Tim Greer

I wouldn't count on any movie displaying any real talent of any martial artist, other than some coordination, acrobats, stunts and that sort of general thing. If all these people fought in real life, like they did in the movies, they'd all be a joke. Some are talented in real life, but most aren't. I wouldn't use that to judge anyone, since it's all pretty much a joke and it's just coregraphed crap anyway. Sometimes it's fin to watch, but how many people really go out of their way to watch a lot of martial arts flicks and actually put any thought into what's going on? It's all just for fun and for action, it means nothing. As for Seagal, I really wouldn't know other than what I've seen him do in those movies and some other information I've seen and heard from many sources. You can bet your life, that the majority of these "actors" are 'wuss boys', because they are actors. Some might really be able to fight, but again, most can't. It takes a lot of time and money for them to be trained to do these ridiculous, pointless moves that no one would dare try in a real fight, unless they wanted to get hurt. As for this Lebelle incedent, why would that have happened? I mean, I'm curious, how and why would something like that happen? How old are these people? You'd think that an altercation on a movie set could be easily avoided, are they just simply idiot's? I'm also not sure what you mean about anyone living on myth's, it's a movie, only someone uneducated in martial arts would find any of the movie stuff impressive, but they also are the type that watch MTV, so...

Thanks for the welcome. Hey, my wife's from OZ, where are you at, if you don't mind me asking? I've been into martial arts, well, since I can remember. Of course, since I was young a lot of that time, I was into it and than less into it and back again a few times. I'm 29 now, so, I'd just say maybe since I was 5 or 6... but, I won't pretend that I was every doing or learning or knew anything useful or was really into it on a real level, until I was maybe 12 or so. A further note about that: I know a lot of people say that they've been into it since they were too small to attend the lowest grade, but to me, I don't believe 5 years of being very young has too much impact on your skills after you tack on another 20 years... uh, though I could be wrong...

Angus, this is certainly true, or at least of some schools. However, I think that you would have to admit, that at least for some school's, it's not the intention to limit or con the students in some way, of course. I imagine that not all the school's that offer a belt ranking system are using it in such a negative manner as we have brought up, but it is certainly a reality in a lot of them. I know what you are speaking about, and you too know that actions speak louder than a belt ranking. I recall the first day (my white belt) in some school somewhere, a well known teacher (not a bad one and a pretty good school), was doing some techniques and he just couldn't shut up about how I was "out doing" everyone else in the school -- including him. This didn't make me loose confidence in him or the school, because of the circumstances. I was simply better suited for these techniques and was a little more used to them and incline, due to my background. I hated being pointed out as the example, it was embarrassing and awkward. I didn't like that, not when doing techniques I wasn't comfortable with and one's that didn't feel natural yet. Then, I recall how his two new "black belts" that just came back from Seattle, WA., were so terrible. I mean, I could clearly see by his teaching's that he was a good instructor, knew what he was doing and taught some good (and some I didn't like) techniques. I didn't assume this to be a fault of his, and the students, although a little shy, seemed to be happy and felt good about their accomplishments. Nice people, I wasn't going to say anything, but it made me uncomfortable nonetheless. I mean, I didn't need to be there, but I wanted this knowledge to contribute to the total -- this is what I still do, for any style of technique I think it worth using. I did end up leaving and often joking about it and it just upset me. A travesty, indeed. I can specifically relate to your complaint though. So many people that have nothing on you, yet try and open a school without a real, authentic and respected certification proving you're a "Black Belt", and good luck! People don't know better. I can easily say and think "Well, if they don't know how pointless that _can_ be (not that is always is, of course), or don't understand, then they aren't the type of student I want anyway", but you can't blame them, since they can't know, until they get that knowledge -- it's it's not exactly incorrect to believe otherwise anyway, as we all know. I mean, being a black belt isn't a bad thing at all, but sometimes it just doesn't mean much. Be it the style or the person... which is usually the person. Be it personally, they aren't very skilled, or just a poor teacher, or both. Anyway, moving along with that though. I have empathy about it. I mean, a good working example; I program, do networking, system administration, blah, blah, blah... Well, I started in computers before they taught it in schools (not Uni, of course, but school) and always knew more than my teacher in my younger years -- and I mean, a lot more. I knew all about programming, networking, etc. before they had coursed. I.e., programming for Web servers, the software involved, configurations and securing them, etc. Few places teach that now. However, no matter how much more qualified I am than another candidate, I don't have some worthless MSCE certificate to show that I understand very basic computer skills and how to use my mouse. So, I am faced with working for company's that understand how worthless an MSCE is (and that is likely means that person actually needed those courses -- not a good thing!) because some large IT company have no clue about it, or going and wasting all that time in my life, to get a certificate to show that I know how to remember very basic things that I've moved far beyond many, many, many years ago. Believe me, going through schools for anything that you know, especially something you're so much more advanced at, would be a nightmare. Still, I am even considering on doing something along those lines, for both martial arts and computer related work, and they both make me cringe. Heh, maybe I'm just bitter? Still though, and I'm sure you agree, it's definitely not a bad thing, or you'd not be doing it and I'd hope, for your sake, and assume, that you might just learn something useful along the way? I mean, even if you're more skilled, you can still learn some good techniques from less skilled practitioner's.

As long as it's not enforced (in my opinion), I wouldn't have any issues about it. And, mainly, as long as the knowledge taught, is taught based on their ability and skill level and comprehension, not the belt they have. Again, I am aware people use belts for other reasons (personal reasons), such as you mentioned and that's fine and understandable. I guess it's the knowledge and the action that really drives me -- not that having a belt rank contribute to the situation at all means that's not true of that person as well. I don't think that, which I should be clear about -- I don't think belts are a bad thing, just that for me personally, they aren't a good or bad thing. However, many do believe that they have some automatic meaning and that's about all that drives them... I.e., their goal, to be a "black belt", because that will mean they are good, excellent or where they should be to bad a skilled fighter. Of course, that's usually not the case by the belt alone. Anyway, I'm sure you understand what I meant. You mentioned how people should wear belts when they compete? In what manner and for what reason do you refer to this? To roughly match up the fighters at the same belt rank level, I assume? Do you also allow them or encourage them to compete against another person that is higher ranked than them, or are they truly limited by their belt rank in your opinion? Don't get me wrong, I mean I understand you don't want to waste time or have any adverse results from some new practitioner compete against a fairly skilled one. Out of curiousity, do you allow any belt ranked student to attend and spar and practice with and/or against any other belt rank level (even the highest?) at your school? I'm just curious of any limitations, even if they don't seem altogether reasonable when first hearing the question posed.

It makes sense that it could possibly make you hesitate or hold back or get used to holding back and not really be making any real contact like you would in a "street fight" with no rules, etc. and it might be true to a point, but if we're talking about the difference between hitting hard and really hitting hard to do serious harm, it might not be so far removed. However, it's definitely not the same for many people. Variables like fear, panic, unfamiliarity, surroundings, unexpected and serious results, etc. are removed. This makes a very large difference in how someone fights, how aggressive they are and the decisions that make, as opposed to a controlled fight of any kind -- and I mean _any kind_. Any fight that has even one rule, or that you know will be stopped if you're knocked out cold or dying, definitely changes the variables of the fight. There's a comfort zone, you know the limits of how badly you are going to possibly be injured. That's not to say controlled fights are safe and you don't stand a chance of being injured, but most of these controlled fights tend to frown upon techniques that are used for nothing else other than crippling, maiming or killing an opponent. In a controlled fight, there's no chance of multiple people ganging up on you, having knifes suddenly enter the scenario, guns, anything. No rocks, broken glass, gravel or pot holes on the pavement of a parking lot of a badly kept shopping center. They will have to stop if so much damage is done, or they will be forced to stop. This increases your safety (comfort zone). This can't be ignored in any controlled fight, it makes a difference. Anything else, making it the same, would indeed be the same, and that would simply be a fight, not a tournament, no rules, people get seriously hurt, crippled or killed. It would be a disturbing thing to see people test their abilities by testing the boundaries to such a degree, so all we can rely on is controlled fights. NHB and UFC are a complete joke to me to watch, they have those elements that do indeed provide a safety zone. Even in a NHB fight held in a 3rd world country with "no rules", I don't think the crowd is going to be "okay" with the victor of the fight continuing to slam his opponents head into a curb until he's dead, given that the opponent has been unconscious for a few minutes and isn't contributing anything to the event, other than showing how limp a body can be. It's also worth mentioning, that in some of these controlled fights, that some styles do work better than others. Some are more effective, due to the environment. This can limit a fighter's style. I.e., a lot of the NHB and UFC fights, look like a boxing ring, or have a cage with canvas in the middle. Ref's, a nice mat to bounce on and not too much (albeit, enough for most things) room to move around in. Often, gloves are used, making grabs, strikes and the like much less effective. I've seen a lot of people use those are examples of what art is superior than other arts, based on the results of the art the winner used in the UFC or NHB fight. I've seen the video's of some of them, and they all end up being these ridiculous, WWF wresting looking events. Simply because that was what they all ended up doing. Be it they entered saying they were a Wing Chun stylist, or BJJ, they all did the same thing. I look at it this way, it doesn't matter if someone's a great BJJ or Kung Fu stylist, if they are in a boxing ring, with those limitations, Mike Tyson would rip their head off, no if's, and's or buts about it. Due to these reasons, people have claimed that certain style's are weak. Well, I've seen lot's of styles put into a NHB of UFC mix, and they never end up doing them. People claim that's because they try and fight like the other guy, because they see how much better it is. This is preposterous. Simply put, due to limitations set by rules or equipment, a lot of the brutal effectiveness of many arts, are diminished and useless, yes. But, that's a given, given the variables. Had some of these been real fights, it's not easy to always say how seemed more able, but things would change drastically -- but then again, who's going to demonstrate this effectiveness in the name of 'sport'? That would be insane. Of course, that refusal of some practitioners to go out and commit these actions to "prove" something, are why some people contend this to be a fact and how some arts are weak. I believe some art's are indeed weak, and simply because some aren't for me. I.e., in NHB and UFC, you see a lot of big, fat, slow fighters using their weight and power to win the fights, trying to take each other to the ground -- and often completely ignore any other strategy and don't bother with much fighting while standing. Even if fights usually go to the ground, it's foolish to have that be your best position, since you'd realistically not want to be there, but you do want to be prepared if you do get there -- and you likely might. I wouldn't dare make the mistake of assuming any style is weak. People think Tai Chi and think of elderly citizen's trying to stay fit or active. You look into Tai Chi Chaun and see how there's a great number of techniques for real fighting, brutal.. breaks, locks, throws, strikes, etc. Sealing artery's, the breath, bone and joint misplacements and breaks, nerve cavity presses and a whole lot more. In fact, some very effective techniques. This is the same for Karate, there's so many styles... I'm sure some suck, but I've seen some styles that have techniques (and practice them myself) that have some very effective techniques that I don't see having much chance of failing, provided they are executed properly. I personally don't take much creed in any tournament, they aren't meant to show everything in every aspect... They might mean absolutely nothing. That, however, doesn't mean that when faced with a real altercation against a skilled fighter in a street brawl, that the same person that wasn't trying to seriously harm someone in a tournament of sport, can't or isn't going to be able to seriously harm someone if they feel a real threat to their body or life. Of course, this is all my opinion, each person and situation is different... there's too many variables.

Van Damme, I hear, was a Ballet practitioner, which accounts for any amount of skill he has. Of course, Chan was an acrobat before he entered into martial arts, as were a lot of other's. I don't get the impression that Van Damme ever really touched on anything realistic though. Chan is at least fun to watch and I can see talent there, or the potential for real fighting skills.. he's just crazy enough, fast enough and coordinated enough to be a decent fighter, I think. Speaking of poor martial artists that beat their wive's, other than Van Damme, Sasha Mitchell comes to mind. What a weenie that guy is. How do these people get cast as fighters? At least Crouching Tiger had a good story line, even if it was all fluff... a very good movie anyway.

[Subject title a poor rip off spoof of a 60's movie that we all know of].. okay, lame title, but I'm curious, how many people actually care what the color of their belt is? For that matter, the belt ranking? I just want to vent, briefly (I'll try -- brief, just isn't me). Personally, I don't care for _anything_ but the knowledge, I can't care less about the belt ranking, the belt color, or any titles. I understand that some people use it as a goal. Also, how some (a lot of) schools won't further teaching a student, until they obtain a certain belt "rank". I think this is ridiculous. Some school's use it as a means to try and push this "goal" onto students to make them feel it's a must, or holds some value that they must have, or at least to afford them the means to get more money to charge for an "ability test" to move onto the next belt color/rank. I wouldn't be involved in a school that was dependant on this. It's okay to offer it and it gives some people an incentive, sure... it also gives people a goal, okay... and it also gives people something to reflect on and gauge how far they've come. This is all fine, but I'm curious how many people have seen these type's of schools that enforce it and what they think? I've seen schools that both do and do not, and yet hand out black belts to completely unqualified candidates. Not that it matters much to me or my opinion, since it's trivial, but if there's a ranking system to measure the student's ability to be able to move onto more advanced courses, should they be giving black belts to students that only know the moves, execute them poorly and haven't earned this rank? To me, this reflects poorly on the school, of course. Again, belts and ranking mean nothing to me, (I use it for the benefit(s) of reducing injury to my body while practicing), but I find it a bit odd that people are awarded these rankings, when they are simply "remembering" and executing (again, poorly) these "moves" that have been programmed into their brains and mean little more and are lacking any real substance that they can use or knowledge they can put to use anyway -- especially in a real world confrontation. This can be for many reasons, but it's usually the most common that it's due to lack of the comprehension and/or coordination and heart to really be earning this alleged status. I'm just curious, if all you out there, have witnessed this gross misuse of this system, as much as I have? I find it highly annoying to see and I have absolutely no faith in any school that would misuse this system or abuse it in an improper manner. There, I've ranted (my first here).

I came from a far off forumn that had absolutely _nothing_ to do with martial arts, but saw a post by Mr. O'Keefe, checked out the forums and decided to join. I like the atmosphere here.