Andrew_Patton

wow... not a person knows anything about one of these type of tournaments?

Hi all, I've been training shorin-ryu karate for the past eleven years and have competed in several of them pillow fight style tournaments, trained MMA and kickboxing and even ended up getting my sandan in Shorin-Ryu. I'm looking for more, I'd like to know if anyone has any info on Kyokushin tournaments in or around North West Indiana. I'm NOT part of Kyokushin-kai but feel like I need the experience for the fun of it. Just something I've always wanted to do

One of the things I'd love to point out is there was an early vale-tudo fight between gerard gordeu (the guy who fought Royce Gracie in the finals of UFC 1) and Yuki Nakai, a Japanese fighter, Gordeu gouged Nakai's eye leaving him blinded in that one eye, later losing it, and all that did is push Yuki into punishing him, until he finally submited him via rear naked choke IIRC. Gordeu also tried a simillar tactic against Royce in UFC1 upon being taken down, he gouged his eyes and bit his ear, hence the reason the choke was held for so long in that fight, it was an illegal tactic that Royce didn't like one bit

One of the bigger issues of XMA being around is that if I tell people that I teach karate, one of the responses I get from the younger people (20-25ish) is "oh you mean that gymnastic stuff on ESPN?" then they'll usually give me a laugh, etc. Also if you watch the beginning of the program when they're on TV they talk about the traditional forms having "thousands of years of training in them" or how they're the background of Martial arts training, etc etc, and how the competitors have amazing power and speed when they obviously lack form, and everyone seems to be only really good at "tricking" as they call it, while lacking in their base techniques.

yes, I was mistaken norris's trademark kick was a spin side-kick. but my point was back in the "good ole days" karate tournaments weren't as flashy and "pitter patter" as they are today, it was more basic and straightforward while being true to Karate's roots. And, I don't remember if it's been mentioned before BUT Ryoto Machida trains with Blackhouse in the UK, the new home of Vitor Belfort, so I no longer consider him a Karate-practitioner, he's a boxer/thai boxer now to be honest. And Inoki Ichihara of old UFC fame was a Nidan or Shodan at the time and was being billed as either 5th or 6th when he went into fight at UFC 2... At the time, I don't consider there being a great Karate practitioner in MMA fights, yet... that is to say, there's been good, but the "greats" either were to old at the time, OR are leading there own styles ala Matsui with kyokushin. On the other hand, Semmy Schilt, a higher student of Kyokushin has had one MMA fight IIRC, and was K-1 Grand Prix champ for a while there.

Thanks Ottman, that's really what I've been looking for is someone who's experience mirrors my own. I can't really stand all the bouncing, honestly, I've run over this former student of mine everytime I sparred and played the game how I like to, after my ACL tear and broken rib (seperated from cartilage) I sparred well, conservitively (okay crappy) and he took that as a sign of weekness, but whenever either was doing fine, I'd run over him like always, and to add insult to injury a 15-year old brown-belt of ours would blow thru him like it was nobody's business. Like I've said, it isn't my problem anymore, the school is doing much better without him, and I've had loads of experience with this "bounce step" (I used it on and off competing from white to blue belt, then got turned onto NOT using it and increased my speed and reaction times greatly) but have found nothing but negative side-effects from it. I swear it's just a toy with your opponent and try to get him to bounce also type of thing (like the side-ways bouncing in judo) or something... Sparring is no place for tricks, secret coaching techniques, etc. it just isn't.

Oh yes, of course, more contact and much tighter, you didn't see those guys doing half the bad habbits that our current karate tournament fighters have (lack of hip in punches, flashy techniques, being in the air to much) in fact, out of all those guys you mentioned, I've only seen one throw a spin kick, one time. Bill Wallace, and that was only AFTER a younger fighter threw that at him, he threw it just to show he could, other than that, they're all basic, straight-forward fighters with their own flavor that could take the right MMA fighters on the feet 9/10 times

because 90% of the karate tournaments today are either standing there punching each other in the chest or full-speed, over the top flick tag where two opponents hop wildly in the air and smack each other in the top of the head. Okay, I know I'm exagerating a little bit, but in my experience the vast majority of tournament karate goes similar (exageratedly simillar) to this and the majority of the participants do not want to get hit in the face. It's just a simple fact, when you don't like or are not used to getting hit flush and HARD you're not going to do well at something like MMA. On the other hand, I enjoy getting hit, and have amateur boxing, kickboxing and MMA fights under my belt. So not all karate-ists are this way.

oh yeah, let me tell you we were looking forward to letting him go If you look at all the combat sports out there and all the better fighters, none of them really bounce, they have their knees flexed and their heels off the floor... there are exceptions, notably savate guys, but they work backwards from everyone else (hands secondary weapons, feet primary) and that's simply not the way kickboxing, boxing and karate work, so unless you're a savate guy, or want to point-spar for a $5 trophy... it's a detriment IMHO

Honestly, like I said earlier, every one of our instructors has "been there, done that" we all have learned, taught, and utilized this motion, found it lacking, and if asked (which we were by this student) taught it. Also, like I had said, two of our instructors (one recently, and one ages ago) have beaten both the "world champion" and the guy he's currently training with. But, this student, months before his father left the orginization started to get one heck of an attitude, and was going to be asked to not come back the next time he came to class due to an incident he had with our senior most instructor. No skin off our backs, I was just wondering what everyone's fascination with this type of movement, and what any of your reactions to it are.

Honestly, it isn't bouncing like you would learn in boxing or footwork like in kyokushin (up on toes, heels off the floor, light footed) it's an actual bounce, like both feet leave the floor type of bouncing, and apparently all the tournament fighters out there use it. The funny thing is, that none of the instructors at our school use it or advocate it's use, it only has draw-backs for us; delayed timing, can only attack at certain points of the bounce motion, easier to get swept, hard to move backwards, etc. And, none of us can see the point of it. The student left shortly after he went to a local seminar with an instructor (some guy who's supposedly won hundreds of point sparring tournaments "back in the day" and is impossible to score on) advocated it immensely, the guy isn't a super-man or anything IMHO, as my dad has sparred him "back in the day" and went down only by a point or two. Anyways, I digress, it's a bounce that is only usefull for point sparring, not for power generation, or anything. And I'm just wondering, what's the fascination with it? Whatever happened to the student that wanted to hit like a ton of bricks?

technically speaking, the breaking of a 2x2 is a parlor trick, yet it actually is a difficult parlor trick to reproduce. The typical old school way to do iron body training is just with the instructor (or helper) striking the other student with open handed strikes, punches, and kicks. Iron body training in Karate also consists of regular training with the makiwara, and other training devices (ishi sashi, nigiri game, tetsu-geta, etc.) And should only be done in the watching eye of a competant instructor. Which is a bit hard to find because most people only believe in doing kata, or sparring and neglecting a very vital part of their training.

Hate to be a stickler for accuracy, but IIRC strikes to now illegal areas of the body were begining to be eliminated by UFC 10 or so, and were all but gone far before Zuffa took over, in addition, gloves, rounds, time limits and weight classes, along with the entire rule-list, 10-point must judging, etc. were all in place before Zuffa took over, the "Zuffa saves the day" mindset when it comes to the UFC is a myth, created by Dana White and the brass over at Zuffa. SEG was working with the Athletic commisions over a year before Dana White and Co. took over the company.

Recently we had a student, who was one of our better point/tournament fighters quit to go practice with someone who practiced what he and his father (one of our former instructors) called a bounce step. This is basically little hops continuously throughout a sparring session, that are supposed to be able to make it harder for your opponent to predict your movements, they also couple this bouncing with moves that have gotten a bum rap in our family such as the "running backfist" I have found only a bit of a detriment with this methodoligy, messing up my timing, making it easier to get "scored" on easier to get swept. I'm wondering what if any benefits. and detriments there are to this in anyones opinion. Thank you

Whenever I teach something I like to play the percentages. Lets say if I have a 2% chance of performing the lock in question, if the grab/punch is at the correct level, if the strike is on the right side of my body, etc, etc. Then the fact that I have to maintain a grip on my opponent, namely on the wrist, then factor in the opponent jerking away from my hold, you have something that looks kind of iffy in the percentages department. And, yes, I garantee there are movements that look like or act like judo movements, but you wont find a text-book judo movement in your kata, or a perfect muay thai, jujutsu or wrestling move in there. You might have a modified "karate version" but the chances of finding something complex and from the other side of the world in Kata is hit and miss. Karate has throws, takedowns, trips, joint locks, etc. but they are their own beast. Created by Karate-ka thru the ages and put in our kata. Remember one thing, if your imi (intent/movemet) doesn't match your kata movements (body placement, hip rotation, stance, power generation) then you are doing something incorrectly.

Lets take this example and delve just a little deeper into it, so you're saying something like say the opening movemet of pinian shodan/heian nidan according to Iain Abernethy is a good interpertation? (simultaneuous up block and middle block, arm cross, and front hand punch) Last time I checked he had that sequence as a three-step grapple sequence that was very much like a standing americana/keylock! I dare you to go out and apply that on someone and you will see that it is much more complicated to apply than just simply using the exact same hand positions you do in your kata and apply them as an easier meaning. Now I am NOT saying there isn't some sort of grappling in Karate kata, but what kind of since does it make to find a text-book O-soto Gari, Kimura, or Double-leg take-down as executed in a more modern art, one-hundred or more years after a kata was invented when judo/jujutsu/greco or freestyle wrestling has become the "in thing?" Well, if you want a good reference point the best I can find is Keith Hackney vs. Royce gracie from the older UFCs (number 4) Keith is an old school "hard knocks" Karate guy, and gave Royce quite the tooling until he got taken down, Keith didn't do a wrestler's sprawl or anything, just shucked Royce off... Now, you have at the time a Nobody (Hackney) and one of the Best BJJ guys out there (Royce) and Royce was barely able to get Hackney to the ground... Let me put if like this, In Karate we have various throws (not judo throws, karate variations, ones that are made for a striker (stay away from the abernethy ones, some of his are.... suspect at best IMO)) and something that is very under-utilized by Karate-ka the Plum clinch (neck clinch, thai clinch etc.) a pure striker's tool! And it's right there in Pinian Yodan/Heian Yodan! and no-one uses it, Why is this the case? It's right there, and it's a great tool... We have great throws, and VERY powerful strikes, and no-one can use them, why is this? Rules when we spar!!! I've gone to tae-kwon do tournaments, point-sparring tournaments and Kyokushin tounries and they all have some sort of restriction on karate (not talking about the "secret mystical death-touch" here) I'm talking about a good, solid lunge punch, or neck clinch that even at a karate tournament is made illegal. When you aren't allowed to utilize your power in a tournament you aren't going to study it as hard as possible and when you don't study hard down the line your students students will only be able to hit as hard as the average person... Now, within the past seven or eight months, I have removed ALL boxing from my Karate, there is no jab/cross/hook when I spar in a Karate environment, I have elbow, knee, lunge punch, reverse punch, Naihanchi shodan, etc. Whatever I need to spar someone is in my kata, I have combinations that work against people with national championships in point sparring, and ones that work against my boxing buddies. I've had nearly everyone I've used them on (even my ultra simple, lunge punch, reverse punch, step reverse punch combo) ask me what in the world I was doing... And everyone of them that KNEW a martial art at all was blown away that basic day one stuff completely threw them off... I know what you're thinking, taking your hands down to throw a punch makes you slow, you see, if you think that you're not setting your moves up correctly. Let me show you how. Lets say I'm throwing a lunge punch, if I step in and throw my punch with no set up, it's not really gonna work. if you look at a step and punch in karate before you even punch you have a hand forward... This is your set-up it's kind of like "ground and pound" in the UFC, when a fighter wants to throw an elbow from top position he'll put his hand on his opponents forehead, then bend his arm and force his elbow down. Well, this is almost what we're doing here, but we're raking his guard hand down, or smacking him in the face and popping him with our punch in the body. If you don't use every part of your Art, you're not using it! Think about that "useless" hand in many attacks in your karate like a jab. It's your set-up. Now I gotta admit this is not the rule, there are time you'll swat an attack away with the lead hand or grab your opponent (his attack, his lapel, behind his head) then follow up with an attack of your own (let's say elbow) but that's a different story... Along with "dirty boxing" and a few other nasty tricks that are alluded to in your katas. Maybe when I have more time? Sorry if this isn't 100% readable had five minutes to type this.

honestly, I do believe so, I don't quite do it like the demonstrator in the video does, but the way that I off-balance when I spar, and follow up with normal good ole' basic techniques, leads me to being able to score on your basic "point sparring" character. Of course, you also have to take into account that in a real fight (been there, trust me) everyone tends to "over-commit" not try to out-box each other and turn the pace of the fight with a few quick jabs, but take each other's head off. I have to say though, flawed as it may be, it at least shows a bit of faith in your system, which is a good thing. With proper work, training and pollish it's a very viable thing, to use your normal "proper" blocking techniques.

Bravo swdw, that was actually a pretty nice video to watch, almost makes me want to learn a little bit of Goju from you. It's exactly like you said, if you have confidence in your technique it'll work, I've recently began using lunge and reverse type punches in sport type sparring (the type where everyone and there mother decides to 'box') and using the up-ending style you show in that vid makes using completely traditional strikes that "everyone knows" very easy to score with. I'd like to know what some others have to think about this vid, I wonder if ShorinRyuu has seen it, if this is close to the osae he speaks about now...

I'm with most here that the Kata is 90% grappling epidemic needs to end. Although I'm now ademently against throwing in the "coolest" new ju jutsu, or judo lock/throw/manuever into our Karate kata, I've got to say this trend has at least led someone to look into their kata and try to figure something out. A little over a year ago, I bought one or two of Iain Abernethy's books (the guy's stances and everything were WAY off, was the first thought I had when I started reading) but, it had some value, just took me a few months of looking for the latest armlock or choke to figure out how rediculous it was. Karate is and will always be a striking art, and that's where our MAIN focus needs to be, generating true power the kind of power that's legendary, the kind of power that people like mas oyama, and pat nakata are reputed to have. The stuff that legends are made out of. The grappling, throws, sweeps, etc. in our art should augment and set-up those devastating blows we should work on perfecting. Thank you, and this is not meant to be inflamatory... we just need to look for the most devastating meanings behind our kata, not settle, but dig deep and work as hard as humanly possible. I once thought that finger thrusts in our kata were foolish at best, but have done the "watermelon break" among other things recently, and what it took was will and dedication to a cause, that's what we need to do, devote time to using our punching bags, etc to develop sledgehammers for punches and teach others to find that to, THEN we focus on the rest of the art. Remember there is one secret to Karate, the basics, master those and you've mastered your art.

True, true, but there have been many synthetic types of anabolic steroids, or pro-hormones that have been sold through GNC and other type stores, I remember reading the backs of a few products (don't rememer what, it's been a year or so) and having side-effects including gynoclamastia (sp?) and testicular shrinkage are HUGE red-flags to me to say, hold on... these are steroids, like it or not, I've seen them there a few times, why do you think "pro-hormones" are now deemed illegal, because they very closely mimic anabolic steroids. ALSO, think about it this way, what's illegal here, isn't illegal elsewhere. I'm quite certain that it's easy to obtain and be cleared to use steroids in Canada and Mexico (IIRC)

Well we actually should give Royce a little bit of "devil's advocate" time here. He has stated in an email interview with Sherdog.com that he got all of his supplements from GNC. Now, I know for a fact that GNC has in the past sold several different kinds of supplements that in the past were fine, and are now illicit in several states (and athletic venues) namely pro-hormones. I'm not sure about the product/steroid/banned substance in question, but couldn't that be something that was actually sold at a GNC type of store?

IMO you shouldn't get worked up about testing, period. I've had to test, usually hard, for hours on end, for every belt that I've ever earned, and I can't recall ever getting nervous for a single one of them. You really shouldn't "expect" to get your rank, or be dissapointed if you don't get ranked. One of the faults with the belt system (I noticed this frequently with my own students) is that if you expect to get ranked, and don't people are often pretty depressed about it. Just don't expect it, don't let yourself get worked up over it, but train as hard as you have in your life. A belt is nothing other than a piece of cloth is it not? Prove you deserve your rank with strong kihon, good dachi, kata, and kime just make sure you are the one people look at and think 'wow, why haven't they got their Black belt yet?' IMO Karate is something you need to do for yourself, so don't really worry about how the younger students do.. In my experience they're rarely at an adult level... but if they rank, they deserve it.

So I spent a few hours constructing a canvas bag that's currently hanging in my garage, filled with 20 lbs of sand (could hold at least 60... but that's really bad math on my part, oops) and I have to say, this is probably the best makiwara or bag that I've hit, period. It feels much more natural to use than the normal post type makiwara, gives better feedback, and tells me my blocks suck. Overall, makes me realize I need some good training with this methodology (walk-in drill is quite odd to me) BUT, it's a great tool to have. Probably the best bag hanging in my garage.

well, that's exactly as I meant to say.. it's interesting to note that when I see some of the higher up and more understanding students block they attacking limb always moves and so does the attacker, oppening them wide up for the counter strike... when others do it though, the arm is hit, the attacker stays on balance, and the blow is less effective. Would this be a decent explanation of the concept of Osae?

The Osae explanation (which mind you, I have heard) is pretty obvious when looking thru Chibana style kata, even the opening movement of Kihon Shodan involves it, stepping forward with an extended hand, throwing a reverse punch, passai dai includes it, chinto, kusanku, and pinan shodan as I mentioned before (just off the top of my head) Like I said, I've heard this theory and methodology, I just haven't mulled it over to much (or had a chance to train with an instructor like Nakata Sensei) this is something that I've noticed with most karate students, no matter what the style, the inability to hit an object withoug pushing. In all the schools I've learned at there were only a few students who understood what it meant to hit an object and not "show off" and move the bag around or knock it over (wavemaster, BOB, etc.) Like I've been thinking for the past few weeks, you're quite lucky to have found Nakata sensei. Someone who truly understands power.