Tim Greer

Very good pages (I read part I and II, both), and this man basically said what my thoughts are, much more clearly than I've ever been able to convey. Of course, I also believe some of it could have been worded better, but this man is also not a native English speaker/writer either. Very good points and statements though, in my opinion. These points help demonstrate why some arts are questioned so much, when it comes down to the fact that most people asking, seeing or doing them, aren't really even being truly trained in them. Of course, that problem is the most prevelant and is far reaching and is the biggest problem in every single art/style taught.

Yeah, but, "SCARS" just sounds so cool. Oh, wait... Would you want to study a martial art (allegedly) that is named after a bad outcome of a fight? How about "Not A Scratch Jitsu"?

Well, I'm off to do some intense training for the next month, two months, maybe more and I'll not be around to contribute my long rants much anymore, if at all. I just thought a last post about something that's of interest to any martial artist and maybe have some people share some ideas to help themselves and other's develop greater speed and strength techniques. Other than weights, cardiovascular exercise, etc. what type of things do people do to gain greater speed, endurance and strength? Also, for what part of the body, for what action and what are the benefits? An example, one of many I will suggest, is training with Mou Sou techniques, sticking hands, etc. Also, of course, stretching, sparring, really hitting a target or heavy bag, speed bag, etc. is helpful and fun. Different aspects of training I notice a lot of people over look, is how tired they are when training. People will be tired, not feeling well, etc. and train... and this can cause you to be sloppy if you do that too much. Some people get too tensed up and therefore become distracted. What times of the day, more than other's, do you practice? I'll start by saying, be sure to properly warm up and stretch, but we all know this! Of course, before practicing, it's best to not exert yourself with doing anything such as sex, or do anything that's bad for the body, including drugs, drinking alcohol or smoking. These can make a big difference. Also, don't practice on am empty stomach, or a completely full stomach either. Another thing, don't be stupid and chew gum, tobacco or food or anything else that will be in your mouth an interrupt your breathing. This includes drinking water. If you are huffing and thirsty, let your body catch up first, don't chug down water while you're huffing, this will interrupt your breathing and can cause damage to your lungs. Just sip some, wet your throat until you stop huffing. I see people make that mistake a lot. Remember to take off anything that will interfere, annoy, distract you or cause injury to others while sparring, such as rings and watches. I find myself asking people to take jewelry all the time. Also, don't just sit down or lay down if you're huffing from exertion. Let your body cool down at the right pace. If you're doing anything that involves twisting or any waist power, which includes a lot of things, be sure to wear a belt (the original purpose of them!), fairly tightly around your waist to prevent any internal jolting and injury to your organs. Also, don't hit or do any technique with too much force, until you have it down, as this will too reduce injury when putting too much force into an action that you're not familiar enough with. Now, onto techniques, general one's anyway, that I practice or suggest: I try and practice techniques, not only in whole, but parts of my body, individually, combined and in whole as well. Such things as, hand techniques. Strengthening and gaining speed, punching, grabbing, etc. Of course, a good way is to practice hand techniques on a bag, which helps improve speed, accuracy, power and balance. These are important for any technique, any part of your body and any form or action, partly and entirely. Working on different areas individually can sometimes and usually does greatly improve all these things. The hands and fingers are very important to work, themselves. Obviously this improves things to do with blocks, grabs, hooking, locking, clasping, Chin Na techniques, and more. Speed and power are important there as well. Things you can do: Get a heavy or semi heavy object, like a rock, a brick, whatever. The idea is to develop power in grasping. You drop and catch this object, obviously before it hits the ground and alternate with reaching techniques. Such as, drop it, don't bend or lean and grab it. Do the same, but drop down to catch it, such as if you were evading, ducking or doing a sweep or other technique lower down. Also, try putting in some move(s) after dropping it and still catching it before it hits the ground. To say, drop it, throw your hands up, to the side, forward, whatever, and catch it. Try some strikes, maybe some kicks after it's dropped and catch it. Often, people try to see how many times they can clap and try to build it up to 2, 3 or 4 times from the time the object is dropped, to the time it's caught. As you improve, the weight of the object can be greater. Pushups never fail to improve the strength of the fingers and hands. Pushups on the finger tips, of course. Again, try to pop yourself up, see how many times you can clap. You can do the same thing, alternatively, with laying on your back and side, pushing yourself up with your hands, fingers or even elbows and do the same. You can also try what's known as empty air techniques to help build grasping power. The idea is to basically, have your hands in different positions, to your side, for example. You then execute a reasonable block (imagine someone punching at you), you then take your fingers, point them up, down or sideways, as if hooking and/or grasping the blocked hand and slowly do this with as much power can you can and grasp as tightly as you can and return the hand to the original position or next position. Repeat with the other hand. You can really feel this in your hands and how it's improving your grasping power. The idea, of course, is to get used to blocking and then grasping the attacker's punching arm you just blocked -- in which you'll train to do all sorts of nifty things with. You can also strike out with one or both hands facing forward, make a circle clockwise (mirrored of the other hand), having them come in and cross and clench them hard (your forearm and hands should be at about 90 degrees in the angle). You force your hands open and closed, slowly, with as much power as you can get. The idea is strength and speed and by repeating this, you should try for about 180 fists in about 30 seconds. Also, wrists, arms and shoulders are important. You want to get used to acting strong and fast to grabs to your opponent to better control them. This also complements the power and speed you gain in the hands and fingers. One technique, is to get a long bar, rod, stick, broom handle, whatever, hold it at about the center (or at the center) and move it up and down while keeping your arm stationary, or as much as it can be. Also, try twisting it, while remaining stationary. Try and work your way to the end of the rod and be able to hold it on one end and do these same techniques. This will increase the difficulty. Of course, the larger the gauge and heavier the rod, the better or different the results will be. You can and should also try some techniques where you have a partner, using one or two rods, bamboo or whatever, some type of pole(s), which can help you build up your wrists and arms. You sort of swing and twist the rods, giving more tension to the other person's end and they do to you as well. A twisting tug-of-war, if you will. You can do this while turning, facing them, from the side or behind, adding tension, almost trying to twist it out of their hands, without any more effort than twisting the rods and/or your body. Of course, you can also try pole climbing, rope climbing and various exercises with weights and weight bars (with and without weights). There's too many of those to try and cover. Onto Mou Sou (rubbing hands, some call it). This is not only to help build speed and grasping and whatnot, but it helps you get a "feel" for what the other person will do, given your arms and hands are met, be it by a block, grab, or whatever, so you can feel what they are going to do, where their hands or arms, etc. are going to go and act and counter accordingly and quickly, with speed and strength. This, if worked on and developed properly, can greatly increase your speed and dexterity and give you a great advantage. Of course, many martial arts styles teach some type of this technique and base a lot of things off of it. Anyway, here's some cool things; You face your opponent (yes, you need another person, although there are ways to practice this on your own), have your right leg facing forward. One person puts their arm out, hand/fingers pointing up, hooking (sort of) and the other puts his/her arm on top of theirs (their left, for example, on top of their opponents' right), crossing it, hooking down (fingers pointed down). Now, the person with their fingers pointed up, tries to move over top of the person's arm/hand on top, grasping it and pull them towards them. The other person, tries to get out of that grasp and overtake the other person's, grasp them and pull them towards them. Back and forth, repeating. You get power and you get a feel for what someone's going to do and you will be quicker than the other person. One person tries to get their wrist unhooked, while the other tried to hook them. What you do, is you jerk the hooked arm to you, using your waist power. Once you pull them back to you, you can successfully hook their wrist. However, once that's done, the other person turns their hand up and does what the other just did and you repeat. Do this as fast and quickly as possible, without stopping. If done properly, you can really feel it applied and when you apply it on someone else. This builds up a lot of speed, because each person is consistently attempting to break free to maintain the lock. You can practice this yourself, by grabbing your right wrist with your left hand, by putting your right hand up, palm of hand facing you, arm pointing straight up, bring your left hand in front of it with your left hand's elbow facing out to the left and up at about 75 degrees. Put your left hand over top of the right hand's wrist with your thumb over top and the fingers underneath. Then turn your left hand under while moving against the right arm/wrist and grab over top, fully and firmly. Keep the resistance with both wrists and hands. Once you do that, move your right hand under the left hand's wrist and grab over top. Repeat this with resistance while pulling down and to you and the other out and pointing up. I'm not very confident that this is making much sense. In fact, this is something that people are almost certainly going to have to have applied and physically shown to them, if they aren't familiar with this particular technique, let alone any along these lines -- but I'm trying. Speaking of, there's some good stability techniques I'd like to cover, but these would be very difficult to try and explain and I feel that I'd failed to explain the above well enough in text as it is. Anyway, lots of hand drills should be practices for grabs, pulling, punching, pushing, throwing, thrusting, blocking, holding, lifting, twisting, pressing, etc. Body movements are important as well, definitely. Don't forget stepping, strategies, even your eyes. Your fingers, shoulders, wrists, legs, knee's, etc. Also practice being thrown, practice falling, anything that you can take advantage by being used to by training and preparing, that will and can happen to you in a fight. To build the wrists and forearms, you can get a bar, tie a rope to it and put weight on the end. You basically turn/twist the bar, slowly, holding your arms straight out at shoulder height, and wind and unwind the bar to raise and lower the weights. You can do the same, having your arm to the side, with one single arm, a shorter bar, same technique. Another thing you can do, is toss a sand bag. You throw it up, using different moves to come around and grab it again and toss it back up, and repeat. This adds resistance to techniques and moves, forms, etc. You can toss it around your back, between your legs, to the side, above, etc. And you can also do this and other exercises with another person. Obviously adding weight to moves and exercises adds the resistance to improve strength and speed. Carrying more weight when doing things that involve balance can also benefit you. Also, balancing, and doing moves and sparring, is very beneficial. A cool thing too, is post training, and I mean with a post, as in a pole. You can practice things such as striking with the inside of your forearms, which is useful for blocking kicks, striking with the palms, again, for blocking, and striking, pushing, etc. Same with elbows, and definitely great for hooking techniques, wrapping around, pushing, evading, etc. It will get you very used to getting out of the way and in close techniques to lock and throw people, as well as push them out of the way, or yourself and watch them fly by into your line of attack. Other things, would include crouching and fighting low, doing various techniques, rather than just standing or whatever. Definitely practice timing, distance, angles, get ready and able to attack, counter or evade, given any position, be it you are there or put there or pushed, thrown off balance, of knocked to there or that position. Get used to trapping techniques, close in and all sides, close and far. Get a perspective. Get used to weapons, locks and all of it. I guess as I've been writing this, I find it near impossible to explain or give any examples, suggestions, tips or anything on any type of techniques in particular, let alone to try and explain how they are done and definitely to explain why. Sorry about that, I guess this is all obvious stuff and I have so much I'd like to share and explain, but it's so difficult without being there in person. There's simply too much to try and explain or cover anyway, but I was wondering what other's do, if they are able to explain and outline the techniques, which I've obviously failed to do. Definitely explore different things, even if it's of a style you don't like, because it can have some beneficial exercises, training or theories that might open up some new ideas to build speed, strength and accuracy. Well, speaking of, I'm going to go and have some fun now. I'm going to basically be in hiatus training pretty intensely for a few months. I can only talk about stuff for so long, before I have to bury myself in it. So, have a good time everyone, I'll be gone and busy. If anyone gets near Northern California and wants to get together and train or spar, definitely get in touch with me. Thanks.

Right, if anything is allowed in the Olympics, it will be so watered down and worthless to have, it wouldn't serve a purpose. Sports are one thing, but when you turn fighting into a sport, it takes too much out of the aspect in fighting, to be able to even remotely resemble fighting aspects, it comes down to speed, taging, grabbing and throws. It wouldn't be something I'd be interested in. Kickboxing, Boxing and other types of "sports events/fighting" are bad enough, but Boxing is better, in my opinion. Now, people, to be clear, I'm talking about rules, limitations and holding back, as in a sport aspect, not any art. It wouldn't be a good idea and would simply be pointless, for any style of martial art, unless you're talking about wrestling, boxing and kickboxing. The rest can't be used, or they'll look and be ridiculous. Sports, are sports, fighting is fighting and can not be a real sport, Boxing is at it's highest limit, they simply won't allow anything more brutal than that, no way. There's a big difference between a fight and a sport, and even if sport fighting can be effective to use in a real fight, they don't come close to arts that are for real fighting. Of course, real fighting aspects might not interest some people and they'd rather at least see the more harmless techniques used in sport, than see real techniques being used in a real fight between two people. I personally don't like watching sports, I'm the type that wants to be involved and do it, especially if it will give me a skill or knowledge to improve my life or my preservation of life -- I can't care less about sports aspects, personally, but that's because of my opinions, so the sports aspects to me, is just a joke and I find it annoying, other than for fun (which is fine to be involved in too, but only for fun and that has it's limitations). It all depends on what you want to do. However, what I'm getting at here, is that I think something like the style you mentioned, would be a bad idea to be in the Olympics, just as it would be to have people shooting at each other. Some things would have to be so watered down, that it would take the entire point out of it and it's functionality, to make it even be the event you would want to be witnessing. It would be something else, not MT, so it's not possible for it to be MT, so MT will never be an event, nor will any other art that people have to hold back on or only use select techiniques. So, therefore, no real art will ever be allowed, unless they change it so much, that it's not the real art -- unless all that art in question ever really is, is for sport. (Which would be suitable and fitting, but I would fail to see the point, since it's there to prove who's a superior fighter (not even just the style), and they couldn't really or realistically fight). So, it's Boxing or nothing in sport, the rest is ridiculous, watered down, pointless fluff that has assumed the name of a once real art. _________________ Regards, Tim Greer | xanth@digital-star.com | Phone: 530-222-7244 Server/System administration, programming, security, consulting. Kung Fu, Modern Arnis, TaiJutsu, and so on and on and on and... This Message was edited by: Tim Greer on Jul 14, 2001 2:39am

Definitely not Enter the Dragon, but it's better than flying around. I understand and appreciate the fact that movies are there mostly to give us that unrealistic aspect to entertain us. Still though, it wouldn't be a challange to have a good movie, with a good plot, and have realistic fighting. That's one thing I like about Jackie Chan movies, is his stunts and the unrealistic aspects, yet a lot of the things they put into his movies, is where he'll be fighting, be a goof, make mistakes, get hit, get hurt. It's a nice break from completely invincible or ridiculous moves no one would use, assuming it's supposed to be serious. Also, I actually was unfortunate enough to be flipping through the channels (I do this often late at night when taking a break from work and training) and saw a Bruce Lee marithon. I missed all the Lee movies, but did see Circle of Iron, as I heard it was a movie Lee wrote the script for shortly before his death. Well, that really milked his name to get that piece of crap to be produced, or they had the complete wrong idea -- or Bruce just had a really bad idea. Either way, that movie was simply horrible. I felt like I was the guy in A Clockwork Orange with my eyes pried open with loud classical music, being exposed to horrible things! Okay, maybe not that bad, but you get the point. _________________ Regards, Tim Greer | xanth@digital-star.com | Phone: 530-222-7244 Server/System administration, programming, security, consulting. Kung Fu, Modern Arnis, TaiJutsu, and so on and on and on and... This Message was edited by: Tim Greer on Jul 14, 2001 2:24am

True. And, look at it this way. Younger people might have more energy and flexibility and stamina over older people, but 29 is not old. You are certainly able to build your body, be healthier and more fit, stronger, have more endurance, stamina, gain speed, flexibility, just as much as you could at a young age. Simply, it just takes a little more time (okay, maybe a lot for some people that haven't been into certain things for a while, if ever) to break down those barriers that might hold you back. However, you don't need to start younger to be able to deal with and endure pain tolerances, skills and knowledge, nor power, strength and all the other good things that come with it. If anyone tells you otherwise, it's BS -- especially since you're only 29. 29 isn't too old for anything on a physical level, that's ridiculous.

As I was flipping through the channel's on my TV the other day, that movie was under review by Ebert and Reoper. They agreed that if you're out for action, it's okay, but commented that it's the same boring plot, generic fight sequences where all the attackers "wait their turn" to attack the hero (Jet Li) and the same ol', some ol'. I'm sure it's okay if you just lkike it for the action and the nifty moves and don't really care how unrealistic it is -- because, what movie is? Anyway, I just wanted to say that they were mentioning a very good (the best) martial arts movie (I'm not sure how they make their judgments though), and everyone seems to agree (the critics) that it's the best one ever made. I don't, however, recall the name of the movie now and I don't think I really caught the name in time when they said it anyway. I'm not sure I've ever heard of the movie they mentioned, but I'm interested to know. Speaking of, has anyone ever seen a martial arts movie with realistic fighting? I'd be interested in seeing one of those, if they exist.

sybershack, it's too difficult to guess. You might live in a rural area and have something close, sort of close or not close at all. The question would be, where do you live and how far and how often are you possibly willing to travel?

See, I learn more every day. I'm going to sit here and ponder new, possibly vular names to refer to my wife as and see what she thinks. *LOL*

I don't recall ever calling a woman or girl a "chick" in my life. I also don't refer to them as "broads" either. Then again, I don't refer to my wife as my "old lady" either. It just seems too "biker" like or trailer-park-ish to me. Now, calling someone "meat" is something else. Heh, heh. I guess it's all how you're raised, and even though it's not a big deal for most people, I do think it doesn't sound quite right. _________________ Regards, Tim Greer | xanth@digital-star.com | Phone: 530-222-7244 Server/System administration, programming, security, consulting. Kung Fu, Modern Arnis, TaiJutsu, and so on and on and on and... This Message was edited by: Tim Greer on Jul 12, 2001 11:35pm

Heh, not even close, my friend. I'm pretty much infamous for being a typing addict in some of the news groups, some chat rooms and some other forums. In fact, one of the moderators literally changed my posting level title from "Webhsoting Guru" to "Typing Addict". When they set a 10,000 character limit on the posts, my life almost ended. Actually, I type a lot, and as you can see, I always have a lot to say and I'm quite opinionated. I just start typing and don't stop until I run out of things to say, or engery. Actually, all joking aside, I do type a lot, about a lot of things, but I can type pretty quickly. If I actually had anything profound or interesting to say for once, I could probably write a few novels. Actually, I just looked at the size of that post again, and it is pretty big, isn't it? I admit I have a problem, and that's the first step.

Well, I suppose if you're in a mood and looking for a fight, or excuse to fight, you can always be on the lookout of any victims of any crimes in the action and get involved... or just be a mean cop.

Ken, out of curiosity, how much did you weigh them and how much do you weigh now?

I think a bullet could move faster than you could run. Of course, the option of running, would depend on the situation.. somtimes it's a better idea to try and remain calm if a gun is pulled on you, or even try to take it away. Running is a viable option though. Personally, if I wasn't alone, no matter how many people were involved and against me, I would do what I could to get the other person out of the situation and probably end up having to at least get involved in a short or long term fight while the other person fled. That's to say, if there's 20 people that have suddenly surrounded myself and my wife, I would take her with me off to the side while I broke out of one side of this circle of people and have her get the hell out of there while I keep as many as I can busy. That wouldn't be a good option, but it would be one of a few that I would probably have at the time. Staying in a street fight, if you have any other choice, is obviously a bad idea. Call it pride???? Maybe ego, maybe just being a victim of blind fury, would probably be more accurate. If you can get out of there, get out of there. If you are seriously pissed off and want to do damage to these people, assuming no one has any weapon's and it's an easy win for you and you always leave yourself the option of getting out of there, then I think that's a reasonable action, just as long as you aren't careless, going overboard or adding risk to the situation or someone else (as in, a person that was with you). Think smart and make your priority the other person and their safety, and be stupid when you're by yourself. I can't say that I've ever had to flee, or even tried to when I had the chance, even when I was surrounded, so I can truly say I've been too brave to have any sense about it...and lucky me for the outcomes... it could have gone in any direction. Then again, I'm not sure that running would have really done much good anyway in those situations -- and I am sure I would have avoided it if I had the chance to, so maybe I'm not a complete nut.

I'm pretty certain that size does indeed matter too. After all, let's say you are just remotely skilled, if any at all, and you run across a midget (choose the style(s) this midget would be an expert in) and I'd bet any of us that participate in this forum would have no problems winning. Okay, so let's go with someone that's very small.. say, a 5 foot tall man that weighs 60 pounds, fights a 6 foot, 5 inch tall man that weighs 300 pounds. I know who I'd have my money on. Granted, it's possible the 5 foot tall man could defeat the other, but as any true martial artist will tell you -- be realistic, your chances are very, very slim, even with a lot of skill... you better go for a quick kick or strike to the groin or something and run like hell! Basically, that's the general theory. The chances aren't going to be very good, if at all. Take that for what you like, but some people just aren't built to defend themselves well in a physical manner and it would be _very_ rare for that variable to change, unless someone was pretty lucky.

I agree. The only way to know, if to be in the situation and use it. However, even then, would most techniques be needed in almost any real fight anyway? The answer is usually no. It's just very difficult to say. Maybe some of us are "lucky" enough to have been attacked enough times to know? Heh. I know what you're saying. I've seen it myself. People come into a ring and fight in some event and lose, and claim all sorts of things. Sometimes it might be true, but most of the time it's likely to be complete BS excuses. However, if it were true, what are they truly entering into an event that they aren't able to really use these techniques anyway, if it results in a likely loss for them? So, it makes you wonder. Furthermore, on another note about this, I have to also make mention, that almost every single event I've seen someone fight in, claiming their style didn't work because it was too violent or deadly, _NEVER_ ever appeared to even know the style they claimed. I give an example of many styles of people that claim to know different styles of Kung Fu, for example, and these fools obviously didn't know anything about the style they claimed. So, it's difficult to say. In my opinion, no matter what style, it usually still comes down to the fighter anyway. Most anyone that's skillful and intelligent enough, will come out the victor, no matter what style they took, unless that style was a flat out joke -- and that does happen, as we all have seen. I don't try and guess too much about it, because I only care that my choice of styles work very effectively in a real fight and nothing more. If I get the feeling that the style is lacking after thinking about the fight, I'll research it and see if there's any techniques that would fill in the gaps, and there usually is. Otherwise, another technique from another art will usually suffice. It doesn't really matter anyway, since it's all dynamic and relevant. I've seen enough people train in good styles and fight poorly, to know that it's the person and not the teacher or art. This is true of _any_ style and _any_ school. If you get someone that isn't coordinated, is too intimidated, is always out to impress themselves or others, to show off, or simply be unskilled and even goofy, there's only so much you can do. Unfortunately, some people are liars, or they are simply clueless or even suffer from a big ego and will enter into an event and make the style look poor. People need to take that into account. Any goofball can make any style look stupid and any goofball can make up any excuse. Surely, some styles, at least in my opinion, are completely ridiculous, useless and fluff, but I've seen a lot of styles made fun of or spoken down about, when they are truly effective, because people BS, lie, or for any number of other reasons, and make the style look poor. Put it this way, if you didn't get the impression the fighter was bad, you'd not have a bad impression of their style. if the fighter looks bad, then the fighter is probably bad. That may or may not have to do with the style. However, if the fighter is good and the style is what's making them a poor fighter, than that's a contradiction, because a good fighter would recognize they are practicing a poor style. Therefore, no good fighter will realistically be practicing a poor style. Does that make sense? I think it does, if you read it carefully. Until I see someone actually go into an event claiming to know something and actually use techniques from that style they claim to practice (win or lose), then I simply refuse to believe that they even know the style (because they obviously do not) and I can't make a judgment about it due to that. I've seen this too many times and it never fails. Certainly, we can all understand that in a real fight, given the opportunity, a lot of people will go directly and break someone's leg, arm, neck, whatever. I don't pussy around in a fight. I'll do a throat strike (or a push if I don't see any danger anyway), I'll tie them into a knot, smash them to the ground and break whatever is going to cause the most damage. You can't exactly do this in sparring, even though, as it's said, it can get you better prepared and used to the moves, etc. I see it this way, if you don't need to hurt someone or can be any less brutal than doing very major damage to them without concern for their safety in any manner to prevent any amount of damage, then you are superiority skilled than them and you don't have any reason or excuse to fight them at all, since they are no threat. Given that, it's simply impossible to know what works or not, until the time comes. I don't think any set up event will be able to prove anything. If someone's insane enough to want to cause that kind of damage in an event to prove the worth of their style, then they are the type of people that are likely just violent by nature and like to fight and will probably not be easy to beat in a ring anyway, assuming that they are skilled, again going back to them knowing what a good style would be and not wasting time with a poor one anyway. Finally, assume for a moment that you've studied the human body and realize that there are some fairly vulnerable areas that do have a significantly higher risk of causing death to someone, you're not going to try it in a fight without trying it to protect yourself in a situation where you possibly have a real threat, even if you aren't sure if it works. Test that theory out on someone that attacks you, if you truly feel a threat to your life and it's a valid and perhaps only option. But what are the chances of that happening? All I can say, is in regards to a lot of the things people claim must be BS, because people aren't dropping their opponents left and right with deadly techniques in the name of sport or to prove their worth, is that I wouldn't expect it, although I have seen genuine documentation proving some of these things to actually be true. The environment was, of course, controlled, so people could be revived, and this opportunity might not be available in a real attack for you to use, but there is proof there. Moreover, in regards to such things, I've studied the human body, everything from Gray's Anatomy onwards, and these theories do appear to be very sound, based on the principals and the evidence of lesser harm, not to mention the one's that have literally been demonstrated and documented. It's natural to question something you haven't seen, especially of this nature, since in theory, this is something you should know to be able to take someone out if your life is threatened and why study something to use it and find out the hard way that it's all fluff and BS fairy tales? I can't blame anyone and I'm sure there's a lot of BS out there, but there truly and honestly are techniques that have a high risk of killing a man that might not seem realistic due to how they are executed.. it's a reasonable assumption, based on the fact that there's no long term application or great force to a technique, and people assume that there's some BS mystical fairy tale theory behind it and wouldn't waste their time. I can only urge anyone genuinely curious to look into it and seek out documentation, study how those aspects of the body work and how these theories are applied. There's even video documentation with people demonstrating these techniques to prove they are not theory. I know it seems pretty out there and unrealistic, but not all of it is. That's not to say this person really knew anything, or could have even used it if they did, or that they could have hurt you, let alone have killed you. For that matter, even an expert in these techniques (the real one's) might not have had the real opportunity to ever use such techniques on someone that's actually skilled at fighting, which you likely are. Nonetheless, it's certainly very interesting to research and some of these things can surely be applied without concern of death, assuming someone's willing to have it proven of a lesser result -- such as paralysis of an arm, rather than of their heart. Well, you can laugh at that last part if you like.

If anyone hasn't already, be sure to check out any schools that teach real San Shou Kuai Jiao (Chinese fast Wrestling). If you're lucky enough to find a school that really teaches this, you won't be sorry. It's very cool and deals with a lot of styles and techniques for throws and take downs and ground fighting and controlling techniques. Throw in a mix with some Chin Na and you talk about cool!

Someone called me Fabio.. *sob*... If you want to post your picture and you know the URL (web page address) to it, just type it like this: [IMG]http://www.somewhere.com/the/path/to/the/image.gif[/IMG] _________________ Regards, Tim Greer | xanth@digital-star.com | Phone: 530-222-7244 Server/System administration, programming, security, consulting. Kung Fu, Modern Arnis, TaiJutsu, and so on and on and on and... This Message was edited by: Tim Greer on Jul 10, 2001 12:40am

I guess I wasn't clear or specific enough about BJJ and the size of the person, as much as I meant to say (I thought I did?) that in the medium of UFC/NHB. Of course, I also don't assume you were only speaking of BJJ in that manner either as per in a ring. And, of course any real hitting in the ring does give people experience for real street fighting, since in the ring, they are being hit, most certainly. Not many people can take that, no matter what style they study, it's very different, of course. I wouldn't go as far as to say that many of these techniques in BJJ were built off of to always be a better system, or more updated and the other techniques being out of date. Any real, effective style is going to always develop too, advance and perfect and be up to date. Some styles and tecniques that are very old are still very effective, but obviously some are not, and in almost any art. Since BJJ is relatively new and just tries to keep it that way and up to date and building effective techniques for the purpose of the art, then I can see your argument being valid there. However, as I said and I'm sure you must be aware, other arts, such as Kung Fu styles also keep updated and continue to develop the style. A lot of people mistake Kung Fu styles with being old and static and they definitely are not, just as JKD isn't, just as JKD isn't really even a style in itself per se anyway -- as I'm also sure you're aware. Finally, as far as taking 3+ years to learn to use an art effectively, that's not what I had meant. It's just that a lot of effective styles do build their students up, give them an understanding of balance, how to deal with things, not get taken down, effective means to do many things, such as defend and attack, of course -- as any other art should and does -- and a vaerity of other things. Some shcools deal with different things and mainly focus on different things or put their students through a long, possibly boring regime that is near pointless and takes far too long to use effectively. However, there are many schools that do not take this approach and do teach more immediate things. However, as you know, the more you learn and more skillful you become, the more advanced you can be. Styles like Kung Fu are far reaching and deal with such a great variety of styles and techniques, that it would take anyone more than a life time to learn all of them. That's not to say it takes a life time to learn how to effectively use them though. It's simply (and what I guess I meant, was) that you aren't likely to learn some effective ground fighting in Kung Fu as quickly as they'll teach it in BJJ, but there are just as effective moves in Kung Fu styles as BJJ, and that BJJ simply focuses on this aspect, which is why it might take longer -- since there's simply so much to learn, because it's such a wide ranging art. It's not like I have to explain this, but there's no reason to make light of what I said, as if you're going to have to wait years to protect yourself. If that's the case, you've trained with the wrong people (not that you've ever trained in it). Of course, that aspect goes without saying for anyone in any art, if it's not teaching them anything useful. That's not to say the student isn't patient, but I'd prefer to learn BJJ and Kung Fu in addition and use whatever I know and can use at the time with the most effect, while I learn more of another art that I know will be effective, even if it takes time to cover all the wider range of aspects it offers (this is just an example, but a working one at that). I wouldn't dismiss that or assume it's a waste of time. I'm just curious if you do flat out, or if I just misunderstood what you were saying? Anyway, on another note; Where did you study with Inosanto? At the Inosanto Academy in Marina Del Rey? Any thoughts on Doce Pares? And, are you familiar with either Kru Joey or Billy Soksoda (Soksoda Muay Thai), or John Dill (Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu -- studied Brazilian Jiu Jitsu under Rickson, Rorion, Royce, and Royler Gracie. He has also studied under Brazilian Jiu Jitsu black belts James Boran and Roy Harris)? I'm curious, as these people are local, in my town, and I'm curious if you're familiar with them (A long shot, I know), since you're into these arts.

But, you see, I have a problem... I don't carry a purse... and I really don't see my wife really weilding her purse too well in a deadly situation. Sounds interesting, I've used some pretty interesting and effective means with using your belt, especially against knife attacks. However, without a decent warning or thought that it might become a conflict, it's not exactly the most advantegous item to use, if at all. Still though, it is fun and interesting and training to use such things can help you use others.. but you know that. What sort of aspects and techniques are you learning?

"Oh, and the amount of people training in groundwork now is pretty much because of BJJ." Training in groundwork for _what_ though? Many of these techniques they base their ground fighting skills on have been around in many arts/styles for a very long time. I'm not saying you aren't aware of this, but for the sake of viewers reading this thread, although BJJ is great to know and know well for a lot of people, there are still many other styles that deal with ground fighting very effectively as well -- and it seems that a lot of people don't realize this, due to what's most the most popular effective styles right now (or for the last more than so-many years, I admit). However, it depends on the medium too. Some things work better in different situations, BJJ, Boxing and other such things definitely work very well in UFC, NHB, but aren't always the best for everyone for every situation -- unless they are going to fight in a ring, in NHB/UFC, etc. Most of the UFC/NHB events I've seen (in fact, about all of them), consisted of two large men waiting for the opportunity for a take down. I don't think UFC/NHB does BJJ justice, or any art for that matter -- even if BJJ does work well or better than most in that meduim. In other words, I think it's a mistake to use UFC/NHB as factual effectiveness, based on rules, the variables involved, etc. Boxing works very well for Boxing, in a ring, and very effective out of the ring too. But I wouldn't use Boxing to back up how much more effective it is than other styles, simply because you're not going to see those put to use very much, not in the same frequency, if at all, such as Boxing, BJJ, etc. I'm not going to go on about how people can't safely use certain styles for demonstration or fighting either. I've just seen a lot of Boxing, NHB/UFC, BJJ'ers get really hard up about how it's just flat out the most realistic art. I believe it is in a manner of speaking, because as you've even said yourself, more people can learn to use it effectively in a real situation faster than most other styles. For a lot of people, it's a good, fast and effective choice. It might be all they need. However, with Boxing and a lot of BJJ techniques, you have to pretty much rely on your body mass and strength, which not everyone is build to be able to take advantage of them. That's certainly a good argument as to why people say "What art is best, or best for you?". Most people are out of shape, slow, and, to be blant, fat slobs. Also, there's the skinny, wirely types too. Few people are in shape and built to effectively use these techniques that you see in NHB/UFC. This is a good example of a lot of fights with a lot of big men, and mostly using very little talent. Don't get me wrong, that's not to say BJJ doesn't take talent, or any other arts used. I've just seen too many of those events and NONE of them were at all impressive. No matter what art these people claimed to use, they always (ALWAYS) ended up using basic BJJ techniques and boxing. People come in claiming to be Wing Chun experts and end up making a fool of themselves, almost like they wanted to be taken down. Any event that the fighters usually rely on take downs to be effective, is something that most people will recognize as limiting. That's not to say, once again, that those arts are limiting, but it is in that medium and doesn't make a good example. I've used some simply (for lack of a better word) awesome ground fighting techniques in many styles, such as Tai Jutsu, various styles of Kung Fu, etc. It would be a mistake to assume that these art's dismiss this or rely on mainly on stand up and striking techniques. Not only do they deal with ground fighting very effectively, but they help you to deal with not going down in the first place, whereas (and I hate to say it) that BJJ lacks. Obviously BJJ does deal with that, but I can definitely say not on the same level. It's just different. I think a great combination of the many styles that do have realistic and effective techniques definitely are the best choice, and you do that, don't you, Ken? I don't know what you've taken, other than what's on your signature, but I get the feeling that you aren't much interested in many arts that are going to demand a very long time (years) to properly train in to be able to actually effectively deal with and use these methods, am I wrong? If not, I'd suggest you check out some various styles of Kung Fu that deal with a lot of variables, Tai Jutsu is great too. In fact, being very proficient in some of those styles of Kung Fu or TaiJutsu would, in my opinion as well as many other's I know that have deal with them and studied them as well as BJJ and TB, etc., that you could effectively take on such a practioner without learning any in-depth aspects of those other arts, if any at all, and be the victor of the fight. Of course, I'm sure you realize that, even if you aren't familiar with the styles of techniques I speak of or don't agree on those particular styles. Of course, we all have our own opinions and this is mine, I suppose.

I just wanted to contribute to this thread as well, and state that in my opinion, that size and weight definitely matter. Also, figure that most people don't have training like most of us participating at this forum do. Most people have never had martial arts training, or any real training. A good majority of people that have, have little experience at that, dropped out of the training after a few weeks or months, or trained for a little while when they were young and never continued or continued to develop any skills. Therefore, in most situations, you're looking at it from a perspective as per how much training and skill you personally have, since likely you are not going to run into someone skilled in martial arts. Maybe some street fighting skills, but maybe not. If you are training in a fairly effective martial arts style and develop skills and really use it, can use it and aren't afraid to use it (since most people, even that take martial arts are intimidated by frighting still anyway), then you have a big advantage, as long as you don't lose it and get all sloppy and stupid in a fight. Size certainly matters. A lot of techniques you can use on someone, might not work on others. be it a take down, a lock, grabbing them, throwing, strikes or kicks or whatever else. Try some of these on a 250 pound man that's 6 foot tall. Someone's whoes arms are like logs, hands like beer bottles and legs like they are rooted into the ground. Yes, as long as you train and are skilled at dealing with people like that, you have a good chance. But, as we've seen people mention in this thread, what if the other guy is skilled too? Obviously your chances are lessened, even if not by much, but maybe a lot. I think it's best to consider all the aspects. I fight skinny, fast people and i fight big, fast people. Some people that are small or large and slow too. Tall people, short people. I know a guy that's at least 6'7" and he's not too skinny but not fat either. You can try some things on him just for the fun of it to see how they'd work or fail and you again have to adapt and change the technique, develop it or just use an entirely different technique. It's a learning experience that we should all deal with, since some moves just simply will not work on some people, no matter what art you're talking about, since it can very much depend on your size and the opposing party's size. Obviously, the trick is to get used to it, train in techniques that will work against different type's of people -- with different types of skills. Try and find relevant techniques that will be effective that can be a default to build off of and try and find styles that deal with them better than others. This is all my opinion, but I _always_ try and prepare myself for any situation with any fighter. I don't care how unusual, rare or unlikely it is, I've ran into them all at one point or another and I'd hate to think where I'd be if I didn't prepare myself physically, technically and mentally (considering all the variables of fighting different people, etc.) I mean, it's not like you can't train yourself with just your mind in some aspects too, get used to thinking about it, what you'd do, what they could do and so forth.. even if you don't have someone large to fight against, it's not impossible to consider the variables and what you'd do in reaction, based on those aspects.

Forms are not a bad thing, just don't rely on them and remain dymanic and adapt to the situation and elements. I don't think many people would argue that. Definitely, much of it can come down to how fast you can react, think and execute a technique. Sometimes you will be required to execute a technique you've never thought about and you definitely can't just plan things in a fight. A lot of techniques/forms will help you attack or counter attack based on what the opposing party is doing and can be all you need. Often though, it's better to build off of them, which is the point to forms -- as they are to be the basis, not some static technique. It gets you used to moving in certain manners so when you do build off of them or when you do need to adapt in a real fight, that it will be more natural and you can get more power and effectiveness from your moves -- since a lot of forms are based on keeping you balanced, while allowing you to use a lot of power and gets you used to positioning yourself into another smart position. Of course, this isn't something you can't figure out a lot of yourself if you study the body and pay attention and develop it, but there are some good ideas, outright explained or not, that do help develop a lot of things that can be a great advantage to use, work off of and incorporate into a real righting system and used in a real fight -- after all, these have been developed and perfected over thousands of years for a reason. (If nothing else, to at least get a good idea and basis of what other people that might be trained could do and prepare yourself to deal with it/them.) Still, it often will (if you fight someone with talent) come down to how inventive, fast and able you are. Speaking of slopes, hills, corners, halls, walls, gravel, pavement, grass, etc. How many people here train on different surfaces? I have basically every surface in and around my home. My back yard is basically a field, it has hills, slopes, flat areas, sand, rocks, etc. I have grass, gravel, cement, etc. as well. Of course, I have walls, halls, corners, etc. as well as open areas both inside and definitely outside. I try and take advantage of this and get accustomed to fighting in different environments both in the day and night.

I was going to offer an answer, or at least attempt to. However, I there's so many opinions, theories and assumptions, that it's almost impossible to say anything about it without people offering conflicting or opposing content, which is understanable, but makes the answer(s) pretty unhelpful.

Really, if only life were like the movies, where one guy can take on an entire crowd of "highly trained combat/fighting soldiers" all by themselves -- especially where they all "wait their turn" to attack you. Then, they throw a strike, leaving themselves open, allowing you to block it (still leaving themselves open), waiting for you to do more damage to them, whilst they are still in the original position that resulted from their failed strike. Anyone here that would even dare and fight 30 (even untrained) large men wanting to kill you, would be a complete moron. I'd really like to see some realistic movies, but that's not going to happen. You are forced to watch tapes of some under ground fighting matches, and those usually suck too. You're best left to just train with people and spar with them and tape that and watch yourself -- your mistakes, where you're weak, sloppy, aren't paying enough attention, think of all the alternatives you could have done and what would possibly or definitely resulted in a better technique or execution. I tape most sparring sessions and watch them when I have time, that is fun.