Akima

TKD is not TKD on the ground. The answers posted are good answers, But the answers assume the attacker is not all over you preventing you from being able to kick, or punch. You need to get out of the ground situation before TKD can at all be effective.

Would people PLEASE stop quoting Bruce Lee's characters in movies,... especially when it's totally out of context [bruce DID do breaking, the character was just responding to the other character's "show" ). quote] Read the whole thread and not just my comment and you will see that I used the the quote in the same context! Which is why I said it

Boards don't hit back

Just keep fighting taller people. learn to move quickly and at angles. don't fight on the line. Get off the train tracks when they come at you. Some the the best fighters I know are short people. Thye needed to learn to be smarter fighters and did not let size limit them. A lot of this should come to you as you progress. A good teacher should be able to coach you through this. I have seen a 5'2" girl beat a 6'5" guy in point fighting consitantly. He is snot used to people getting inside and has no defense. She knows the only way to win is to move inside. But don't quit. I remember a quote, and I think is was Bruce Lee or may be someone speaking about him, "only in the martial arts and a little man walk tall." Part of martial arts is learning to deal with what you have and use it to your advantage.

TSD is an off shoot of Karate, specifically shotokan. If you cannot see the similarities in the styles then you are probably not learning TSD. May I ask if either of you are associated with any of the TSD federations? Jase, It looks like you are associated with WTSDF.

I never said techniques are exactly the same. But at basic level they are too similar to discount a connection. I have never found a reference to Kee having a shotokan teacher. He did admit to studying a book on Japanese Karate. I find it difficult to believe that he picked up all the details of Karate from a book . Let assume he did, it still means that he based much of the style on Japanese Karate. Most likely Shotokan. Why would he hide learning from a Kind Japanese person? becuase to admit that anything in his style was not purely Korean would be Political suicide for his school. And During the occupation, not only was learning Japanese arts illegal, so was practicing anything Korean! In fact, that was even more dangerous because as part of the assimilation of culture, the Japanese banned everything Korean. "Tang Soo Do has its roots in Korean Kwon Bop"..."He was already considered somewhat of an expert in kwon bop at age 22 in 1936 " How is this possible? Kwan Bop is the "boxing section" of the Muye Dobo Tong Ji. Kee discover this maunual in 1957. This is also the same section that references Subahk. So how can this art be based on something the founder discovered say 20 years after creating the art? It was this discovery that led to Kee changing the name of the art to Soo Bahk Do. What did he base TSD on before then? Whatever it was, sure looks like Karate. It is unlikely he learned any chinese style, when after 1931 Manchuria was under the control the Japanese. And if he did, why are a majority of TSD techniques hard style? Kee, did incorporate matierial from the Muye Dobo Tong Ji into MDK/TSD, but he did so long after TSD had be established as being Japanse Karate with Korean style kicking.

Jase, Why are the stances and techniques in TSD and TKD both so much like Shotokan? Why are the forms the same ( or in the case of TKD the patterns)? As I recall, Kee trained in shotokan before leaving occupied Korea before taking up Chinese arts in the 1920's while working in China. I really think you need to look into other sources of history rather than rely on the history according the Korean masters. Not that their histories do no have value, but they really are just one side of the issue.

Jase, Sorry, but the style is only 60 years old. I know you probably want to say it's thoughsands of years old but it is not. Yes there were korean martial arts, and yes GM Kee did incorporate techniques from the ancient text into modern soo bahk do, but this was all after he firmly established TSD as it is today. The techniques and form patterns are base on Shotokan, just like TKD. You need to take Asian history with a grain of salt. In Korea they are still trying very hard to wipe the stain of the Japanese occupation away. They are very very sensitive to anything being labled Japanese or having Japanese orgins. It's all over Asia. There's is constant academic arguments over the nationality of aniquities and sites. Yes, TKD and TSD do favor high kicking (TKD more so) This is mainly due to high kicks scoring more points in tournaments.

I have been Korea, and that stone carving could be a guy doing Tai chi. Considering that all of TSD forms are taken from Karate, I don't buy that it's that old. Did Koreans have ancient forms of MA, yes every civiliation does in some way. Is it anything like modern Korean arts...NO

GM Kee translated an ancient korean military manul. It referenced some hand to hand fighting reffered to a "subahk". He began to add those techniques to his style, and changed the name to Soo Bahk Do. I haven't run into a school that teaches "soo bahk Do" but in all of Kee's writtings and his son's the term is always Trade Marked. Based on GM Kee's books, the only difference I can see is that Soo Bahk Do is the Official style of GM Kee, and you would have pay "royalites" for the name.

The site lacks details such as the programs, costs, and obligations. These are the three things that really show a McDojo.

I think you can tell from a website if a school is a Bad place to look. You can never tell if it's good, but you can rule one out.

DA, I just posted two links that refute your lie. I really don't need to post more. I really think you need to look into reading comprehension courses soon. I never said that KSW was japanese. I said I doubted it's origin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I also said that I could not find evidence one way or another. I also said the only confirmed traning I could find for Suh was that he trained in HKD. I did not then leap to claim that KSW was japanese. All I have done is doubt your claims and you get all upset and start resorting to lies and twisting everything I have said. What are you a first grader? You take everything I say you take out of context. It's like having a debate with the Special Olympics debate team.

No, But there a many that you can tell right off the bat are Mcdojo's. If you really want to dig into the site. Since there is no usefull information on the site, that could ba a bad sign. Not a red flag, but maybe a yellow flag. Having a 13 year old who is a 2nd dan, that's a red flag, but since it's only one red flag, it's not enough to truly rule it a McDojo. Now looking at that video you posted. That was funny, I needed a laugh, thanks

Go to the school and take a few classes before signing up. See if it's something you like. The website has no information to base a decision on.

I am not retacting a single thing. What you posted was a flat out lie. This destroys any crediblity to rest of your arugument. I am not going to waste my time arguing with you any longer. Korean MA is derived from Japanese styles. Is a fact!!!!!!! What you posted is obvious Korean Propaganda. Both Choi's, and Kee learned MA in Japan and began teaching after the occupation. These are all facts! http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/history.html http://www.mooto.com/eng/webzine/news_view.asp?news_no=776 As far as KSW goes, You still have only provided evidence other than Suh's own claim's of this, that and the other thing. Given your attitude and the fact that you now resorting to lies says a lot about you.

Blackbelt is a very bad magazine. It's better to check it out onces a month in boarders to scope the articles. In general it's not that great. Once in a while it is. I would recommend TKD times if you really want TKD news and info.

Claiming that Koreans influnced Karate, aikido or kendo is just a flat out lie and really shows the mentality of the people I am arguing with. First, the occupcation was longer than 36 years. Offical annexation may have been about 36 years. "That is, individual masters of their own particular martial art techniques tried to show theirs to be the "superior" Korean martial art." This is total *. You go ahead and believe the garbage you think you know. At least I can rest easy knowing what I know, or at least in the comforat that I don't believe everything that is told to me.

Put up or shut up. You have only answer with "Suh said..." Well my mom said the tooth ferry was real too. All I have asked for is some other source, and you continue to dodge the question. You have provided nothing more than "Suh said". Nilla Ice, I think you need to look into reading comprehension classes too. http://www.esylvan.com/BB/BBFundRead.aspx And TKD is a direct offshoot from shotokan and is no older than the 1950's despite what illusions you wish to use. It has nothing to do with his art. I just asked for some outside sources. If you can provide some that would be great, but I am guessing you cannot.

You still have failed to do the one thing I ask. PUT UP OR SHUT UP How hard is it that to do. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about because if you did you would actually have provided answers to any of my questions. So far all you have done and change the subject or go on a tangent. Answer the dang questions!!!! Suh himself claims to have studied with Choi! I am shocked that such an expert of KSW would not know this. If you would please bother to read, you would see that I never said all Korean styles derive from Japanese. And as far as KSW all I have said is people have told me it's a blend of HKD and Mantis style. Mantis is a Chinese style. Perhaps you should take a reading comprehension course? http://www.esylvan.com/BB/BBFundRead.aspx Then why is Suh the only person to have trained, why can no one else support his claims? O wait I asked that question and YOU DON'T KNOW!!!!!!!! All I have asked for is some supporting evidence. All I have asked is some answers from you. Perhaps my only error was in thinking you actually had some intelligence. I am starting to doubt if you even do KSW or any martial art because I have never converst with someone who down right refused to answer questions about their own style. You call critical skepticism Ignorance. Perhaps because my skepticism has revealed your own ignorance. There is really no point in continuing this. Like I said before. PUT UP OR SHUT UP!

try this http://www.wispertel.net/~inothstine/kibondonjak.html

I find the ki-bon patterns to be the worst documented patterns. This site has just about every Korean form pattern written up: http://paperwindow.com/tkd/patterns.htm Not sure if he's got the Ki Bon patterns, but I bet if you contact the guy who runs it, he could point you in the right direction.

I was simply refuting your claim that Korean government only supports true facts. And you're claiming KSW is not fruad with no proof to back it up. I have base no opinions on hearsay. I have asked you refute the "hearsay" I have found, and you obviously cannot. That is spin! Now, you could say "Most contemporary Korean martial arts HAVE NAMES based on the ancient traditional Korean styles to some extent." HKD is directly decendant from Aikijujitsu. Suh studied under Grandmaster Yong-Sool Choi . That is the only verifyable fact I can find on Suh's training. Now before you start misunderstanding this statement, I am not saying that Suh did not study other arts. I am saying that there is no proof that he study secret Korean MA like he cliams. Once again, I have asked you to refute what I have find, and I have asked for support evidence of your position. You cannot do either. Like I said before, TELL ME WHERE TO FIND IT IF YOU'RE SO SMART. YOU HAVE DODGED EVERY SINGLE QUESTION I HAVE ASKED. In closing, only a fool accepts unsupport claims he is told as fact without at least looking for other evidence, or questioning the validity of those claims. I have a bridge here in Brooklyn I can sell you too. Your ablilty to present an argument is laughable at best. PUT UP OR SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You still have provided no evidence. The Korean Government also claims that TKD is totally Korean, and we all know it is not. That is exactly what they did with TKD I never called you a fruad, but I am beginning to suspect you are. I never said that KSW was japanese. I did say that people I have spoken to who have studied claim it HKD combined with Chinese Mantis style. Seem to belive his claims!!!! Exactly No one else can say for sure. The only thing that is proven is he studied HKD. I keep asking for other evidence. I research information, confront you with what I found, and never once have you answered anything I presented to you. The burden of the argument is on you. I have seriously done research in this and have found nothing to back up your claims. You obviously do not know much more about KSW than I do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have been open minded to your cliams, Why don't you try to be open minded to possiblty that you could be wrong? Because there is no eveidence one way or the other in this argument, and that is all I have said all along.

I am growing very sick of your attitude. I have asked some very legitimate questions and you have done nothing to answer them. You claim my argument is a contradiction. Did I not admit that the other sources that claim KSW is not Korean could not be corroborated? I was giving you the benefit to respond to their claims. I have asked repeatedly for a reference other than GM Suh himself that can support his claim that he studied secret Korean MA with Monks. You obviously can provide NONE! As for the gentleman who was not able to study other MA, I suspected it was the policy of HIS school. Not KSW. Ok and you're just going to accept what ever is told to you. Why can I not find any source other than SUH to support his claims? Why is it after the war, Suh is the only person who went to learn all these secret arts? He is the only person making such claims. And you cannot provide any other evidence. Seriously, don't bother answering this unless you can provide some sort of reference to support SUH's claims. I have been researching this for 4 days now, and every source cites Suh's claims and nothing else.