meant that we get more students. Partly because new students wouldn't know the difference. It's only at a higher level they start to appreciate it.

I agree, from a competition perspective, a fantastic Kata! Hence why he is the champion. As to it's practical use, I'm not quite so convinced. Many moves were exadurated for the point of flashy and fast movements, but the actual speed along the practical line of travel was slow. Not to say that it wouldn't be effective, but just saying the the focus was more on flashy than simple and effective. All in all, a competition Kata.... and a fantastic one at that.

That sounds fair to me. So many people are too concenred with the tradition of the art that they are not prepared to expirment. Conversly, there are just as many that modify the kata so much that they loose it's point and it's tradition. Learn to experiement with Kata without compramising it's integrity.

Sounds like a good principle to me!

I'm gonna disagree. I personally think that getting instruction from someone over a video source is better than no instruction at all. Obviously there will be disadvantages to training in a class environment, but if a class environment is not available, I rekon this is the next best thing. Go for it.

I have a question.... If you are grading in two weeks, shouldn't you already be familiar with everything that's in your grading? Generally speaking, the last few weeks, you should just be polishing off little details...

This is a topic I was talking about in class on Friday. In Self Defence, the only objective is to defend yourself. If you then continue once the threat has been stopped, you are now the agressor. Not only will you have gone too far, but you will no longer be using Martial Arts.

If you show the exact same respect to your instructor that you show to "any other person" then you should probably reevaluate your outlook on your instructor and his/her rank. When you properly address your instructor, you are honoring the art that you study as well. I agree with this...... inside the dojo.

This is exactly why in Hapkido we train with shoes on and with T-Shirts. We tried this once in our Karate class a couple of months ago and it completely threw them off, particularly the shoes.

Defanging the snake??

DO NOT do that!! Might work on a straight punch, but definately not a swinging punch!! If you do that, the elbow stops, but the fist keeps going, ultimately stopping when it contacts your head. If you want stop a punch coming in this manner, you need to block below the elbow. A shuto lower down the arm, perhaps to the radial nerve might be a better option. I suspect you misunderstand me Jiffy. Although I said shuto I did not imply the 'traditional' 45/45 degree angles of the upper and lower arm. This would indeed, as you say, get you clocked in the head. But if the angle at your own elbow is much shallower (lets say 140 rather than 90 degrees) the block will work just fine. Blocking this way has several strong points: 1. If you catch their elbow crease with your distal ulna and your elbow angle correct their punch cannot possibly swing round and hit you. All you need to do is to make sure that the distance from your distal ulna to your head is longer than the length of a forearm and a fist. Even on wildy divergently sized individuals the length of the forearm is not terribly different (so your elbow angle will require little adjustment). 2. If you miss the elbow crease slightly, because of its shape your forearm will tend to be 'funnelled' in to the elbow crease anyway, then it catches there (ie. there is no tendency for your block to slide either up or down the arm). Catch the arm anywhere else and there is a rather greater possibility of your block sliding along the arm inappropriately. That said, I'm not totally averse to catch the incoming bicep, which has an impressive effect, but the elbow crease is safer. 3. It isn't really a block, you're just striking the incoming limb. The harder the attacker punches the more it hurts him, the less inclined he is to want to punch you with that arm again. IMO this is a far safer option than trying to block the forearm and does much more to disrupt the attack rather than just parrying one incoming blow. As for catching the incoming radial nerve, well that can be fun, but not something I'd want to rely on in the heat of battle. Mike Sorry, still don't understand what you're getting at... As for the radial nerve, I agree. Not something I would aim at as such, but any block in this area will likely affect that nerve cluster as it is quite large and exposed.

Miller, thanks for that, I should have clarified better. As miller said, at this level, you probably won't have the level of understanding required to form a good analysis of the bunkai yourself. Your instructor will help you with this. It will vary from instructor to instructor though, and at the higher level, student to student.

It seems that most of you are of the same opinion of what I have been doing with my students for a little while. I train my students in the fundamental and high quality basics of Shotokan, but as they progress, the principles and freedom of non-stylises Karate-Jutsu is taught and they begin to understand the why, not just the how.

It seems that most of you are of the same opinion of what I have been doing with my students for a little while. I train my students in the fundamental and high quality basics of Shotokan, but as they progress, the principles and freedom of non-stylises Karate-Jutsu is taught and they begin to understand the why, not just the how.

I'm not sure about what it's like in Japan, but as far as I'm concerned, that's disgraceful. The Machado's have a saying "Leave your ego at the door. This is a place of learning". I try to remember that with all training.

Miller, you have raised some good points. You seem to be thinking exactly the way I thought for nearly twenty years, up until a few months ago that is. I agree with what you are saying, but I don't. You mentioned the key point here... most people don't train long enough. The problem is, most teachers of Shotokan have limited knowledge and there lies it's demise. It's a case of too little, too late. Also, I think we forget something often. Like I said, I too learned the "simple" shotokan and I am now searching for more detailed answer, but these are not strictly Shotokan. They can be traced to shotokan because they appear from styles such as Shorin-Ryu and Shorei-Ryu (the styles Funakoshi trained in and taught before the creation of Shotokan), but they are not "Shotokan". The literal translation for "Shotokan" is "The house of pine waves". "Pine Waves" was Funakoshi's pen-name and as such, Shotokan means nothing more than "Funakoshi's Place". In 1922 Funakoshi wrote a book called RyuKyu Kempo Karate (I think it was called), which essentially means Okinawan Karate. Later when that was destroyed, he published another one in 1925 called Rentan Goshin Karate-Jutsu. Both of these pictured Karate from Shorin-Ryu and Shorei-Ryu before Funakoshi made modifications to what he originally just called Karate (note, no style name). Through the period of 1925-1935, Funakoshi modified his Karate. He took out many of the techniques that are considered in this thread as "More Okinawan" and added techniques that were more athletic. Through his own admission, Funkoshi considerably modified the Karate he learned. In 1935 he published a book called Karate-Do Kyohan (Master Text of Karate). This included all the changes he had made to his style. This seperated his style from many of the other styles and thus became the creation of Funakoshi's style. From then on, he only taught his style (for various reasons including just being more palatable to the Japanese people). If we consider what I was saying about the meaning of Shotokan, by definition, Shotokan is what Funakoshi taught from 1935 onwards. These more advanced techniques you talk of were not part of this. So to say that they are Shotokan is not true. They are indeed part of the ancestory of Shotokan in that they are included in Shorin and Shorei Ryu styles, but they are not included in Funakoshi's teachings from the time he formed his own style.... later named as Shotokan.

In my experience, not many. I have come across many MMA with Cauliflower ear, but not in Judo or Wrestling. This is a Martial Arts forum. Sure it's called Karate Forums, but a quick look at all the different topics will quickly clarify the issue. As previously mentioned, the difference between a contact fighter and a point fighter is not their level of skill but their intended purpose for the encounter.

DO NOT do that!! Might work on a straight punch, but definately not a swinging punch!! If you do that, the elbow stops, but the fist keeps going, ultimately stopping when it contacts your head. If you want stop a punch coming in this manner, you need to block below the elbow. A shuto lower down the arm, perhaps to the radial nerve might be a better option. Another option would be an outurned Uchi-Uke (like a normal uchi-uke, but with the fingers facing away from you. This is a normal outward block for Chinese Kempo, but not Japanese Karate. It's basically a Shuto with the fist closed). If they are throwing a right punch for example, another option would be to parry with the right (preventing the hit in the head mentioned before) and Shuto into the bicep with the left. You could also turn into it with a normal Soto-Uke. Another option would be to drop lower than the punch, duck under it while passing it safely over the head with a left Soto-Uke. Another option would be to step to Angle 1 (for those not familiar with the angle system I use, that's 45 degrees right of the centre-forward) and block with either a left Shuto or extended Uchi-Uke. If you don't want the "Traditional Blocks" you could also slip in by stepping in and jamming the arm. This is done by basically performing a left Age-Empi (rising elbow). If you step in enough, their fist will extend past you and the centre arm (much less powerful) will colide with your arm which is protecting your head. You are then in range to counter with a right Mawashi-Empi (roundhouse elbow). As an added bonus, when you do the first one, your elbow can colide with the nerve cluster in the armpit or infront of the shoulder joint.

And hence the beauty of Karate-Do (as opposed to Karate-Jutsu)

24fightingchickens, first let me clarify something... I love Shotokan. I have been doing Shotokan (among other styles) for just under 20 years and I do believe it to be quite effective. When I started reading your post, the first thing that came to my mind was "this guy is an idiot, he doesn't know what he's talking about, I'm gonna fire one back". The more I read your post however, the more I realised that was not the case. It's not that you are wrong, it's just that you were willing to say the truth, which we all know is contrary to popular belief. I too have found myself coming to the same conclusions you have lately, but with a certain fear of the future and frustration over wasted years. Having said that, we are a sum of our past events and for that I should be thankful for my study in Shotokan. I have however found that through study of other various styles, I am able to make up what I consider to be the lost parts of Shotokan and as such, I believe I can put back into my students training that which was never given to me. Does that mean that I am no longer teaching Shotokan? I don't think so. I give my students the same curriculum that was given to me (quite similar to that of the Tokyo people you talk about), and this is what they are graded on, but the contents of my classes often goes much deeper than those and goes on to explain the parts that are no obvious (or in the view of some people, not Shotokan). This leads me to a cross road in my teaching... Do I study another Karate style more in full and mix the two, creating another one of those "mixed made-up" styles or do I continue with what I'm doing, stick to the Shotokan syllabus but try to add back some of the traditional Ryukyu-Kempo teachings? I think for me personally, I will continue to do the latter, but I have no doubt that I may become somewhat like yourself, but for Australia.... the controversial and outspoken Shotokan person.

The timing is generally dictated by the bunkai. Think of what the combinations of self defence would be and group each confrontation together, with a pause between them. To some degree, the timing will vary because the interpretations of the Kata will vary.

Generally speaking, I wouldn't have thought so either.

KarateK, what happened?