Gumbi

You're probably thinking of under siege 2- Rigan Machado I believe was the bad guy and he tackles seagal to the ground- with a good couple of elbows and kidney kicks, seagal sets him up for a quick armbar, then takes his back and chokes him unconcious. Then there's Lethal Weapon with the fight scene at the end choreographed by Rorion and Royce Gracie. Jiu Jitsu happens at the end when Mel Gibson rolls Gary Busey over and is in a headlock- Mel Gibson makes his frame, breaks the grip, takes the arm for the armbar, Gary sits up and counters, and Gibson switches to triangle choke.

I agree with ninja. Where I train its a pretty simplified process. Before you know it, one day you show up, and the instructor is like "hey, congratulations, you've been promoted." Go buy your belt and wear it next time you're in class.

Yeah, thats pretty much what Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is- joint locks and strangle holds. The idea is that you may be bigger and stronger than me, so I cant hope to defeat your strength. What you do instead is attack the neck or a limb. My arms my not be as strong as your arms, but when I apply an armbar my arms, back, and hamstrings are much stronger than your lone arm.

That was posted on sherdog and the source for the site was given as https://www.mmaeurope.com Like I said, Judo has fine ground work and it will make you into a good ground fighter, we're not debating that, but the ground work simply will not be as quality as BJJ.

Consider the following article: Are BJJ practitioners as good as Judo players at throws? Of course not. Are Judo players as good as BJJ stylists on the ground? Of course not. For some reason, the first of these statements is readily accepted, while the second is hotly debated. If you are one of the few who still believe that Judo "ne-waza" and BJJ groundwork are one and the same, consider the following quotes from two brothers who know what they're talking about... Dan Camarillo: "After practice I came to the conclusion that Jiu-Jitsu is much more technical and I wanted to know more! I had a problem with new blue belts and here I am, a junior national champion in Judo. So I could not imagine how good their purple, brown, and black belts would be." "I would have to say at one point the mat work was close, but not anymore. The Gracies have perfected the art, and all the new top BJJ guys out there are coming up with more and more techniques never seen before. The longer BJJ is out there, the more it is pulling away from Judo and it already has pulled far enough away to be on its own. I am not trying to put Judo down in any way at all. I love it, it helps me so much, but I have gotten rid of 90% of the mat work I have learned from it." Dave Camarillo: "Bottom line for those who know both arts: know that they are very different in purpose and application. Also, you never hear of Jiu-Jitsu guys claiming that they are the best at throws, but they do use them. I hear a lot of trash talk coming from Judo guys that they are this and that on the ground. Even saying that Judo and Jiu-Jitsu are the same. Well, they are not. I feel that after training with guys like Nino that there are no Judo guys that I have ever seen or fought that could come close to them on the ground." Judo and BJJ have similar techniques on the ground, but the rules of Judo urge competitors to win with spectacular throws rather than submissions. In contrast, a throw (if it occurs at all) is just the beginning of a sport Jiu-Jitsu match. For the duration of the match, the referee will not interfere with the competitors, who will continuously fight for dominant positions and submission holds until the time is up or someone has tapped out. It's no wonder that Judo groundwork techniques have suffered in comparison with BJJ, when the following rules are considered: (1) The lifting rule. Suppose you are standing, but your opponent has you in an arm bar and is going for the finish. What should you do? According to BJJ, the first priority is to reduce the pressure on your elbow by stacking him up (putting your body weight on his legs to keep him from arching his back). Judo rules dictate that you should simply lift your opponent off of the ground (which actually increases the pressure on your elbow), because the referee will stop the match and restart you both standing. This rule gets Judo practitioners in big trouble when they participate in a sport in which the referee will not intervene on their behalf. (2) The "no apparent progress" rule. In Jiu-Jitsu, if someone balls up and gives his back to his opponent, he is in trouble. Don't be surprised if he ends up being choked into submission before too long. In Judo, it's much more likely that the referee will soon say "matte" (which rhymes with latte and means stop) and stand the fighters up. With very little time to work on the ground, Judo players have no incentive to learn how to gradually improve their position until a finishing hold can be applied. (3) The 25 second pin. In Judo you can win a match by pinning your opponent for 25 seconds. Why jeopardize a sure win and go for a finishing hold, when all you have to do is hold on? This is certainly another rule that discourages Judo stylists from improving their submission skills from a dominant position. So what about the Hidehiko Yoshida vs. Royce Gracie fight? If BJJ is so superior on the ground, why couldn't Royce submit Yoshida? In a word, "defense." A gold medalist in Judo really should be good enough to defend himself on the ground if that is his only goal. Keep in mind that it's easier to defend against submissions than it is to execute them, and there are no unstoppable attacks. Royce showed superiority on the ground by repeatedly achieving dominant positions such as the mounted position and taking the back. The fact that he couldn't submit Yoshida doesn't mean that they were equals any more than a lack of a knockout would indicate that two boxers are necessarily equals. The rules of Judo aren't going to change anytime soon, so expect BJJ to become more and more dominant on the ground as the years go by. Of course, don't hold your breath waiting for BJJ practitioners to be throwing Judo players, either! https://www.mmaeurope.com Its hard to be the best in one aspect of fighting without in some way sufferring in another. BJJ is so good on the ground because its so bad standing up. No one is knocking Judo here- we're simply stating the obvious. Is boxing a useless fighting style? I could argue that its useless because boxing alone never fared well in MMA competitions- but every fighter in today's MMA incorporates boxing into their training regiment. Everything is about cross training today. If I want to learn throws, Im going to take Judo. If I want to learn ground techniques, Im going to learn BJJ.

Helio vs Kato- Kato had about a 40 lb weight advantage on him, and considered to be technically superior to the champion Kimura? Once the fight went to the ground, Kato was choked unconcious in about 2 minutes. Helio vs Kimura? Kimura had an 80lb weight advantage over Helio, and was also 9 years younger. He claimed that because of this obscene advantage, if Helio lasted 3 minutes with him, he would be declared the winner- it took Kimura 13 minutes to submit Helio. Royce Gracie vs Remco Pardoel- Pardoel was a European Ju Jitsu and Judo champion. He was choked after Royce took his back in UFC 2 Royce Gracie vs Yoshida II: Yes, you DID miss that one- because it was only aired in Japan. The 176 lb Gracie was able to dominate the 220lb Olympic Judo Gold Medalist EVERYTIME the fight went to the ground. The best position Yoshida was able to attain was a half guard. Royce nearly landed a few footlocks, passed Yoshida's guard, mounted him, and took his back twice. Did you see Yoshida's face after that fight? If you wanted points on a ground fight, Royce was up 15-0 on the ground fight, even though hes outweighed by 45 lbs. Wanderlei Silva vs Yoshida: Im not going far with this one, because Im not going to say that Silva learned how to throw punches and knees due to his BJJ training. He trains at Chute Boxe Academy which is Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Yoshida certainly got the takedowns on him, but Silva, being a purple belt at the time, came inches away from winning with a nice Triangle choke against Yoshida who for some reason insisted on attempting submissions while IN Silva's guard. Yoshida is a great grappler, but I think you can see that his strength is his throws, where his (grappling)weakness is his ground techniques. Just as someone like Royce would have a strength on ground techniques and grappling weakness in takedowns. Like I said, no one is saying that Judo isnt good or that it doesnt teach you good ground work- its simply that they spend ALOT of time on the standup game, because thats how you win in Judo, whereas BJJ spends ALOT of time on the ground game, because thats how you win in BJJ. Lets turn this question around- How many judokas can you name that have done exceptionally well at Abu Dhabi?

I guess I'll bite: First off, the reason why many martial arts schools suck in the US is because everyone wants everything NOW. Why go to one Tae Kwon Do school that takes 2 years to get a black belt when I can go to another and get the same belt in half the time? For every person out there willing to sell you a cheap black belt, there are 10 others who are willing to sell it to you cheaper and faster. As far as picking a school- I'd make sure that there is some type of active full contact sparring involved, and there is nothing wrong with tournaments. Boxers, kickboxers, and wrestlers compete in tournaments all the time. My personal favorites for fighting are Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai, Sambo, and Judo. All of these styles have training regiments in which you attempt the techniques against a fully resisting opponent, just like you'll find in the real world.

I've been thrown by a couple of quality Judokas. It looks like it hurts when you watch them do it to someone else, but if you even have the slightest idea how to break fall, they're the safest people to go with. And yes I can feel (when im flying through the air) how clean the technique was.

1: If you're talking about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, yes, it certainly will help you (ALOT) if you get into a real fight- its so effective its scary. If you're talking about Traditional Ju Jitsu, theres a lot of variables. TJJ schools depend on the instructor, as some teach more strikes, others more throws, and even others more ground work. Personally, I don find TJJ very practical. 2: Generally, if you train 2X a week in about 6 months you could really dominate an untrained person on the ground. Even by your first month of BJJ, you're already learning the most important things such as how to get someone off of you if you're mounted, as well as a few basic submissions. You've also got a plan of attack- you generally know what stable positions there are in a ground fight, and you kind of know which ones are the best to get (i.e. you'll work to get a mounted position on your opponent) 3: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Judo are different in a few ways. For one, in Judo you can win a match by a perfect throw technique (ippon). Once you're on the ground, you've only got a few seconds of ground work before you're stood back to your feet again. Once on the ground, you're also only allowed to apply submissions in the form of choke holds and joint locks at the elbow. Pressure against the face it illegal, so if someone tucks their chin, you cant choke them over their face, nor can you cross face them to bring their chin up. If at any point on the ground you lift your opponent off the mat- tech break is called and both fighters are restarted from standing position. Since the easiest way to victory is a throw, you'll see MUCH more emphasis on throwing techniques and takedowns. BJJ on the other hand, victory is only attained by submission or by points (when match time expires). You cannot escape submissions by lifting your opponent off the ground (i.e. the match still continues if you lift an opponent) and pretty much there are a lot more submission options- footlocks, kneelocks, shoulder locks, wristlocks, choke holds, etc. Usually once a BJJ match goes to the ground, it stays there, so you'll see alot more emphasis on ground fighting techniques. 4: SPORT BJJ does not teach you how to punch and kick, simply because strikes arent used in competition. Most BJJ schools are sportive schools. Gracie BJJ on the other hand, has alot of self defense techniques, however, very few punches and kicks. The mentality behind BJJ is you always assume your opponent is bigger, faster, and stronger than you are. In such a situation you wouldnt want to trade punches with an attacker. Then also take into account that even when well conditioned, hands often break when throwing punches in a real fight. For those reasons, BJJ generally only teaches you enough (like 1 or 2 strikes) to setup a clinch from where you can take advantage of your grappling skills. Traditional Ju Jitsu has strikes, but once again it depends on which instuctor you train under and which school hes from (schools will generally dictate the techniques he'll favor and teach whether it be strikes, throws, or groundwork) and there is also no sportive competitions in TJJ. 5: Whether you're just trying to have fun, get in shape, find a new hobby, or trying to become an MMA fighter, BJJ is simply fun to do and it often has a pretty relaxed atmosphere. Most people that do BJJ are also adults, and since you do hands on grappling/sparring with each other, classes are separated between the adults and children (if there are any).

First off, the reason why we're seeing fewer and fewer submissions in sport BJJ is because more and more qualified instructors are arising- which leads to more students being trained under black belt leve fighters- in short, people are getting better, although I do agree that more people hold on for the win now than in the past. Its not that Judo doesnt teach enough on the ground, or that it teaches too much standing- indeed it has a nice blend between the two. In a 2 hour Judo class, you generally spend about 30 minutes on ground work, 90 on standup- thats a nice blend. The ONLY reason that BJJ leads to better ground fighters is because in a 2 hour class, you're pretty much working on ground fighting techniques for the whole 2 hours. BJJ is groundfighting to the extreme- if you put a BJJ fighter against a Judoka who have both been training for the same amount of time, the BJJ'er will win on the ground everytime. Three or four classes of Judo for this practicioner (if according to the ratio of ground/standup work I mentioned before) are needed to match the time of one BJJ class. Lets also not forget that the BJJ fighter is going to have a wider arsenal of techniques as well. Like I said, Judo will make you a good groundfighter- there no doubt about it. Its not that Judo doesnt do enough ground work, but more that BJJ just does too much. Know what Im saying?

Usually a certificate from the Brazilian Federation is the best way to verify whether or not someone is legit. Another way is to check BJJ.org and trace the teachers lineage (though its a bit out of date). You could also visit different websites (preferably BJJ ones) and simply ask around for someone's credentials.

Martial Arts Books I'd Like to See... Brazilian JiuJitsu Throwing Techniques -- This four-page book is a compendium of useful techniques to get your opponent between your legs. The Speedy Hands of Tai Chi Chuan -- Three Time Chinese Tai Chi Chuan Champion reveals how to speed up your techniques. Iaido: Drawing the Samurai Sword -- Special methods for drawing swords in pen or charcoal I saw on another webpage: BJJ takedowns- 101 ways to pull guard. And yeah, Im one of those annoying people that pulls guard in a tournament If Judo Players Ruled the World by Neil Ohlenkamp Brazilian Jiujitsu students would all develop a painful rash on their backs so they would have to fight standing up. To increase training opportunities, bars and nightclubs would be required to have mats Mats would stay clean by themselves Only sports that can be done barefoot would be allowed on TV After every tournament the competitors would get a chance to randori with the referees Judo Humor Page: http://www.judoinfo.com/humor8.htm

Hehe, heres a few good ones: One of my favorite lines to hear from TMA'ers- and here it is: >>>One style is not better than another -- it's the individual that counts. Please don't go to another school. >>>Practice makes perfect. Please sign up again. >>>The martial arts are about building character You'll never be any good, but keep coming anyways >>>Grappling arts are the best. I practice a grappling art. >>>He's a good martial arts teacher. He's in my organization >>>Kata or forms are useless Bruce Lee said forms are useless >>>He doesn't deserve his rank I didn't get promoted as fast as him For the rest of them, visit the Judo Humor Page: http://www.judoinfo.com/humor13.htm

Im actually surprised that many people dont give Judo its merits as a good self defense system. A quality Judoka can land a nice hard throw on someone, often landing on top of them in the process. If Judo guys are excellent in their takedowns, then its not going to be all that difficult to take the fight to the ground. A nice hard throw on a hard surface certainly does hurt (and take the wind out of you). Consider Wanderlie Silva vs Hidehiko Yoshida in their Pride matchup- Yoshida took down Wanderlie 3x, and Wanderlie is pretty tough to take down. When Wanderlie got too aggressive with his strikes, Yoshida would simply close the distance and wrap him in a wrestlers headlock (since he had no gi or grips to use) and launched some quality throws. On the ground, the fight was a lot closer, simply because Silva has trained alot in BJJ. But a guy that doesnt know how to fight on the ground or break fall? He'll get hurt real fast.

[quote name="WolverineGuy Gumbi' date=' THAT is the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard. I'll admit that SOME judo schools focus too much on stand up, but the ground game is very important in most judo schools. Remember your roots. Apparantly, you've never competed against a judoka...or at least, a good one.[/quote] Hey, we're not saying that you cant learn quality ground work at a Judo school- its just simply you arent going to get as good on the ground doing Judo instead of BJJ. Let me explain, in Judo, there are no points given out on the ground, and the only submissions allowed are locks at the elbow and choke holds. You also are not allowed to choke across the face, or put any pressure to the face for that matter. So, in Judo, tucking your chin is all one needs to do to defend a choke from the best ground fighters. In BJJ, no one cares if you tuck your chin- they'll continue to choke you until they break your jaw. At any time during a Judo match, if your opponent lifts you off the mat, matte is called and you resume standing. This goes for submission holds too. You have no idea how many Judokas attempt to escape submissions such as choke holds and armbars by simply trying to lift my back off the ground. This works in Judo, but in a fight, you want to do the complete opposite- lifting your opponent leads to a broken arm. The other means to win a match is by pinning someone, but this by no means does anything in a real fight. BJJ if you're caught in cross side, no big deal- work an elbow escape and try to get back to the guard. In Judo, you can escape a pin simply by going to your stomach (giving your back) and waiting for tech break. Thats practical suicide in a fight. I train in BJJ, but Im also smart enough to train with the Judo guys at my school so as to train my standup. When the Judo guys want to work on their groundwork- they come to the BJJ classes- its pretty obvious. The reason for this is quite simply the rules of the competition. Judo doesnt reward for improving position on the ground, whereas BJJ gives points for attaining the best positions in a fight. Its the RULES and OBJECTIVES of the two styles that set them apart. No one said the techniques of BJJ are better than Judo, simply because they're all pretty much identical. Its the OBJECTIVES of the two sports that make the difference. I've trained with quality Judo guys, but our games are just like our styles- If I try to stand and trade takedowns with one of the Judokas, im getting tossed all over the place. But on the ground, the fight favors me. As you can see, I actively train in both, so I obviously appreciate Judo, but I certainly dont go over there to train my ground techniques. I give Judo its credit. What I think is happening is people dont want to give BJJ its credit- its groundfighting IS better than Judo's- just as Judo's standup is better than BJJ's. If every BJJ'er admits that Judo guys have better takedowns, why cant Judo players simply admit that BJJ guys have better ground skills? No one is saying one is better than the other. Indeed, Judo is where BJJ starts, and BJJ is where Judo ends.

[quote name="WolverineGuy Gumbi' date=' THAT is the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard. I'll admit that SOME judo schools focus too much on stand up, but the ground game is very important in most judo schools. Remember your roots. Apparantly, you've never competed against a judoka...or at least, a good one.[/quote] Hey, we're not saying that you cant learn quality ground work at a Judo school- its just simply you arent going to get as good on the ground doing Judo instead of BJJ. Let me explain, in Judo, there are no points given out on the ground, and the only submissions allowed are locks at the elbow and choke holds. You also are not allowed to choke across the face, or put any pressure to the face for that matter. So, in Judo, tucking your chin is all one needs to do to defend a choke from the best ground fighters. In BJJ, no one cares if you tuck your chin- they'll continue to choke you until they break your jaw. At any time during a Judo match, if your opponent lifts you off the mat, matte is called and you resume standing. This goes for submission holds too. You have no idea how many Judokas attempt to escape submissions such as choke holds and armbars by simply trying to lift my back off the ground. This works in Judo, but in a fight, you want to do the complete opposite- lifting your opponent leads to a broken arm. The other means to win a match is by pinning someone, but this by no means does anything in a real fight. BJJ if you're caught in cross side, no big deal- work an elbow escape and try to get back to the guard. You'd be surprised how many Judo guys willingly turn to their stomach and flatten out, giving me their back. Thats practical suicide in a fight. I train in BJJ, but Im also smart enough to train with the Judo guys at my school so as to train my standup. When the Judo guys want to work on their groundwork- they come to the BJJ classes- its pretty obvious. The reason for this is quite simply the rules of the competition. Judo doesnt reward for improving position on the ground, whereas BJJ gives points for attaining the best positions in a fight. Its the RULES and OBJECTIVES of the two styles that set them apart. No one said the techniques of BJJ are better than Judo, simply because they're all pretty much identical. Its the OBJECTIVES of the two sports that make the difference. And I've trained with some of the top Judoka's in the country- one from Eastern Europe who was ranked top 10 in the country I believe, and 2 more who are primed for the Olympics. The Judo instructors over there are smart- they arent closed minded. They realize BJJ is better on the ground, so they use that to compliment their Judo game. A few BJJ'ers who care about takedowns with the gi are also smart as well, as we take Judo classes to improve our takedowns. Even take Royce Gracie vs Yoshida- Yoshida is a gold medalist, arguably one of the best in his division in the world. Royce certainly isnt the best at light heavy anymore, yet he mutilated him on the ground.

Thats the most ridiculous statement I've heard. Judo is notorious for standup. BJJ for the ground. The rules in Judo are sport oriented whereas the rules in BJJ are oriented more towards a fight. On top of that, only subs at the elbow and chokes are allowed in Judo. Why cant Judo fighters face facts? BJJ guys do all the time- when they want to learn takedowns, they learn wrestling and Judo. Why cant a Judoka just accept that for more complete ground work, he needs BJJ?

Judo is usually much cheaper than BJJ, however, you have to take into account what the quality of skill of the Judoka you're learning under is. (lot more Judo BB's than Jiu Jitsu BB's) As far as Hapkido having ANY ground work, Im surprised to hear this- I never thought it had any. If anyone saw Gracies in Action, the Hapkido instructors seem to not know how to escape from the mounted position, let alone prevent a basic takedown.

The reason why you dont see this is because the idea of using a closed guard is to break your opponents base forward- so when you pull your opponent closer, your knees flair out and vice versa. As far as just locking your legs out straight, it really isnt going to do much. You'll allow your opponent to base up where he wants to be, and from there, hes simply going to break your guard and start working on the pass. If you have long enough legs, you can lock a triangle around your opponent's waist. This works most effectively when you have an opponents back (its used alot in no gi grappling) and thats when you can really squeeze the * out of your opponent AND attack him at the same time. Its a very low percentage sub from the guard, and simply put, you need to open your guard to benefit from most BJJ guard techniques.

As far as real world applications, BJJ is obviously you're best solution. As for ruling out Judo, its more applicable than TJJ. I have yet to hear a good thing about small circle jiu jitsu or whatever it is- Looks more like TJJ than BJJ. Generally, you want to be able to actively spar with your opponents in whatever style you take up- and I mean spar full out where you try to get him and try your best to keep him from getting you- not sparring where you just go through the motions like you would a kata.

They're both close to the same thing (sportive wise) with absolute victory attained by a perfect throw. Pinning applies in both, however, unlike Judo, guard does not stop a pin in Sambo. As far as subs go, chokes and locks at the elbow joint in Judo, and knee/footlocks in sambo (no chokes). Combat Sambo, however, has a wider range of submissions, including chokes.

There are many tall long limbed champions in Jiu Jitsu, and the successful ones in MMA often fit that figure. Longer limbs allows for more reach around opponents and submissions such as arm triangle are made easier if you've got longer arms. Bony limbs too also work quite well when applying many submissions, such as tendon slicers and many footlocks. Then from the bottom of course theres always the triangle with long legs as you mentioned, but then longer legs also means you can keep your opponent further away and defend more effectively from punches from the top. To be fair though, there are SO many techniques in Jiu Jitsu, that every body type has its advantages and disadvatages.

Who told you that? They're called the Gracies, and the techniques in Jiu Jitsu (Brazilian anyways) are geared towards leverage rather then strength. Longer limbs allows for greater leverage.

If you do all 3 you could screw your head up. Alot of different fighting styles have different approaches to how you should fight. If the kickboxing class is some cardio workout bullshit, I'd ditch it. If they actually teach you boxing techniques and dont do point sparring, then its probably your best bet. You'll also have to find out what kind of Ju Jitsu they're doing too (personally I dont like training with a dress on, but some places train with their ninja uniforms on.... and that is totally sweet)

It depends on what kind of Ju Jitsu you're talking about. There are several schools of Japanese Ju Jitsu, each of them focusing on one particular aspect of combat. Japanese Ju Jitsu is indeed a complete martial art, with strikes, throws, and submissions. Some JJJ schools were reknown for their throwing techniques (looking like Judo) some more for their striking techniques (looks like some types of kung fu perhaps) and then some using more ground fighting (looking like submission wrestling) Then there is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (spelled Jiu to distinguish from the Japanese schools). BJJ focuses mostly on ground work, and a lot of emphasis is placed on guard work- whether it be passing from the top or submitting/sweeping from the bottom. BJJ also has minor clinchwork (included are knees and elbows) escapes from holds (standing or on the ground) and takedowns which are primarily Judo. The biggest difference between JJJ and BJJ is all BJJ schools have heavy emphasis on ground fighting as well as heavy emphasis on live training with your partners so as to learn how to fight against a live resisting opponent.