White Warlock

As i mentioned in a few past posts, aikido is far more effective than most people give it credit for. I wouldn't necessarily call it a 'pre-fight' system, as i would call it an 'alternative to fighting' system. Aikido gives you the 'option' not to use deadly force. I have taken people down that were running, thinking of attacking, were attacking others, and also that were attacking me. It is applicable, but i will agree that, without the mental ammo to end the confrontation without resorting to more extreme acts of violence, it's merely a practice in futility. If your intent is to maim or kill someone, then starting out with aikido is ridiculous. On the other hand, if you can see that the confrontation can be resolved without having to resort to mutilation or murder, then verbal communication and systems like aikido are definitely options that could be available to you... if you had spent the time to study them in the first place. And, as always.... it's not the style, but the person who uses a style and his ability to gauge the degree of violence necessary to neutralize the threat.

I recall a similar incident with a returning fellow student when studying san soo. The returning student performed all his techniques will little concern for the welfare of his partners. I'm very skilled in falling and absorbing hits, but i knew if this guy practiced with anyone else, he was going to hurt someone. Moreso, he really didn't seem to care. I asked him to chill, but he didn't... so i eventually lost a bit of my cool and when it came my time to react to one of his attacks, i took him out too fast and too hard for my liking. I later spoke to the instructor about my concerns and how this guy had succeeded in getting under my skin (which is exceedingly hard to do, btw). To his credit, the instructor met with the student privately and gave him a talk on the issues he needs to work with before he would be allowed back in class. I do agree, speak your personal thoughts to the instructor. Sometimes instructors see things, but they're not sure if its some biased response. Affirmation will help him to make the right decision.

Just wanted to clarify that my "Batman" comment was in jest and not meant to be derogatory. As to Miyamoto Musashi, i'm somewhat a fan of his work, "The Book of Five Rings." However, i do not recall any instance where he fought over four opponents simultaneously. Now, when i first saw this thread, i had made the erroneous assumption this request was for 'unarmed' scenarios. So, when you brought up Musashi, the thought came to me that Musashi was wielding weapons, which dramatically changes the dynamics of a multi-opponent scenario and was not applicable to the initial request. Looking back, i see the initial poster did not specify. Okay, enough of that... I was working in mental health for a few years and the standard means to deal with patients, or would-be patients, was to tackle them enmasse. Most of the health workers were ill-trained, and thus performed a somewhat haphazard mob scene when attempting to deal with out-of-control patients. In truth, i wasn't a health worker. I was a computer dude that was constantly on the floor, but had volunteered to assist and train, and thus became certified and an active participant (i simply didn't like watching these n00bs struggling to deal with the patients and getting hurt all the time). Those whose job it was to deal with violent incidents were called mental health workers. Psychiatrists and nurses were not required to assist, and most preferred not to. This created a bit of a problem sometimes, with some psyche nurses knowing full well they could treat the patients like crap and not have to deal with the consequences of their actions. It's a rather unfair situation for the health workers to be in, primarily because patients are already considered 'mentally unfit,' therefore if they hurt anyone, and is taken to court for it... the 'insanity' plea is automatically accepted. Health workers, on the other hand, are in a double-jeopardy situation. Not only can they be tried for assault and battery if they use excessive force, but they can also lose their job and be prevented from ever working in the health industry again... regardless of whether they get convicted or not. In fact, a warranted complaint is sufficient. An additional important note is that many of the patients i experienced... were actually quite sane. Indeed, some were in the center as a way of avoiding going to prison... so don't start visualizing all the patients as 'ineffective.' Some were actually quite dangerous and had a long record of putting health workers in the hospital. Anyway, standard training shows to avoid the patient's face (spitting, biting, etc), as such, most health workers just sort of dogpile (a note, thier also not supposed to be 'on top' of the patients... but some rules are meant to be broken) and then each dedicates themselves to a specific portion of the body (arms, legs, torso, head). After that, straps are applied or the person is carried, by the limbs and torso, to a seclusion room. Of the witnessed and participated incidents, it is usually one health worker... most often the one with more talent or bulk, that acts first and ends up leading the assault. Most everyone surrounds the patient and then the gutsy (or stupid) worker acts. Sometimes its the patient that rushes, in which case the lead is usually the one who has to deal with the initial assault, while the rest start scrambling for position and opportunity behind and to the side of the patient. A common misnomer is that health workers often use heavily padded blankets to deal with hostile patients. I say it is a misnomer, because it is rare that workers get the opportunity to even chase a friggin' blanket. In almost all cases, it's happening right then and there. No time for makeup and eyeliner. Okay, so here's one incident (plenty more where this came from, but not really wanting to write a pile of short stories at the moment): A patient was swinging a heavy belt around with intent. About 15 or so health workers were all standing there for what seemed like minutes, unwilling to pounce for fear of getting hurt. This was my first day on the floor, certified to intervene. I initially was going to let someone else lead, but... nobody was acting. So, on the swing of the belt, i charged in, took ahold of the patient's weapon arm and swung behind him. I then grabbed his other arm and held him restrained in a cross-like pose. A few seconds later, the health workers snapped out of it (many had not realized i was certified to intervene... others were simply too busy watching the show to remember that they had a job) and ganged on him, taking him down, then restraining him.

Based on your last post, i'm not keen with what's going on there. Your instructor seems to have a personal agenda, which could place you in harm's way. I.e., he's attempting to advance you and others so that you guys can compete and win some trophies so he can brag about how good a school he has. But, what's more likely going to happen is, you and the rest of your mates are going to walk into a competition and get carried out on stretchers.

So did Batman

I read this once before, but appreciate having the chance to read it again.

/me smacks delta1

San soo translates to mean "sparring" or "fighting." So, basically, what is generally practiced in the class is the san soo of tsoi li hoi fut hung-ga. There is a lot of contention on the 'exact' history of tsoi li hoi fut hung-ga, as there is with just about every Chinese martial art system. I wouldn't give such arguments much credence. Instead, you should check out the system itself. You'll see, in no time, this isn't some makeshift backyard wannabe style. In its beautiful simplicity there lies an underlying complexity rivaling the vast majority of martial art systems pounding the streets for attention today. In no uncertain terms, this is a style that has come full circle, which in itself shows its authenticity and ancient roots. But, it's silly to waste time and energy attempting to defend the validity of a system's origins. What truly matters is if one learns and grows from it. That the system is viable and is not diluted by false applications and claims of mystical abilities. San soo is real, it's ugly, it's in-your-face. A lot of people don't like that, but it's not the responsibility of a san soo instructor to cater to the squeamish expectations of prey. Instead, its their responsibility to snap them out of this 'victim' mentality.

Will agree with Delta1 on this, except to add that i've always felt this to be a lot of mystical silliness, at least in the assumption of being able to perform such while actually being in a physical confrontation, but moreso on my personal belief it's just a lot of mystical silliness. I generally don't make noises, unless it comes out of me naturally for the occasion. Such as the times i rushed in growling, or the times i was caught by surprise, in which i found myself popping out with a guttural growl-like bark. Occasionally i do a long-release lifting-type growl when throwing or 'forcing' someone off balance. When working with blades, i tend to breath with the ol' "shhhh" sound effects. Entertaining thread

Ahh, my error. I misread your post. Apologies due, expect a kewpie doll in the mail.

ahh, good reason. hehe

why?

With only the information you presented, I would tend to go along with the 'kneejerk' idea that if the students don't want to be there, and you don't want to put up with it... or the attitude of those 4 are hurting the class as a whole, discontinue instructing them. Nobody is forcing you to teach, and if they are... do like Spartacus. However, i would like to know more information. Is it karate they don't like, other students, the fact they would 'prefer' to be doing something else... or what? Finding out what the kids don't like is not nearly as important as finding out what they do like, and no amount of guessing is going to gain satisfactory answers within a reasonable amount of time. You may also want to consider what it is the parents are trying to keep the kids 'away' from. It may be that they're wasting too much time with video games at home, watching too much tv, socializing with the wrong sorts (yes, even at age 10 that can happen), etc. It may be that the parents aren't showing you the whole picture and that you're assuming the parents are stupid, when in fact they're merely desperate. A personal thought aelfbird. Running on the little information provided and on my few years of study in child psychology, it seems to me those kids are attempting to play one parent against the other, you being one of the parents. Happens quite frequently in elementary schools actually, where the student manipulates the teacher into siding with the student. Without first attempting to gain insight into the entire picture, the teacher then ends up almost dictating to the parents. You may have projected to the parents the 'agenda' of the kids, and the parents may have subconsciously recognized this, and closed it down. This would give the impression that they are being stubborn. I suspect a little bit of histrionics is in the mix here.

Definitely don't take me as an expert in Chinese. I'm basing it on what i was told by silly little monkeys vying for power. Friggin' tangentializer

You might want to check with your sensei first. If he doesn't approve of your goals and doesn't provide options for you, you'll have to decide whether you wish to continue being his student. Not all, but many teachers feel a sense of betrayal when you go 'outside' of the school to obtain your agenda. Even moreso if they could have helped you with it themselves. Just a courtesy rule of thumb. If your sensei presents himself as openminded, or willing to assist you in your endeavors, your halfway there. My recommend is to start there and ask more questions here if, after doing such, you don't get the answers, guidance, or response you had expected or hoped for.

joint injuries do tend to take longer to heal. Ice regularly (it's a small appendage, so no more than 10 minutes at a time or you'll be hindering the healing process, rather than helping it). You may also want to get it xrayed, just in case.

How much experience have you had? Would be helpful if you gave us a clue as to what your qualifications are.

Other karateforums related threads: http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=12274&highlight=san+soo http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=12371&highlight=san+soo http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=11282&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=san+soo

You are thinking of san shou, which was born in the early/mid 20th century due to Chinese martial arts systems losing in the thai boxing arena. San shou eventually obtained its own degree of credibility. San soo is a legitimate kung fu style (in the sense of what 'legitimate' stands for within the context of these discussions) and a completely different animal than that of san shou. Its lineage is well documented and follows closely that of tsoi li fut (choy li fut). As i noted earlier, the actual name of the system is tsoi li hoi fut hung-ga. It was later given the name of san soo, by Jimmy Woo, because san soo was an 'easier' name for Americans to remember than tsoi li hoi fut hung-ga. In actuality, it is supposed to be called tsoi-ga li-ga hoi-ga fut-ga hung-ga, yet even the Chinese version was shortened.

San soo, otherwise known as tsoi li hoi fut hung-ga, incorporates tsoi-ga (punches, kicks, and other strikes), li-ga (leverages, throws, and locks... actually... breaks), hoi-ga (pressure points and vital areas... anatomy and exploitation of such), fut-ga (mind over body, psychology of war), and hung-ga (power, a basic study of physic and metaphysics, as applied to martial arts). Will chat more later. gotta run.

Well, when i took down that guy i mentioned in that other thread, i had just 6 hours earlier pulled out my back. In addition, i was getting physical therapy for my shoulders and am up for knee surgery. Point being, i practice and beat myself into physical disability, but am not easily beat. Essentially, despite my injuries, i could walk circles around the majority of Joes in the street. Had i not practiced and subjected myself to the potential for injury, what's to say i wouldn't have gotten injured in other ways... and be in an even more 'susceptible' state? Actually... nothing. The truth is, most of my injuries were initially due to auto/motorcycle accidents, and not the martial arts. My lower back went out that night because i carried some huge, freaky odd-shaped pieces of furniture up two flights of concrete stairs, knowing full-well my osteopath had just performed manipulations to it earlier in the day and told me to lay off it. My shoulders were exacerbated due to not stretching before having to help hoist about a hundred boxes, each weighing 50lb+. The knee was initially damaged in my first skiing experience, then later exacerbated when a kid got overzealous during a wrestling training session, and dislocated it. The real question is... do you want to play it safe, but not gain skills necessary to protect your life, or are you willing to accept some injuries, knowing you're not only increasing your overall ability to defend yourself from far more life-threatening injuries, but also making yourself more complete? After all, the goal in a conflict is to stay alive, not to stay uninjured. Last, even with all my injuries that day, i felt nothing, nor was it likely that any of the injuries i held onto would have prevented me from performing near to 100%. And... my 100%, without attempting to sound too egotistical, is far more than Average Joe's 100%.

Sorry, can't relate. Perfection has its drawbacks i suppose.

Titles, names, belts... pfft. I'm me, i've studied, i continue to study. Student, master, grandmaster, supergrandmaster of the umpteenth order. White belt, black belt, black/white belt, uber-glowing belt of the gods. Coach, teacher, sifu, sensei, croissant, sashimi, Grand-champion of Donuts. Who cares? Just study and grow. Be a student... for life. Show and share to those indicating sincere interest. Someone wants to name you, label you, award you pretty little colorful strips of cloth... that's their choice. I do not disrespect those who hold titles, but i do lose some for those who insist their title be respected. I respect the person, not the totem.

I do agree it is a good example of how aikido, and some of the other soft arts, can play a role in increasing your options on just how much force you need apply, thereby helping you to stay out of the range of lawsuits and jail time. As an example, I encouraged a friend of mine to study wing chun, which he did for 3 years. But, when he almost 'accidently' smacked his own sister, and pretty well freaked about that, it became apparent to me he needed to relearn degrees. Essentially, the all or nothing he was exposed to in wing chun was overshadowing his natural ability to gauge and apply appropriate force. So, i pushed him to study aikido, and now he is far more balanced. In this particular case, i applied just enough force to manage the situation and not escalate it. Had i applied more force, i may have had a fight on my hands. If i had applied less, same result. Gauging, in my opinion, is an essential 'civilized society' oriented skill. Yes, it does suck and pretty much defeats the purpose of us having them there in the first place. It does, however, bring light to some of my personal experiences with them not acting on the few occasions they were 'lucky enough' to be right where a crime was being committed. And yes Delta1, it is a good thing not to rely on the the police. Moreso in many third world countries than here in the U.S., but still nonetheless a critical insight into the concept of personal defense. Good insight and i believe you're right. I do recall that moment where his comment placed me in a psychologically disadvantageous position, which very likely prompted my sarcastic remark as a means to turn the table and remove the tiny fragment of doubt that slipped into my consciousness. "His verbal kung fu was good, but not as good as mine." Seriously though, this is an important element that i will give more 'awareness' to in the future, as it may have been the pivotal action in the entire incident and the underlying reason why he seemed to confuse me with a Borg.

Sounds like a lot of redundancy going on there.