Shorin Ryuu

Hey Andrew_Patton, who is your instructor? I noticed you did Kobayashi as well. Edit: I noticed you use the Matayoshi Kobudo system. Does that mean your instructor is Tadashi Yamashita or you trace your lineage that way? Edit2: I'm dumb and didn't see the "Yamashita" further down in your profile...just forget I ever asked.

Goodness. I didn't expect much, but the mechanics, positioning and execution of all the moves were just terrible. It may still be an entertaining movie, but from what that clip showed, the fight scenes leave a bit to be desired. Of course, we don't hire actors to be good fighters, so what can you expect?

Do you mean two finger pushups using just one hand? I'm not quite at that level yet (not that it was really something I've ever made a concerted effort towards). If you mean two finger pushups using two hands, then I can do that (One finger and one thumb). The key to being able to do these is to be good at regular pushups FIRST. Otherwise, it'll just cause too much strain on your fingers. As someone mentioned, you start with four fingers and work your way downwards. I find it useful also to do it with all five fingers. I doesn't look "as cool", but you work the whole hand rather than that just the isolated sections. Of course, you can mix and match and vary what you do. It is also advisable to not let your finges splay outwards when you do these, which is the natural reaction. That can hurt the pads of your fingers. These things are useful for grip and whatnot, but I think there are better exercises to do them with less risk of injury.

The bo is a fairly common weapon. It is easy to find people who teach it, albeit with varying degrees of practicality and effectiveness.

The objection I have to people learning dodging by having stuff thrown at you is your instinctual reactions (which is what you are developing) may or may not be the best for your balance training and/or be the movements you want to do when you are fighting. The best way is simply efficiency. This means moving as little as possible. I can't speak for the kata you do (if you do them), but a lot of the kata teach avoidance maneuvers in many ways and can be as simple as how the foot steps forward, back, across or to the side (and however many variations you can come up with). That being said, I think footwork is the most important thing. Footwork and coordinating the hips and your center of gravity with them. Too many people try to avoid by bending the upper body in strange and interesting contortions, but I don't think that's the best way to go about doing them. You may not always have to move your hips or your feet in every case, but you get the picture. Translating theory (kata) into practice requires the use of a good partner who will actually punch/grab/kick/whatever are you. It is too often the case in many places whatever the style that people do not direct techniques at you and either shortcut or direct them away from you. Because of this, you must always ensure that any partner you have is doing his part correctly as well. I'm obviously not advocating going pell-mell and full force all the time (at least not until you are comfortable), but unless you both do the techniques correctly, you both are hurting your training.

Perhaps this should be in the health section? *pokes the powers-that-be* Anyway, as far as diet goes, don't do anything faddish. I could give you my diet, which is little meat, non-processed foods, no junk food and adequate levels of protein and fat. The best advice for this is to just study up on nutrition. I always plug The Okinawa Program, which is a book with very nice nutritional info. I don't follow the program per se, but I use some of the guidelines to eat healthy. I use less meat for my protein source, using soy and fish instead. I mentioned I didn't eat junk food, which is easier to do than most people think. http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=15913&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight= If you are going to work your body hard, it is important you get all the vitamins and nutrition that it will need to recover. As far as running goes, make sure you start ramping up on that gradually. A mile is a good distance to start. Depending on how ambitious you are, you can slowly ramp up to 4-5 miles or so. Anything more and you'll just be training for running itself. If your body isn't used to it, the continual action of jumping up and down (which is what running really is) could be bad for your joints if you start heavy right away. As for me, I run every other day and lift weights with my legs afterwards. The other days are my upper body days. I pretty much do karate and kobudo every day. Saturday is usually my day off, where I do light kata work or something. It is important to let your body rest, especially if you are pushing it pretty hard. Another way to build up the cardio is to swim, which is demanding but safer for your joints. If you ask me, the best bet is to start everything now at a mimimal level. That will allow you to get better in the long run rather than do an intense ramp-up as the test approaches. Not so that you'll be super ready for the test, but because you just want to be in shape in general. I disagree with the whole notion of a "test", let alone some huge milestone of extreme physical exertion. While it does seem to have motivated you, it also has framed your referece to "I have to get ready for this test" rather than "I want to get better". Don't get me wrong, you're probably already motivated and in decent shape, and you want to get better for the sake of getting better too. I just think it adds some artificiality to everything. Back on topic, as far as lifting goes, there are numerous topics dedicated to that in the health section, I believe. I leave all that to others, as I do only somewhat marginal lifting. On the days I run, I also use leg-machines at the gym. On the days I don't, I use Okinawan hojo undo (kind of archaic training devices like jars and stone locks) that focuses on various martial arts muscles. Best of luck to you whatever you decide. Edit: Oh yeah, and drink plenty of water. Whatever you do, don't factor water weight into your weight loss calculations...

From what I read, it may be related to Chinto, but is pretty different. Supposedly in the old days, masters would train "Chinti" with bamboo tied or strapped to their arms. Itosu taught it "partially" to Mabuni and others, leading to a pretty different Okinawan and Japanese version of it (and a more Shotokan version that has some "sparring" hops in it not found elsewhere). As usual, the Sells book was my source for this.

There are many theories on the origin of the sai. I've never actually heard the fishing one before. I'm of the opinion that they were always weapons imported from China before they came to Okinawa. The sai was more common of a weapon amongst of the upper class or law enforcement. An island nation, the Ryukyus had no iron ore per se and the majority of all metal was imported (meaning it cost a lot). In contrast to more common tools like the kama, it required much more metal to make, as the bladed weapons could be hammered thin. Economically, it just doesn't make much sense for peasants to all have this sort of seed-planting tool or fishing equipment made out of that much metal.

Nothing. Both are widespread but technically incorrect terms used to refer to Chinese martial arts. Not that any of that will ever change. The difference between the k and the g arises simply from different methods of romanizing Chinese. Both prominent methods are not 100 percent accurate, but that's just a fact of life...

pineapple, I have a friend currently attending the East West Center in Honolulu for his Master's Degree. He is currently training under Pat Nakata, a student of Chibana Chosin (one of the karate greats) and is extremely skilled in Shorin Ryu. He doesn't test or even give out rank, he just teaches. For that matter, he's not part of any organization or anything. As strange as this sounds, it's probably closest to how they did it "back in the day", anyway. I can get his info for you if you are interested. He is one of the few members left in the generation that trained in Okinawa with many of the "old masters". From what I hear, he was asked by his parents where he wanted to go to college and that they would pay for it. He said he wanted to take karate on Okinawa, so he stayed there and was close friends with Chibana Chosin. Tsunami Productions is actually releasing a video some time in the future about Chibana Chosin, and Nakata Sensei will be featured in it as well. If you are on that island, he would be an excellent resource for "true karate". Pm me if you are interested and I will get in contact with my friend there (pretty much my best friend back in college).

Can somebody say "Gishin Anki"? A Japanese saying that means if you speak of ghosts, they will appear. Literally means "fear" and "ghost/demon from the darkness". I do not believe in any of that paranormal stuff. You know of anything paranormal that I could experience in the Monterey, California area? I have fears like anyone else, I suppose, and it would be interesting to see how I'd react. Not bashing you guys, please don't get the wrong impression.

Most Okinawan karate styles incorporate sai from Okinawan weapon systems (such as Matayoshi) or various other sai kata that have been passed down over the years. Okinawan karate and kobudo have developed sort of hand-in-hand, if you pardon the lame pun. Some systems are purely weapons, others are purely karate with weapons systems added, and others have their own unique weapons kata (although even some of these are versions of common weapons kata throughout many styles).

I'm going to try and find a scanner, as I actually have diagrams for the first five. Nakazato is a big fan because he came up with them, I believe. (I'm pretty sure he did. If not, then Chibana). P.A.L., did you end up hooking up with that Shorinkan instructor?

This is pretty funny. I'm one of the few people here on these forums that do specifically Shorinkan Shorin Ryu, but I don't know the kyozai kata (or even who hokama sensei is). I know a version of wansu (but a Matsumura Shorin Ryu version). I can help you on yakusoku kumite 1. To clarify, you're studying the style with Hanshi Shugoro Nakazato as the head? It's the only Shorinkan Shorin Ryu I know of. And by the way, where are you located? Anyway, I'll pm it to you once I get yakusoku kumite 1 written out. Edit: Hokama Tetsuhiro from Goju Ryu? In that case, I definately don't know the kyozai kata.

I train in Okinawan Shorin Ryu. More specifically, my system is Shorinkan Shorin Ryu under Hanshi Shugoro Nakazato, which is one of the main branches of Kobayashi Shorin Ryu. I am currently a shodan, whatever that means. As far as whether or not my school is "open" or not, I would say "yes and no". We often have guests from other styles, mostly traditional-based arts that may teach a class every now and then or hold seminars. Plus the instructor (and me, for that matter) is friends with many students and instructors of various styles as well. As far as altering our teaching curriculum to add another whole style or loads of techniques, we don't do that for a couple of reasons. The first is, and I mean this without any trace of arrogance, our system is pretty well-rounded to begin with and contains a large amount of principles and concepts. We don't add techniques per se. Maybe a technique that I personally like from style X is practiced, but we really focus more on the principle behind it rather than the specific technique. While I say we don't fundamentally alter our curriculum, it must also be kept in mind that every one is always learning, including the instructor. The exact way he taught or did his kata this year is different from last year, the year before, or 38 years ago. (The same goes for me, minus the "38 years" part. And I believe that's how it always is. My style is a big organization with rules and set ways of doing the kata (although there are always changes now and then), but it is made up of individual dojo with individual instructors with individual students. All these individuals draw on their experiences within and outside of the style. Many of these individuals also share information in between schools in my system and without the system. You get the picture. No, it's almost never a short post from me. Unless I'm making a poor attempt at humor.

Yes...Takahashi Rumiko has come up with many things in that series...martial arts rhythmic gymnastics, martial arts take-out delivery, martial arts dining, martial arts tea ceremony...the list goes on.

Quite wrong. I'm almost not sure where to start, really. But that's okay, even people that know a lot about karate history get stuff wrong quite often. Okinawa is a small island which is part of the Ryuukyuu island chain, some 500-odd miles south of Japan. Consequently, it wasn't what you could call a war-like state that set about on a conquest of terror over it's neighbors like China and Okinawa. In the late 1300s, Okinawa was formally recognized by the Ming emperor as a vassal state of China. At this time, there was a big cultural exchange, including families that moved to Okinawa from China. This is one of the earlier periods of Okinawan and Chinese martial arts mixing together. Around the late 1400s and early 1500s, the Ryuukyuu Islands became more unified under successive kings, who actually imposed a weapons ban (of varying success, usually inversely proportional to the distance from the capital) long before the Japanese came. In 1600, Japanese samurai from Satsuma invaded Okinawa and quickly overran them, since they didn't really have a large army of their own, nor did they have many weapons to begin with (weapons ban in place earlier). The Okinawans lasted a few days, I believe, but that's all. Myths of Okinawans using karate in guerrilla tactics against the samurai are just that, myths. They further restricted the possession of weapons, which led mostly the nobility and other classes of people (bodyguards, constables, etc.) to try and develop their own methods of fighting without traditional weapons. Things easily available to the common person (bo, perhaps kama, tonfa) were obviously practiced by commoners. There are a great many village and family traditions in the staff, for example, which is a fairly common tool. However, things like sai (I believe it was always a weapon) where usually practiced more by law enforcement personnel or bodyguards. The same happened with karate. Peasants usually didn't have as much time to dedicate to the martial arts. Some did, but it wasn't this huge popular uprising. Most of the people, especially in the more Shuri-te branches were nobility. In addition to the Chinese methods mixed in with Okinawan methods, there were also family methods, like Motobu Ryu for example. Long story short, there was never this huge uprising among the populace or the nobility against the Japanese. Most, not all, people who were able to spend a large amount of time researching the martial arts were well-off or otherwise employed. Satsuma government of Okinawa was always a tricky affair, as Okinawa was still supposed to be a vassal state of China. Usually, they got around this by "looking the other way" when a Chinese or Japanese group arrived. Just a pretty brief overview.

Cowboy Martial Arts. Little known martial art used in the American Wild West to combat the Indian Animal Kung Fu Arts. Supposedly Steer Fist was stronger than Buffalo tail, but we may never know the answer. Actually, it's a convenient acronym for Chinese Martial Arts. I like it because I refuse to use the words "kung fu/gung fu" to describe them.

Darn. I guess old age and treachery always beats out youth and exuberance in the end. I have a video of Mikio Nishiuchi explaining the tonfa basics and he includes some exercises, drills, bunkai and even a tonfa kata (which is pretty simplistic so it would be easy to copy ... I mean learn). You can buy it online I'm sure. Just type in his name and "mastering the tonfa" (or something like that) and you'll hit sites that sell his videos. They're decent for learning the basics, anyway. Lucky for you, I had already actually typed out the tonfa kata after watching the video a couple of years ago. I'll just email you the word file, if you don't mind. Unfortunately for you, its only an outline without the various moves being described too much in detail. Maybe you can use it, maybe not. From what I hear, it's a Matayoshi tonfa kata. It does concern me that you would learn a kata via the web or video and then be trusted to teach it to a class. Even if you were able to copy a kata perfectly, it wouldn't be the same. It is situations like these that make me glad I'm in an established organization. Not raining on your parade (or your instructors), but just my thoughts on the matter. ----me----- (somehow all over the nine foot pole now)

Hmm. 9 foot pole --------- me (on the other side, not touching)

I think some of the reason Itosu Passai Sho was dropped was simply because teachers usually did not teach every single kata they knew. For example, I'm pretty sure Chibana knew Gojushiho, but he didn't teach it. The Gojushiho in my system of Kobayashi Shorin Ryu actually comes from elsewhere (one of Hanshi Nakazato's other teachers/acquaintances, I forget the name off-hand). Maybe it was felt that Itosu Passai Dai was good enough. It sounds wierd, but I think that could be a likely reason. All these style delineations and whatnot are new, as I have repeated over and over, and masters learned from various teachers, which can be seen from the mix of kata they knew and passed on. Since the Kobayashi and related styles trace their origins to Chibana Chosin, that just means he didn't teach it often or at all to his students. Chibana was known to pay his respects to Itosu by only teaching Naihanchi Sandan out of the 3 Naihanchi (supposedly the 3rd was Itosu's) and Pinan Godan (supposedly the 5th was the only one that was completely Itosu's innovation, the others were actually taken from the Channan kata). Another reason could be that unlike Tawada Passai, Itosu Passai, Matsumura Passai (etc.), teachers didn't pass it on because it wasn't necessarily a "true" Matsumura Passai kata. There are many possibilities, I suppose. As far as I know (I could always ask a Shito Ryu practitioner who is a friend of one of my current sensei if I see him any time soon), the Mabuni lineage does do Bassai Dai, Bassai Sho and Matsumura-Bassai. Edit: Your observation that Matsumura Passai is similar to Kobayashi Passai Dai makes sense, as Tawada was a direct student of Matsumura.

If you're not content with training 4 times a week, you can always train by yourself on your off days. I train every day with varying degrees of intensity. The way I see it, you should go to class to learn and discuss new things, do partner work and get corrections on what you do, not to put in the hours of repetition.

Sure. I'm also curious as to what style Soke Madden trained in. Some sites from a simple google search indicate the kata to be a mix mostly of Shotokan kata (with the Japanese names) and some of the Okinawan names and Okinawan kata. Just curious, trying to see where he came from. So you actually get to train with him then? That must be nice.

Well, I've certainly managed to hijack this thread. But to clarify, Okinawa is a part of Japan. It was just quite culturally distinct (this is lessening as time progresses) and had more Chinese than Japanese culture (which is a tricky thing to say, as a lot of Japanese culture was influenced by Chinese culture, but with a lot of Japanese flavor

Edit: The post above mine was edited, so this one probably won't make sense anymore. Original assertion that the kata isn't 500 years ago still stands, as I believe the "masters of old" didn't bother with really really basic kata. Most of these (especially of the Fukyuu/kihon variety) were introduced for testing purposes (which they didn't do) or for teaching school children (which they didn't do till the early 1900s). I'm sorry to say this, but I'm pretty sure "Fukyuugata Dai Ichi" or any variation thereof is not 500 years old. Many styles all have their version of Fukyuugata, some with shared lineages, others not. Usually the pattern is so simple, it wouldn't even be surprising if it somehow developed in two places in total isolation from eachother. I don't mean to call you out on this, but what is your source of information for this? It just sounds a little wierd. At any rate, karate isn't Japanese, so they wouldn't have picked this kata from the Japanese. What's more, they fought the Chinese during the end of the 16th century in Korea, before Japan had any real connection with Okinawa anyway. After the death of Hideyoshi Toyotomi and the beginning of the Tokugawa Bakufu, the Japanese entered a period of sakoku (isolation) that did not involve any external fighting and after solidification, relatively very few internal fighting as well. This lasted officially until 1868, at which point the Meiji Restoration happened. I'll skip over some history, but it wasn't until the around the first quarter of the 20th century that karate was really a part of Japanese military training, as the Japanese were impressed by the physique of Okinawan recruits (Okinawa finally being formally annexed in the late 1800s by Japan after almost three centuries of quasi-rule by the Japanese and quasi-suzerainty by the Chinese). The point of this long history lesson is that I don't see how what you say makes sense. It couldn't have been a real karate kata that old, and definately not of Japanese origin if it was. Furthermore, if it was in the Chinese army training (which seems suspect, but whatever), it would only have to have happened in recent times. I've not the time nor the inclination to deal with changes in Chinese political and military structure over the past 150 years, but suffice it to say, there was a lot of changes. If I'm wrong in my assumptions, please tell me.