Shaolin

Pretty much the same way it works most of the time. The distance problem for the TKDist is very hard to manage against someone who wants to close. Here is a clip of a fight between a Muay Thai guy and a TKD guy. One can see the difficulty of maintaining a long distance here. Long range kicking can only exist at ever so fleeting a distance, just a few inches too close and certain kicks can be very hard to deliver, as is depicted here. Not to say this is always going to be the outcome in this type of a matchup as this TKD guy has no hands, but this clip does show the distance problem clearly. http://www.kickboxing.com.mx/video/mastercup.mpeg

Hi John, I studied under the late Grand Master Moy Yat with his clan during the 90s in the NYC school in Chinatown. Sifu Moy Yat prided himself on passing along the system as it was passed on to him from Si Gung Yip Man. I am not aware of any segments of the family down under but I am not 100% sure. Wing Chun is a complete system. It was carefully designed to allow all parts to fit together to form a single whole that is Wing Chun. Each movement facilitates the next and this applies to how the system uses the legs and kicks and sticking legs - toward the single objective of taking out the opponent in the shortest possible time using the smallest possible movement and the least possible energy - that is the essence of Wing Chun. As Wing Chun followers, if we find, hear of, or are shown a shorter, more direct movement/method we do not say that we will add this to Wing Chun we say that, that is Wing Chun because that's what Wing Chun stands for. Wing Chun has very specific requirements in combat. Certain movements simply do not fit into the system. The reason they don't fit into the system is because more is not better - if it doesn't make the job easier, faster, shorter, more direct, etc, then there is simply no reason to add it and lots of reasons not to. Now, can you think of a movement, technique or concept from TKD that does a particular job more directly, with less energy or more efficiently than Wing Chun? If you do then by all means elaborate. Honestly, I cannot think of two more dissimilar systems. TKD and Wing Chun in their most common form have almost nothing in common. If you want to discuss via email etc let me know.

Chi-Sao is an exercise that is used in Wing Chun to train almost all hand techniques and the energy that goes with them. Moreover, Chi-Sao incorporates most of the key concepts of the system, such as: Centerline Theory Hand Replacement Forward Energy Hand Unity Facing 'Stay with what comes follow when it goes.' 'A freed hand shoots forward.' And many more... (Chi Gerk (Sticking Legs) is also used to round out the training of the system dealing with the legs and kicks.) The Wing Chun fighter must have a way of operating at close range and since sight is of little use at this range he must use his sense of touch in order to know what to do. Chi-Sao provides an interactive exchange of energy in which to learn how to use the tools and concepts in the system, both with cooperative and non-cooperative partners and with live energy. Through the use of the tools in the system in Chi-Sao he learns how to respond to attack and initiate an attack and control his partners balance and structure at very close range. This is one reason why, unlike most fighters in 'striking systems', Wing Chun guys can't wait to shoot inside to close range - it's where they are most comfortable, ironically it's where most other artists are least comfortable - this is no coincidence.

HarvesterofSorrow: Wondering where you study and under whom? Wing Chun is at least as 'involved' with long range as is TKD! If you take into consideration the number of foot/leg tools and kicks there are in Wing Chun and all the permeations possible of their use in combat and Sticking Legs training then I'd say you have as much leg learning to do in Wing Chun as in TKD. What a shocker to the unititiated! If the long range or leg training is not present in your version of WC then you should look elsewhere. TKD and Wing Chun's leg work do not complement each other and in fact contradict each other in application. Wing Chun uses all of its leg tools to complement and aid in the application of the finishing tools it has. So in essence Wing Chun uses the legs to gain control and stick to the opponent's legs in order to apply the hands or bridge with the legs in order to take out the opponent as quickly as possible. TKD does not fit in very well with the WC formula and was never intended to. The same goes for a myriad of other systems often suggested as a 'good mix' with Wing Chun.

Radok: Do you mean what style uses more, or relies more on strength or simply which is more effective? The harder the style the more that style relies on strength, this has little relation to effectivness however. In any case Tiger to me is a 'harder' style and the Mantis is softer and more yeilding.

Agreed. In Wing Chun we find that removing all emotion, or as much as possible, allows for much more explosive and relaxed power. In my experience anger, fear or even desire (to perform) in combat are all ability robbers. If one can remove emotion from their intent or a major portion of it then one can perform at a new level. _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-04-19 06:55 ]

New Rochelle

Dubai in North Africa? Don't have any idea what you'd find there. In the states it is my experience that most Sensei are not really at a level where they have advanced knowledge of their art. In other words they are not really Sensei at all by my definition. I have to believe that this is true elsewhere too. How can you know if the teacher is any good? This is tough but do your research, check him out, put the pieces together and see if they seem to add up to a good teacher. One of the things I look for is if the students at any given school come from all over to train there. There are schools where people will travel from very far away, even other countries to train. This to me is at least one indication of a superior teacher and school. If you're still not sure when you begin to train use common sense. Does what you are learning make sense for what your needs are? Can you use what they train on the street in a real life and death situation? Does what they train all fit together into one whole and not conflict? Do they use what they train in fighting or do they practice one way and then fight a different way altogether? Do the advanced students blow your mind with their high level of skill? Do they want you to sign a contract??? Hope not. Does everyone eventually ‘become’ a black belt? Hope not. In the first few months are you impressed with what you can do? Even in a short period of time you should see a change in yourself, how you see the opponent, new reflexes, and a clearer picture of where you are going in the system, that should make sense. Here’s a link with info for finding a dojo. http://www.blackbeltmag.com/rookies/ Good luck _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-04-15 21:54 ]

Where are you from? USA? State? Hate to be biased but I think Wing Chun would be a great choice. Depending on where you live you may be limited. If there is Wing Chun around where you are you may want to check it out. If not see what's around. All things being equal try to find the most qualified teacher in your area - it'll be worth the drive - ride, etc. Many high ranking teachers out there know very little about their style and how to teach it, so choose carefully. If you can post the city where you live or schools/teachers in your area it would help. Good luck! _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-04-15 06:15 ]

From what I know of Kempo it is a more Americanized style of Karate than some more traditional systems of Karate. Is this good? Perhaps, but if so it's because many traditional systems of Karate have lost much of their substance over the years. Many high Dans don't really understand the kata and how to apply these and other elements of the system in fighting. Kempo is, as far as I know sort of a remake of Karate, such as the Parker system created by the vision of Ed Parker. They still do Kata, though the people I know that train this say that they, also, don't really use the movements in fighting. I personally have always had a problem with schools that train one way and fight another way. To me if your going to train Kata then it should be something you can use, or why bother with it? In Wing Chun we use all the forms and elements in fighting, as do some other systems of Karate that still have their roots intact - but not many. In any case from what I've seen Kempo seems to have more of an emphasis on hands than do many other 'modern' karate systems as taught today. _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-04-13 21:57 ]

Although there are still systems out there that are more or less complete, most systems are not complete anymore. Most systems have lost their essence. Most 'masters' have no idea how to use their arts in combat. Most Karate isn't Karate at all. Just because there is a sign on a building that says "Karate" doesn't mean squat. Most high Dan masters of traditional styles don't know diddly about how to use their system in combat. This is the reason IMO that the classical arts have such a bad rap these days, because what people are saying is classical is really watered down garbage devoid of it's essential and original content. The information that once existed in many martial arts has disappeared or been lost over the years and what's left is only a shadow of what once existed. In all genuine Chinese Kung-Fu there is something called energy issuing. This means that the student learns how to manipulate the opponent's balance through a kind of 'bridge/arm/leg contact and energy release, now, this is of course done by all grapplers but not many strikers, since most don't train this. Grapplers issue energy, but they do so in the form of grappling, i.e. wrapping themselves around the enemy, either the torso or a limb, in order to control his balance, take him down, etc. In some arts like Chinese Kung-Fu and specifically in Wing Chun the student learns to do what grapplers do in the way of controlling and stealing balance except with less energy expended and in a more subtle manner. This energy control or manipulation is trained in Chi-Sao, the systems main energy exercise. Bear in mind that in this kind of fighting we need only steal the balance of the enemy for a moment, just long enough to get off a couple close range power hits. The Centerline is also the center of gravity and together with the system's Centerline concepts and energy training, the student learns to control the enemy's balance while standing, controlling and hitting in trapping range - like BJJ except standing - this is the essence of Wing Chun. Many arts do not have this element of energy/balance control that some Chinese Kung-Fu and some other systems have, some used to I think, but have since lost the essence of their arts and converted to Western Boxing methods, though they still call what they do 'Karate'. I have yet to see anyone even trying to do trapping, etc in popular full contact events like the UFC, but, I think we will start to see more of this in the future and I am going to do my best to make it so. Having said that, yes, anyone can go down but those well trained in energy issuing will not go down easily. The question is what to do once you go down, stay down and do BJJ? Not me. Learn how to use BJJ to get up again? Maybe, or perhaps use the elements of my own system to escape - maybe. I have a real problem with planning to stay on the ground. On the street I would make it my priority to get up on my feet again, so regardless of what tools I was using that would be my objective. Some Wing Chun methods I think can work on the ground, I would rather do Chain Punches no matter if I was on the ground or not over those punches I see the BJJ guys doing, and I would rather hit the guy while he's standing, since it's a lot easier to snap his head back while he's on his feet. A guy on the ground has the ground supporting his head, while the puncher on the ground will be unable to put all the power of his feet, legs and hips into his strikes. I am starting to do more ground attack simulations and am exploring the possibilities in that scenario. Peace. _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-04-08 06:54 ]

I agree if you have a superior position on one opponent and are raining punches down he probably won't be biting you etc. My problem with this is that you first have to get that superior position without getting hit, controlled, unbalanced, bitten, gouged, grabbed where it hurts etc. Once down on the ground it better be a one on one or his 'boy' will be on you with superior position in nothing flat. Taikudo-ka : I agree about the low stances. They offer many unique advantages that are often over looked in today's 'modern' era of non- classical martial arts. I saw a win in a full-contact fight where a fighter won by getting really low and shooting in with a straight right hand. The opponent was KOed before he hit the mat. The winner took up an amazing amount of distance with his low stance attack - to me this is a modern application of Shotokan entry. Perhaps one day people will come to realize what they are missing from the classical systems. _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-04-03 02:15 ]

Totally agree. BJJ does not seem to take into account the fact that in fights, and ones I have been in, there is often eye gouging, groin attacks and biting, among other things. I for one have no intention of rolling around on the ground with some thug in the subway, with the his teeth resting on my neck and his hands free. Most fighters today don't know how to not go down in a fight. They have weak bases and no idea what energy issuing is. This has been encouraged by the 'modern' preference to drop to the mat as soon as someone throws a strike. In the old days warriors could not afford to roll around on the groud because they would likely have been run through with some kind of blade - this can still happen today. Most fighters, however, have little or no idea how to use their hands while standing up and so they drop to the mat as soon as is possible, hopefully with the opponent. One thing that people seem to be overlooking is that in between striking and grappling range is trapping range. Trapping range and techniques offer the benefits of striking and grappling. Advanced trapping can allow a skilled fighter to control a would be grappler long enough to land strikes - stomp his leg and put some serious hurt on him. I think we will start to see more of this kind of fighting in the near future. _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-04-02 03:43 ]

I vote for Ultimate Fighting in the olympics. No pillow sized gloves to interfere with technique - no rules - or as few as possible. More or less like the UFC. Let them come from all over the world and show what they can really do. Now that is worth doing. Save the kickboxing for espn. How about also adding stick fighting such as Kali to the Olympics - that would be awesome too.

Not at all. A Wing Chun kick as in our strikes is totally relaxed such that after full extension or contact is made it falls back into its starting position - like a rubber band does after reaching full extension. I think the way we do the strikes/kicks does promote this but - to answer the question - yes it is possible. Like I said the foot or fist is flexed to make the impact 'tool' but the limb IMO and in WC style should be as relaxed as possible to promote full transfer of energy into the target.

There really should be no tense. It's this tensing thing that causes the hyper extension in the first place. In Wing Chun we teach full relaxation of the limb in order to release all of the energy into the opponent. The fist is tight in a punch but the arm is not - stiffening up the limb inhibits the release of energy and can cause injury.

Hyper extension is when the joint has reached the end of its range of motion but some force takes the joint a bit passed this range - OUCH! IF it is taken further it will break and cause more injuries. Contrary to what some may think - one can get full extension in a thrusting a punch or kick without hyper extending the joint - one is straight; the other is not.

The general training regimen for an internal style is, correct me if I'm wrong anyone, about 12-18 years. Many Chinese styles traditionally do not 'spar'. The reason for this is that it is assumed that a student with only a few years training is not yet ready for combat. Before fighting the student, even in traditional Wing Chun is expected to finish the system. If the student begins to fight before he completes the system he will be missing key parts and develop distorted technique. In Wing Chun, which is not in my opinion a true internal style, the student is not supposed to be 'a fighter' until he has finished the entire system, here system = training e.g. finish the training before fighting. This is the philosophy of many Chinese systems. We, in the instant coffee world have decided that 5, 8, 12 or 18 years is much too long to wait to develop fighting skills and so we take short cuts, with mixed but mostly poor results. Traditional Chinese internal systems are very involved and make severe demands on the student, such as, high levels of relaxation in combat, precision movement in combat and precise timing in combat. If the movements, energy and postures in these systems did not work over the many years they were passed down in China they would have died out long ago. I believe these internal systems can work very well if trained properly and for the proper time, with the proper instruction and dedication. But training in an internal style is not an easy or short road to self defense. As far as grappling/striking as I understand the definition in the 4 ranges of combat in JKD, these internal systems use all four ranges, hence their complexity. Tai Chi means Grand Ultimate and as in all internal styles its combat scope is enormous. _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-20 05:40 ]

Reinvent the wheel for the sake of the experience? No thank you. But this is very much the current mindset. "All I need is a heavy bag..." The value and understanding of real classical systems have been lost on most of us and the willingness, or in some cases, the perceived need to remove classical study shows that, perhaps the majority of people studying do not understand what these classics offer. Indeed many who are in ‘classical’ schools aren’t learning anything classical or pure. So chances are what you’ve seen suck at classical school isn’t the real thing anyhow. Classical styles were, in some cases developed over not ten, not hundreds, but thousands of years of fighting and dieing during some of the most violent years of human existence. Anyone who declares these systems anything less than a treasure-house of martial knowledge is doomed to reinventing the wheel of combative arts, as it was, perhaps a few thousand years ago. Bruce’s personal challenge, as Dan Inosanto and others, saw it was that he needed a way around the limitation of his half-full cup of Wing Chun, and that he knew he couldn’t beat his Wing Chun seniors, such as WSL at their own game. This is a problem for someone like Bruce who was determined to be the best. JKD was his effort to be shapeless, empty, formless, to think outside the box, to in essence embrace the Tao - a brilliant choice. Bruce never had a chance to test out his JKD on his seniors but perhaps he could have used it to get around the WC wall, perhaps it would have worked for him but from the perspective of some he was “going round to the back door” because he didn’t have “the key” to the front. Indeed Bruce was dynamic enough perhaps to make this work. None the less to many it remains a more difficult path and after all Si Bok did say: To me this is the core component in a good system and it is the key in WC. _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-20 04:48 ]

Having watched that movie about a thousand times I have enjoyed seeing things some may not notice the first few times. Check out the extras during the fight scenes. They seem to be enjoying the movie as much as anyone. For example watch the onlookers watching Bruce fight in the tournament. If you look carfully you can see them watching bruce 'do his stuff' with genuine giddy delight as he blows away his opponent - motioning as if to say..holy sh*t check that out. Also when Bolo cuts the rope binding Bruce's hands Bruce suddenly yanks his now free hands apart and flexing all his muscles with that Bruce intensity, Bolo seems to get a kick out of it as he walks out of the shot. He later commented in an interview that he always got a big kick out of working with Bruce...no pun intended. Clearly many of the extras and others really enjoyed working with Bruce and being on the set. Sorry I couldn't have been there to enjoy it too.

Hey Dude, I am no expert but I suggest that you talk to your doctor about it and see what he says. I don't think there will be any trouble with some light lifting. Keep it light and fun and you'll have a big head start on all the other kids Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-16 23:32 ]

I went from Shotokan to Wing Chun with no problem. I also found many answers to all my questions about Shotokan and all martial arts in the study of Wing Chun. WC is a comprehensive system desgined to take the opponent out piece by piece and as fast as possible. There is also extensive leg training as well as the emphasis on hands. Ultimately Wing Chun will close to trapping range and finish the opponent there. Here's a good Wing Chun link: http://www.wingchunkuen.com Jim

Well the upward snap does contribute but I don't know if I can explain it correctly physiologically. I can only say that the upward wrist snap provides an additional joint/muscle adding velocity while enhancing fist forearm alignment creating an 'arrow' (locked single unit) with which to shoot. The power in the punch should come from relaxed energy: The kuen kuit for the punch is a rock(tight fist) and a string(relaxed arm). In teaching the punch the main challenge in my experience is traning the student to turn off the bicep and allow the punch to fully extend without hyper extending. I would be interested to hear any additional info on the punch or chain punching. Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-14 02:10 ]

It should be noted in this case that Andrea's doctor(s), husband and other people knew she was 'unstable' or nuts and yet left her in the care of all the children. There were also previous serious incidents and major warning signs, that all of the above ignored, even before she became pregnant with had her last child. It seems to me that these other individuals should be held somewhat responsible for this as well. _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-14 01:02 ]

When we used to bow at the Dojo it was said that we were bowing to all those who had ever entered it before us. If there is a God who created this great universe do you really think he's obsessing over your bowing? If so he must be really pissed that you have chosen not to turn the other cheek and are instead involved in a heathen martial art. Jim _________________ Moy Yat Ving Tsun Rest in peace dear teacher, dear friend, dear brother, and dear father: Moy Yat Sifu [ This Message was edited by: Shaolin on 2002-03-14 00:09 ]