Shaolin

I will... 125th Street & Malcom X Blvd (at around 1:00am) should do it...

Today most of us have. The watered down classical mess has caused such a huge misunderstanding in 'modern' martial arts that most of us today have completely discounted the value of classical styles. This is clearly due to the fact that much of what is passed off as a classical style is just a name with a bunch of forms that have no meaning to even the ‘masters’ of the system. The vast majority of whatever information may have existed in these ‘systems’ is gone or at least missing. The people teaching this 'mess' are calling themselves masters of an art that they themselves have no real understanding of. These schools are often the ones with very foreign sounding names but doing poor western boxing with odd stances and very limited success. These people say that they are teaching an 'authentic' system but are in fact reinventing the wheel - a long and painful process for the master as well as the students I can assure you. Classical styles are a compilation of combat theory and principles, developed and engineered over many thousands of lifetimes, used as a survival tool in real life and represents the best and most relevant technology man has yet conceived for use in combat. To ignore or minimize the tremendous value of this information is to condemn all of us to starting over from the very beginning of combat understanding and knowledge, essentially throwing us into a new dark age of primitive combat theory as it was 6000 or so years ago. _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-05 00:45 ]

Trapping is considered incidental in Wing Chun and the act of trapping is a result of attempting to gain a favorable position with respect to the opponent's position. To use traps skillfully one must develop sensitivity, which means a sensitivity to the physical energy of the opponent's arms, legs, or body in general. This can be learned and trained using various energy drills, such as Chi-Sao or Chi-Gerk. These exercises train the student to feel and control the opponent's energy, and thus limbs, gaining a positional advantage for your attack or counter attack.. Traps can be very effective, especially against those with little or no sensitivity skills. I think that trapping is still the lesser known and used range and will continue to gain importance in the world of full-contact sport fighting. Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-04 23:37 ]

YODA, Although I am much more traditional, I think, than you, I must say that was really funny! LMAO Jim

Very sorry to hear that. I was wondering how you feel about Aikido now. Was the situation such that you were sucker punched? Were you able to even try to use your Aikido? What group do you study with? Any more info would be helppful. As for your question: Yes I do feel safe. I do not think that I am superman or that I cannot fall victom to a sucker attack etc but I have responded to attack on the street before without a problem and would again. Many of my kung-fu brothers have also been in bad spots and came out okay including the Sifu's son who was asked by three young punks for 'his coat' - they paid for the coat but never got it Of course Wing Chun is a very aggressive art unlike Aikido, which is a very special art in that it is intent on not harming the enemy if possible and makes a lot of demands on its students...it ain't easy. But I do like Aikido in any case. Best of luck and get better soon. Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-03 12:33 ]

Understood. I was simply making the point that using Wing Chun it is quite possible to aviod being taken to the ground and 'control' one's opponent with continous Centerline Attack and Facing. This is, after all, what Wing Chun is all about and makes up the basis for all real Wing Chun training. In order to circumvent this strategy the enemy must either go around the Centerline or through it, and believe it or not neither is all that easy to do since this represents the most basic elements of what we train. _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-03 09:03 ]

Stances are used to generate power and prevent a skilled opponent from turning you into a bird... Believe it or not the old masters probably were aware that one could jump around in combat it's just that they chose to root themselves to the ground instead for control and power. Those that I have trained with have found the classical 'stances' to be quite mobile and useful when properly applied. Instead of left or right facing we prefer forward facing from outside range..this allows us to move into any position and does not offer the opponent a lead leg to attack or grab, it also allows us to counter any leg attack with one of our own and imploy sticking legs if and when needed. Again all 'stances' are transitory and the important thing (for us) is to maintain a lowered center of gravity, this is critical for proper issuing of energy needed for attacks, defense and traps, not to mention helping to keep us on our feet. Jim

http://www.fightauthority.com/movies/accion2.wmv Please...now I can't stop laughing... _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-02 21:38 ]

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/index.shtml http://www.moyyat.com/

Yes, I studied at Zen Do Kai HQ in Johnstown, NY for a while in the 80s. What do you want to know? Oh I see this is from down under...must be a different orginization. Kick Chick which were you talking about? Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-01 19:25 ]

Thanks for the responses Aikidoka! I was wondering: Is Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu still around in its pure form today? One of this things I like about Aikido is that - as far I as I understand it - operates on principles, which is something I can relate to having studied Wing Chun. The Aikidoka I have heard about related that they have found it possible to apply Aikido concepts in a multitude of combat situations - I think this is an important tool that any good art should offer its practitioners. Would you say that Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu, if it's still around, offers this flexibility and the fluidity found in Aikido? BTW here a link to the school I am considering going to. One of the senior teachers there apparently studied with Morihei Ueshiba I get the sense the school is really good, what say you? http://www.nyaikikai.com/ Thanks, Jim [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-02-28 17:09 ]

It's quite clear from your childish remarks that you don't know didly about much of anything in the arts or are simply incapable of articulating it. The BJJ people don't have squat in a standup fight. They have no idea how to control the Centerline and have no worthy entry moves, save the run, duck and grab - nor do they have any worthy striking moves as was stated above. At that range a good Wing Chun man would decimate them much like in the video I posted.

I don't get it. So what - they want to call themselves Siu Leung (little Dragon) that does not imply to me that there is any Bruce Lee connection. Bruce never 'studied' TKD. As was stated above he did train with Jhoon Rhee.

Wing Chun doesn’t block. Sometimes it parries but even then the parry and counter hit are at the same time. More often our attack or counter attack is placed into the attacking line intercepting the attack, e.g. you throw a straight punch to my chest and I throw a higher strike that closes the low line deflecting your strike and hitting you. This is where the term Jeet Kune Do comes from, ‘Way of the Intercepting Fist. For more info look into Wing Chun. Well if it was so simple then fakes wouldn’t work. What is the point of doing a fake? In most case those who use fakes will tell you that it is to get the defender to open a line or drop their defense. This usually means that the defender is doing a passive movement, i.e. you throw out the lead hand high as in the example above and the opponent’s guard is raised to defend, thereby creating an opening below that for a kick etc. If the defender is doing a passive block then obviously it isn’t just a given. A fake is a movement that is incomplete. After all if the movement is complete then how could it be a fake? So I don’t really understand your point. A fake is an incomplete attack to a particular target so that another target opens up…right? Well the difference in JKD between an Indirect Attack and a Progressive Indirect Attack is that the indirect represents one separate incomplete movement that is retracted so that a different movement from either another weapon or the same weapon can be used, e.g. high hand fake, mid kick, low kick fake to high hand, etc. PIA means that halfway to the target the movement changes direction to go for another target, e.g. a low punch that goes high halfway there. Obviously this changes direction after the opponent reacts. If is was so easy to see that a strike is only going halfway then fakes would never work. The main difference in the PIA is that the attacking weapon being halfway through the stroke is 50% closer to you when the direction changes and therefore you have less time to react to it. Traditional Wing Chun as I learned it does not use fakes so for further info on JKD attacks I suggest you consult them. Most people are not going to react to something that doesn't appear to be a real threat. That’s why any fake must appear to be a real attack. On the other hand people will often react to a feint which really doesn't resemble an attack at all. Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-02-28 06:09 ]

I think that honor should go more rightfully to the man who imparted his knowledge to both of them: Yip Man. Without him there would be little if any legend or legacy. Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-02-27 20:43 ]

You're quite funny yourself. I don't suppose you'd like to be a little more specific and indicate what you are talking about... I get the feeling you disagree with something I said - fine. It might be helpful if you actually gave an example, if you can, of what you mean instead of just making ignorant remarks. Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-02-27 20:50 ]

That's probably because he was hit about 15 times in his center of gravity before he had a chance to. Jim

Joint locks are commonly used in many different kinds of martial arts. It's a technique, not an actual form of martial arts. Grappling usually begins standing on your feet and then commonly both fighters end up on the ground. In classic Aikido, the defender always remains on their feet, only in more recent times when some jujitus restraints have been added to some styles of Aikido has this changed SLIGHTLY. I'm speaking in terms of range. There is, generally, kicking range, punching range, trapping range, and grappling range. Aikido operates in the latter range. Since the begining in Aikido people have done Aikido from all sorts of positions including sitting. There is no restriction in this art as to body position e.g. standing, sitting etc. and the principles work in just about any position. Aikido unlike Wing Chun is a defensive system - there is no attack in Aikido. Seagal has studied traditional Aikido but he also knows how to punch. Jim

Let me restate: As for GJJ I have no desire to train a system (for more that a month or two) that advocates laying on my back in the subway hugging a crazed madman who's on top of me, while his teeth are 2 inches away from my neck and ear (the guard)...anyone else see a problem here? Sorry but this is a fallacy. I know it’s hard to accept but it’s like this: Whether standing or rolling around in the muck it is possible to control someone’s balance – this is what grapplers do, except they do it on the ground. Wing Chun can do it and so does Aikido. Both while standing up. That’s the difference. Wing Chun is designed to control balance and take the guy out by snapping his head back and chopping his neck etc. instead of using joint locks and chokes. This is because the founders of the system felt that locks and chokes take too long to apply in combat. On the street muggers rarely work alone since they are cowards, and whatever you study had better be able to deal with more than one attacker. Wing Chun is designed to take someone out in less than 5 seconds. Many of us have already found ourselves up against more than one enemy in the street and survived, including me. Wing Chun is not really a ‘striking art’ it is a trapping art. The reason we train trapping is so we can dominate that range as a grappler dominates his range and control balance. Also, being a trapping art Wing Chun is in its range first when going against a grappler as you will see. Here’s a video of a Wing Chun guy defending against a grappler. The concepts he is using, which is not going to be clear to non Wing Chun people are Centerline attack and Facing.. In short, he is able to defend himself because he is attacking the center of gravity of the opponent and it is impossible to take someone down if you have lost your balance. This method he uses is not the only method but is commonly used. Note the way he keeps facing the opponent all the time, this is critical, as it allows him to keep his legs equidistant from the opponent and use both hands to do rapid Wing Chun punches. Ouch! By the way turn the sound up so you can hear the hits. At the end he says, "That's Wing Chun.." and he is correct. http://www.fightauthority.com/movies/accion2.wmv Having said that, I think there is some merit in studying basic Gracie ground work in order to pick up the basics of the ‘on your back’ scenario, after all there is such a thing as ice. Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-02-27 03:46 ]

Yes that is correctly called a fake. A feint is done with the head. Be careful with those fakes, the high hand to mid kick is one of the oldest in the book. In Wing Chun we couldn't care less if it's a fake or the real thing - our reaction is the same - we will kick/hit you - if you're in range. That's called a stop-hit. If you're interested in these types of tactics check into JKD's Indirect Attack and Progressive Indirect Attacks, the latter involves changing the direction of a kick or strike mid-way through the stroke - a little harder to counter. Jim

[ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-02-28 05:27 ]

Perhaps a martial art system that you can train throughout your entire life would be more appropriate. If you're having trouble now imagine what it will be like 20 years from now Are you training for fitness, competition, self-defense? There are a lot of less painful options out there. Good luck, Jim

I can unserstand that but usually sig pics are very small pics or icons - the size can also be restricted by the system. My sig pic was like 2K in size. In this case a sig pic would represent just one more icon added to the dozens that are already on this page. Jim

Although most people say Kung-Fu or Gung-Fu, Wu-Shu is the correct term for martial art in Chinese. Kung-Fu means to learn or over time or to develop wisdom with experience. Wu-Shu is great for fighting, since Chinese martial arts kick butt! But, "Modern Wu-Shu" as it is performed in China and around the world is designed to entertain, which has tarnished the name Wu-Shu. Modern Wu-Shu where people are jumping and flying around is a demonstration of some the most flamboyant northern style moves in the book used to maximize the wow factor for the audience. Still I wouldn't count those guys out in fighting ability - they're in such awesome condition with great training they can probably fight quite well. When Modern Wu-Shu was conceived real martial arts in China were illegal. So at that time real Wu-Shu was not allowed to be taught or displayed. Now things are different in China and once again real Wu-Shu is being taught openly since the Chinese government declaired real Wu-Shu a national treasure that must be preserved. Thank goodness they finally came to their senses. Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-02-27 01:45 ]

Well I don't think that Steven Seagal would agree with you. Aikido is a very advanced system, if a bit de-fanged that unlike most other systems out there operates on combat concepts. It is mainly a standup system that uses throws and joint locks to get the job done. I would like to know what reasons people have for thinking it is not practical. The most difficult part of the system IMO is the initial interception (of the attack) aspect, which is no problem for me since Wing Chun takes care of that and can actually set up the opponent for Aikido. Actually Wing Chun and Aikido have a lot in common: they both use similar principles - the main difference is that Aikido tries not to kill the opponent and Wing Chun tries reeally hard to kill the opponent - as fast and as brutally as possible. But Wing Chun, for the sake of efficiency, does not have any grappling or throwing in it. I think the two systems compliment each other very well and that's one of the reasons I am interested in Aikido. As for GJJ I have no desire to train a system (for more that a month or two) that advocates laying on my back in the subway hugging a crazed madman who's on top of me, while his teeth are 2 inches away from my neck and ear (the guard)...anyone else see a problem here? There's no biting in the UFC people but in the street there is!!! In my opinion GJJ is best used in sport and not suited for the street. It allows the enemy to 1. bite your ear off and 2. does not account for multiple attackers if you’re rolling around on the ground. Despite current popular opinion it is quite possible to stay on your feet in a fight – even against a grappler! Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-02-27 01:03 ]