Miick 11

I agree with wastelander , it is not silly at all . First, we have to understand what a significant part of Okinawan culture that karate was, and still is . There is a thing called 'cultural misappropriation' and its hard to see the offense in that UNLESS it is your own culture that has been misappropriated and then presented in a way that is rather awful. Regarding the changes FROM original Okinawan karate ( I have written about related things to this in other threads here ) , for example , Hohan Soken left Okinawa and went to Argentina before these changes started , when he returned he asked ' What is that , that those people are doing ? " the answer was "karate" , his response was " Noooo .... that isnt karate . " Even our teacher ( Kosei Nishihira , a close student of Soken ) rarely wore a white (or any other color) gi ... maybe the pants and a white singlet, or 'slacks' and a singlet or topless when training also no belt (unless he wore slacks ... someone once asked , in training , what color belt he was, he looked down at his slack's belt and said 'brown today' . Maybe for a group posed photo he wore a gi... I have seen that . One has to understand the whole dynamic of change and the difference from old style to modern to get why this would be annoying . If anyone is interested, I could explain more . Mr . N. wanted people to learn about old Okinawan culture ... its was and is dying out its being overtaken by 'Base ( US military, ie. ) mentality' fast food culture and other western things . If one went to him 'just' to learn karate one would get a very different response if one wanted to learn ot as part of their old culture . And, it is a fascinating and interesting culture ( check out the old 'turtle tombs' ) . A note on 'black clothing' in Okinawa and Japan . If one looks closely , the traditional dark clothing was dyed with indigo, one major reason is that indigo is a mold repellent . . I have seen ancient Japanese textile that had a pattern or indigo and white on it and all the white parts where decayed and tattered but not the indigo parts . Eg if one looks at a traditional aikido hakama it is a deep indigo color .

It doesnt appear to be making a comeback here . There are an abundance of 'schools' with few students and nearly all have a bunch of old guys ( or one or two ) from the 'past era' and a class of kids . And, of course, with kids its a high intake and drop off rate . I cant see more kids getting into it ... unless they can get off computer screens . A friend has two enrolled; the lad dropped out just as he was getting good at it ( " I am standing there for ages, frozen in this kata position while the instructor goes around and corrects all the other frozen kids in the class. Then we do one more move ... and freeze ." ) for a young lad that enjoys the constant thrill and concentration of motocross, or the slow meditation of fishing , it just didnt do it for him. The daughter has stuch at it ... she wants her black belt , then , I suspect, she will leave . A couple of guys from my club went to a nearby city to train with some instructor one of knew . Big dojo, full of equipment and a heap of kids . About 3 seniors instructing . One of them, who didnt know much about us said to me " We are all in this for the same reason; to help kids grow up into good adults . " I had never heard that before , as a reason to practice , I mean, when you DO have kids training, that is entirely valid, but it certainly isnt the focus of our club or the reason one practices . Anyway, time will tell ..... it would be great to see a resurgence ... especially if it was an interest in 'old style traditional karate ' ... and not just 'school kids karate ' .

Is anyone here familiar with this Kata by Kise; Listed on youtube as ' Bo Nidan y Shodan Máster F.Kise ' Or just the first half as ' Makabi ( sic ? ) no bo ?

I do 3 . We went through them this morning at Saturday class. Soken no Sai ichi, ni and san - as I was informed they where called . I have seen two similar ( 1 & 3 on youtube called 'Soken no Sai ' , which looks like our 1st one and 'Soken no Sai Dai' , which looks like our 3rd one . One can tell its the same kata but ours are very different . I dont really understand some practitioners 'lack of dynamic' , in these performances and the way they execute some of the moves makes me wonder what they are imagining they are doing ? They often do things I had been specifically instructed NOT to do with a sai . Certain footwork and 'tai - sabaki' seems missing as well - its as if as soon as the weapon is in hand , the 'reliance' on that detracts from the important basics . Regarding origin , who knows ? ( Maybe Wado Heretic ? ) Supposedly they came from Soken through Ted Lange . Ted passed on recently, but some months previous to that I was visiting him and mentioned these 3 sai kata , by the above name , and he had a guffaw at that and said " Soken got them from ...... " , but I cant remember the name . So if they came through Ted ( here in Australia ) , I wonder where that name came from ? Usually I find our specific style here and its difference from other Soken derived MAs is due to transition through Kosei Nishihira ( whom Ted considered Soken's 'heir' and our 'Head Teacher' ) . But my instructor ( who trained under Ted and in Okinawa under Nishihira ) told me he never saw Nishihira put his hand to a weapon . ? In any case , our particular forms are different from the other Soken ones I have seen on line . As is the concept of 'performance' .

Well, I am mystified ; " Do this exercise , and be to clear , if you do it in a self defense or sparring situation , you will be ht in the face . " errrm wot ? -------- I was thinking you might comment on the whole new approach of a different technique / application I just outlined that exists inside Matsamura seito shorin ryu . I cant really see the point of it anymore , or putting it 'up front' or having a data base, as apparently people are not interested or do not care about it any more . Even when its explained or demonstrated . I'm out .

Okay, thanks. This is hard to explain when NOT in person , ie, with words nd no actions. Its also hard to explain as most dont have my experience . By that I mean , my particular TYPE of experience . as a lad I started Shotokan. They made a big deal back then about how traditional it was . You where taught do things a certain way , you did them and that was that . Not many explanations aside from the obvious and a lot was unknown. I was even told it was 'rude to ask questions' ... not so much to ask a question , but rude 'to question' the Sensai '. This is SO different from how I work now . I have hounded my instructor for years, in some cases , resulting in new bunkai, understandings and elimination of 'bad' and even dangerous ( to yourself ) bunkai . We have BOTH learned a lot due to this . But you would not 'dare' do this before . Kata was taught a certain way and the practice of basics was drawn from that ( with variations ... that seemed a bot of a stretch at times . ) It was so precise that I have been picked up, at the end of a kata for not having my thumb joint ( on my retracted fist resting at my hip ) not at exactly 90 degrees . anyway, kata was done a certain way and one had to do it that way, often without explanation or with a bad explanation or a 'dont know ' . The difficulty here is , now, I say " Remember how this kata used to be done like this ? " but people dont know as their training never went back that far , or they did something different . I have seen it still done like this in some modern youtubes though . Eg . Pinan Nidan ( Heian Shodan ) - 2 moves to the left, two to the right then you turn and go up the middle line with upper blocks . When you turn and before the first upper block , the left arm and hand is extended forward and up first and drawn back to the hip as the right does the block. I remember even practicing this alone in a series of upper blocks going up and down the hall; extend the left arm out ( like a Nazi salute ) , step forward while retracing it to hip and blocking up with the right . Then extend the right forearm from that blocking position, to make the 'salute' , step forward, draw it back as the left does an upper block, extend the left to the 'salute' ... and so on . or even with a lower block ; the straight left arm is pointing down, then moved cross to the center line , then retracted as the right does the lower block, the right fist is opened and the hand moved towards the center line , step forward, draw it back and do left downward block . We spent so long going up and down the hall , forwards, like in the kata doing that . YET when practicing with another , we did it moving backwards ??? ( There are a whole lot of these discrepancies that can be explained , once you have 'the key' . But a lot of these little moves got eliminated over time from kata so people do not know what I am meaning . I better insert a demo so those unfamiliar know what I mean ; one example 0:23 - 0:29 I have asked about this and the response has been vacant, or silly ( You are 'sighting' the block .... retracting that arm gives you a line to follow for the other to block along , etc ) Hikate is a better response, as this is partially valid, and IS used in some of the bunkai ( eg. 2nd move of Pinan Nidan ) but it doesnt hold up to explain the whole picture here . What is actually happening - in one of the 'versions' of Matsmuraa Seito is ; That hand that goes out first is the 'block' (usually a deflection ' 'no block ' - see below ) and what most call the 'block' is actually a strike ( also examine the words we think refer to a 'block' - gedan bari , soto uke , those words dont mean 'block' at all ). Look at the 'outer block' - some styles step back, or slightly off line, to the outside , and knock the others arm away, with a sweeping outward movement of their arm, deflecting the others arm with their forearm, then step forward for a reverse punch counter, or if in a closer position, dont need the forward step . Some even extend their other arm first before they do the block ... try asking them why . What I have been taught , as the 'old original / fighting form' way , first, move to evade off line, from their right punch, to your left, while 'deflecting' (or to stop it tracking your movement ) with that extended left palm or edge of palm and your right 'winds up' or 'loads' then comes across, knuckles out, to strike the side of their outer elbow 'weak point' as you retract your left for strike with that - then the technique continues in a variety of ways . 'Gedan Bari' - you step back and do a down ward block against a front kick, then retaliate . OR, as I was taught , going up and down the gym , forwards ; left hand out and down, move it to center linen , step forwards, retract it and do right down wards block ( but in practice with another we would move backwards blocking as the kicker moved forward - up and down the hall . I did ask then why ... why is the movement forward in the kata ? What ? We are advancing on someone and as they retreat they are dong a series of kicks ? The answers where lacking - to say the least . Remember being drilled to do those half circle steps ? Left front stance, slide the back right foot in and next to the right , keep low, knees bent , Slide it out and forward to make a right front stance . Put it together ; your opponent does a right front kick , you move forward, stepping (not sliding ) your right back foot in to the other , moving off line and evading the kick, your left hand comes across to knock it out the way or stop it tracking you, as you step forward with the right foot your right hand comes down, knuckles out, to strike the side of the kneecap . That is why we have a strange hand position in doing inner block; the fist is coming across, with the finger (2nd ) knuckles extended to strike the attackers right punch, with a whipping motion on their right wrist around P6 point . No 'blockie' ... why you blockie ?" Because they are strikes , not 'blocks' . What happened ? karate was a deadly fighting form . It got changed to a physical eduction / exercise for school kids , you cant have kids attacking the pericardium nexus , flicking fingernail across eyeball etc etc . It all got changed , then changed again when they taught Americans ( for obvious reasons - they where the invaders and enemies ! ) and American servicemen ( another clue , see below ) , then turned into a sport - no punching back of head, no kicking kneecaps, no groin attacks .... Hohan Soken went to Argentina at the start of all this and missed it , when he returned he saw 'karate' and asked what it was ... thats how much it changed , he had been in isolation and missed it all, war, changes , etc . So we have a time capsule with him. He started teaching a few on his return to Okinawa, then expanded out . There was close friends and family teaching, school / dojo teaching and 'base style', what they taught the American servicemen on their military bases . Mr Nishihira would 'go long' with base style or school style . If you where 'worthy' you would be taught 'real fighting style' or 'family style ' , it was more private . many where taught both, but many dont seem to have deciphered what was going on, and still to this day, teach the 'new' style, even though they know some parts of the old techniques . That rather mystifies me - I will also cite this video for a source of info on this, its scattered through the video and it also shows how 'the truth' or 'extra opportunity' can be offered to some and ignored, missed or never acted upon / Its Dillman , I am not advocating Dillman at all, but it interesting that he affirms information that actually detracts from his own 'skills' . This is a very brief explanation of the process and I have left a LOT out as it take so long to write it all out . But if anyone has questions I am happy to respond ( within my time constraints What gets me is why those that know this, STILL teach those old adapted techniques ? i broached this many times with my instructor even to the point of ; I hold my right hand out standing off to his right " Punch my hand with a left ." Instructor zooms in with a left lunge punch and withdraws his right hand to hip . I slap him upside his head with my left . he gets the shits . Me; " Now do sanshin kata " he does the first few punches, as they are done, with the non punching hand keeping guard up. I get him to punch my hand again but this time with 'sanchin punch' . I go to slap him upside the head with my left - he easily knocks it out the way or blocks it as he has that side's guard up . me; "Now do you get what I mean ? " Him; " yes, " me ; " Then why do you continually tech people, adult senior good students , that first way to punch ? " he seemed stumped . Then thought bit and ; " Its just a punching exercise ." Me " Okay, but why teach them a bad punching exercise ??? " he thought about that ... and I still do not have an answer . IMO , Soken and Nishihira left hints ll over the place for us to work out ... even some of Soken's other senior close students didnt seem to get it and STILL teach school kid / sports karate Do watch the Dillman video if you havent seen it ; " Everything he hit was a pressure point - EVERYTHING ! " " Why you block ??? There is no block . "

We had (and I'm not entirely sure why the American tradition went this way) a few Shorinji kata in our program. So I'm holding on to Seisan, Wansu, and Ananku as well. I've actually been mulling over the idea of making an online repository for MSSR (and other systems, but MSSR is what I know). It seems a little silly that in 2021 our system can be dying off due to lack of knowledge. There has to be someone in the world who has knowledge of the things we're losing. I'm involved in HEMA as well and every fencing manual from the Medieval and Renaissance period are easily found on Wiktenauer, a free online Wiki. I know that MSSR can be secretive, that seems to be a trait of MA at large but I've never met another MSSR practitioner who wasn't at least a little guarded. I totally understand this, as well! Like you, I balk at the idea of making changes within the kata and various traditional techniques. I don't mind those techniques being adapted in sparring etc. but I believe that we should learn the original technique before adaptation. That said, if there was, at bare minimum, a drop box file that held kata information that instructors could share with their students as they came to these kata that would be awesome. I know that for my purposes it would be great to see some kata again to knock off some rust. So like I mentioned above the American program has incorporated some Shorinji techniques. So the MSSR I learned had both blocks with the knuckles facing toward and to the side of the opponent that we separated into "Matsumura" and "Shorinji" blocks (we had punches in both of these techniques as well). That said, in practice and sparring, we were mostly encouraged to use the Matsumura techniques, which is the knuckles facing the opponent. Thanks. One more question about the knuckle thing . Why ? - why block with the knuckles outward ( towards what you are blocking ) and why with them facing forward ? Yes, I am going somewhere constructive with this . and it may relate to this 'original kata ' / 'secretary ' thing . ( So far in the traditions that I have seen come down from Soken , there seem to be 3 types of 'Matsamura Seito ' ) .

A lot of questions! I so rarely meet another MSSR person! Unfortunately, I never got the chance to learn Chinto or Hakatsuru. My instructor kept Chinto behind Shodan and didn't know Hakatsuru (I'm also not entirely sure that he was well versed in Chinto. He kept putting off teaching me despite my constant asking). I made shodan but then moved away for school about 6 months afterwards. By the time I got back he was no longer teaching and had moved away himself. As you may know, MSSR isn't super easy to find, so I haven't had the chance to continue my training in my home system. I might just have to travel. Oddly enough, he did end up moving not a small amount of katas around towards the end of my time with him, but the overtly crane stuff wasn't part of it. I have found that it is nearly impossible to find the katas as we do them online. A lot of Shorinji, Goju, and other branches but no MSSR stuff. I know that MSSR people can be a little secretive, and that attitude gets passed down a little through the ages, but I would love to see some good uploads on YouTube. My lineage goes Soken>Kise>Coffman>Gagne>Pinder (my teacher). We learned the katas in the line that my teacher did so we started with the Pinans and Nihanchi came around 6th kyu. Thanks for the response and info . Yes, it is rare to find another - hence all my questions . Its getting rarer . here in Oz we needed to sort things out as Ted ( head instructor for Australia and ex student of Hohan Soken ) sadly passed away this year and took a lot of knowledge with him . My instructor has been elected as one of 3 running things here , and the one that seems to have retained the most ( kata , bunkai, weapons forms ), yet, often and recently I had to to do demos to teach this stuff as he is starting to get forgetful and confused . So at the moment I am holding in memory and form ; Pinan 1 - 5 , Niharchin 1 - 3 , Passai 1 & 2 ,Rohai , Chinto, Jojushiho , Hakatsuru ( still working on kusanku ), Oshimi pasai and Nobudi nogata . 5 Bo kata , 3 sai, 3 gamma, 2 ecu, a range of sword and jo techniques and a jo / sword dual kata or form I developed . I cat see things progressing much , no new people and everyone getting older . I am happy to teach anyone ( who I judge to be 'worthwhile' , that is, a person who will not misuse it ) , I am not keen on modern teaching ; big schools, seeking business or money ( I change absolutely nothing ) , full of kids getting colored belts etc , more like old school style , small group of people , no 'big business . If you ever happen down this way. Oh , one last question, if you wouldn't mind ( just a bit of research ; when you do an 'outer block ' , 'inner block' or 'lower' block ' , with your blocking hand , in each of these techniques , are you knuckles facing the target or side on to it ? Eg; if you do 'gedan bari' against a leg, are your knuckles facing the leg sideways or facing upwards ?

Aha ! a fellow MSSR practitioner ! My instructor teaches that kata first and it was teacher's ( Kosei Nishihira ) favorite . I enjoy doing it, as I suppose I am so familiar with it . We also practice a whole range of bunkai developed from it by Mr N. Including a range of leg defenses that come from the two lots of legs moves - that are usually shown to be a foot sweep and take down . I am fairly keen on Chinto , but I suppose lately it would be Hakatsuru , I was asked to demonstrate it the other week at training when we had a visiting Instructor ( who is yet to learn it ) . It was a bit tricky as I was ( and still are ) suffering from a bout of Bell's Palsy and its effected my inner ear and balance . I am curious on your tradition, what line did it come down to you From Hohan Soken ? Mine came, via Ted Lange who bought it to Australia, taught my instructor and after Mr Soken died they both accepted Mr Nishihira as teacher . I am also VERY curious and interested if you do Hakatsuru , and what version you do ? I have been trying to track our one down , I have only ever seen one like it on an old bad obscure film from USA from another MSSR group( which I cat find now ). We only know it by that name , however I have seen reference to Hakatsuru Sho , Dai and mei (our one osnt mei as i have seen a film of it) . Its not the most common one .... it certainly isnt this ; rather confusing as that is Kusanku Some here have said The one Soken does is Hakatsuru Dai , but I have yet to see that . It is not this one either I cant post film as i have not found one It starts as most versions do, with a kusanku like beginning , you move to the right and do a technique, go back to the front where there is a finger strike (into the throat) and then (probably the most distinctive move in it ) you move to the left and make a snatching and thrusting movement that represents stealing the comb from the hair and thrusting back with the comb , then 3 kicks ( with the typical crane hand movements ) in three directions . - that should be enough as the other versions do not start like this . Sound familiar anyone ? Help much appreciated .

Hi ... I hope there is more to tell about weapons . ( My weapons post querie has been empty since I got here )

Shorin Ryu ( Matsamura Seito version ) has a lot of standing locks, take downs and throws but little 'wrestling on the ground' . Most come from bunkai in kata that others see as blocks and strikes, etc . Being a 'traditional' Okinawan form (old style karate ) is has more of the 'Okinawan wrestling' in it than adapted latter 'Japanese versions ' that either changed or used an already changed system and it seems to focus more on on striking . If any thing I would say Shorin Ryu seems to focus more on tai sabaki than striking ; striking is often used as the initial 'distraction' ... and some times as a final 'ending' to a technique

Why stop at promoting oneself .... why not invent a whole new grade for yourself ? Master Ken created the 11th Dan ..... which he holds . " By the authority vested in me as the creator of and 11th-degree black belt in the most dangerous martial art in the world — Ameri-Do-Te — I hereby demote you to white belt."

I am fortunate enough to have a lot of land . I made a level spot out the front of the house with the tractor , so its fairly large ( no Mum or Wife to complain about carving up the garden ) it soon got covered with grass . Now I call it ' The Circle of Death ' The last 12 years , our 'club training ' on the weekend has been in a public park in town . It seems to have become popular , now the local aikido club trains there on the same day . Outside training is the go ! Much more to offer ; being aware of a much larger 'field' / environment , yet not being distracted by it , uneven ground and correct footwork ( for outdoors, that is - dont try doing what you learned to do on a smooth gym floor when outdoors ) , tactics (like maneuvering another into uneven ground , or so they have the sun in their eyes, etc ) . Weather can be an issue , sometimes we evacuated the park and went and trained in a nearby covered car park .

Wall in the way ? I punch hole in wall . I kick the bed .... it goes flying out the window . Disturbing phone call ? They wouldn't dare ! Lego blocks ? I sleep naked on them ! ..... have you considered outdoor training ? ( You left out a major one in your little film - swiping the neon light tube with the tip of your bokken ! )

I nearly missed this . Thanks for the rainbow belt . I shall wear it next year at the Mardi Gras parade down Oxford St .

I have always wanted to try it. Did a bit when younger in Sikiran ( a Filipino style) . but I have never been able to find a teacher since - I live out in the country . There was talk of a new guy turning up to train with us that does it , looking forwards to that IF ... he hasnt showed up yet . Some stuff can be learnt from internet but FOR GOD"S SAKE DO NOT WATCH 'Choson Ninja ' unless its for a laugh . " Its a wrist exercise ! " .

Here is another one (it popped up today on the end of another vid ) with applications like I was suggesting

yeah well ... thats what happens when bunkai is 'lost' from 3 : 08 to 4 : 40 and Mr I. A . shows a similar bunkai for Kusanku as I explain above for hakatsuru ;

No one is going to offer a bunkai for this move ? ? ? We do them all the time . I can think of 3 of our kata which which start in a similar manner ; in that, as mentioned above, " The triangular shape is the result of making a wedge shape with your hands/arms. " 1. Rohai . 2. Kusanku 3. 'Hakatsuru' . It CAN be a both arms 'flick block ' to deflect a punch upward . If someone comes in NOT in a regular 'oi tsuki' stepping in attack ( maybe they are standing close with feet near together - how you going to tell which hand will attack ? By flinging both up you can deal with that OR it can be a set up for something ( see below ) . Or perhaps the other is attempting a high grab with both their arms . Also it can be used as a 'charging forward ' action, as also mentioned above . (see below as well ) 1. In Rohai the next move is to strike down with a double shuto . This can be both arms up to defect a punch and then a double strike down on the collarbone . 2. In Kusanku it can be a double upward deflection with the outward circular movement that follows with both your arms being double shutos that go from the inside of both their arms (if they go for a high level double handed grab ) or just apply this to one arm on one side against a punch , press down and scoop in pulling their arm/s in while applying pressure to their elbow/s upwards , against their natural movement ( .... a ' front reverse arm bar ' ? ) . As you rise, their arm/s should be trapped and the other should be going up on tippy toes . OR Against that old crazy street fighter charging in wildly swinging with a 'hay maker' , surge forward while assuming the wedge position, jamming one forearm against the swinging punch and the other into their neck ( ya gotta pre-empt a bit for this one ) . OR as a wedge to drive back or control the others movement at close quarter grappling - you see this all the time in MMA * . 3. Hakatsuru . The hands and arms rise up into this wedge position then the left comes down to the left side , forearm horizontal, elbow back, palm up. The right drops into a shuto across the left fore arm . Then you move ams across to make this position on the apposite side ; right arm back, forearm horizontal palm up , left with a shuto across the right forearm . Then the right does an extended low nukite . The bunkai can be like any of the above but lends itself well to ; The other stands close and flings either a left or right , you practice deflecting with either side attacking , being unknown. Then , if they have thrown a left ( or a right, you just reverse the movement in the kata ) , you deflect with a wedge , this leaves your left side nicely expose for them to drive a right into your ribs . You bring your right arm down and around that and hit the 'weak spot ' ( bicep LU 3 or 4 or forearm LU 6 ) with your left shuto on their right and catch it underneath with your right hand . Slide your left down to their wrist and your right up to their elbow as you 'turn behind' them and assume the kata position on your right side . This makes a 'cranking' movement of your hands that results in an arm bar movement that spins them and drives their head down with their arm extended and locked . You then strike nukite behind ear at around GB 12 . * @ 2:25

All this will make the coming weekend interesting . I will add it to the mix . Since 'the boss' passed on there was a meeting of seniors and other instructors and it appears that some have not retained this kata nor the weapons forms , except my instructor and myself ( and 2 others in our club , but nowadays they are mostly absent ) . So this weekend we are traveling to do a seminar to address and teach this . The reason I find it interesting is last week I had to show my instructor how to do our hakatsuru ( and sort out some weapons kata ), not the first time either - but , hey - we are all getting a lot older . In the above categories , I am in the 'over 60' one . [ Aside ; a few months back I had my own ' Grandpa Simpson moment ' ; went to Saturday morning in the park training . Not one of the slackers showed up ! So I did it alone . Went and had coffee afterwards ; 'it seems really quiet today ? ' I commented about that to the check out at the supermarket .... ' Even the butcher is shut .' I got a strange look ' " Well, it is Sunday."] I will add a bit of karate history to it with help from the above posts .

Thank you ! Over the years of inquiry this is the best answer I have yet . Yes, there seems many forms and as I said before , the Hohan Soken Hakatsuru shown on youtube is different . I believe the version I am practicing came down via Theodroe Lange ( a listed student of Hohan Soken in the Wiki article on him ) - Ted was the head of MSSR in Australia until a few months back when he sadly passed on . Ted ( and my instructor and myself ) accepted Kosei Nishihira as the head after Soken passed , so its not impossible it came to him via Nishihira . Ted was also able to show me some bunkai related to some of the more obscure moves that others did not understand , so I assume it came down through him . It is said to be an 'old form' and includes moves that represent grabbing and removing the hair comb of the other and stabbing it back in their throat , three 'whip kicks' in sequence to 3 different directions , a sequence where it is like you are holding a ball (as in tai chi ) while in horse stance, and flinging the arms out to the side and back to the same position , 3 times , a cross step in horse stance and doing this again. But then comes a sequence of familiar moves that are in other kata ; first a cross arms then fling open so they are in a crane posture, with a whip kick, followed by a hook stance and arm movement as in Rohai, a kick and punch simultaneously from that hook stance as in Chinto, then a turn with a rolling palm and fingers strike as in gojoshioo. (And the forms we do of these kata are different as well.) So unless the other kata where extensions taken from these moves ( ... nah ) , it seems like a mix up of some crane moves and some 'samples' from other kata . ie . someone put it together 'recently' . Even so, I wonder where the other moves come from that are more crane like and not in other kata ?

Excellent post W.H. ! I am specifically interested in this part : " . The Haku Tsuru tradition as contained in Kingai-Ryu comes directly from the Bái Hè Quán as taught by Go Kenki. It also contains an older Tora Tsuru kata, or Tiger Crane, which is a Hard-Soft form. " I practice Matsamura Seito Shorin ryu in the tradition of Kosei Nishihira . We have a 'hakatsuru' kata which i have been trying to place the origins of . I have only seen one form of it on an old youtube, but they do it a bit different , seems based on what we do though . I know there are numerous forms of it , but ours does not seem to have a specific name . I have seen 'Hakatsuru Mei ' but that isnt it ., nor Hakatsuru Dai or Sho nor a host of others, including the one of Hohan Soken on youtube . .... how many are there !

Good for you . I feel cross training is essential for a serious studen or any student that wants to become a 'senior' . I did a lot of aikido . Moved to current location, no aikido . Eventually found a karate school nearby so joined that . Years later aikido turns up in town so I start doing that too . I would encourage karate instructor to do an aikido class - no way ! Once they had a seminar with Dave Brown visiting (he has done the best seminars I have ever attended and he is fairly well known ) . I wanted instructor to come - no way . I informed him that a few karate instructors from other schools around that area where coming . Nope. Oh well, he missed out < shrug> . At the end of one seminar I asked Dave why his aikido seemed different yet very effective ; " Oh, I cross - trained all over the place to test out what I had learned against all sorts of people that didn't do aikido , I focused on and developed what worked , and changed or threw out what didn't . " ( my emphasis )

For me, I dont need to start a new style . Our teacher ( who has now passed on ) , Kosei Nishihira taught and encouraged senior students to develop their own 'style' anyway ; " You are very tall, you focus on these techniques ... you do that this way . " and change it for a shorter person, or for other reasons . Pretty much the same for him , from his teacher ; Hohan Soken . Thing is it was an old style family tradition, after Hohan Soken passed on there was no clear direct descendant ( a direct family member ) so no ' Head of Style ' , so to speak . ( Oh sure , it was claimed .... not wanting to get 'political' here . ) Some fellow students of Nishihira decided he was the one that best represented Soken's teaching, so they elected to follow him. But he was very humble , claimed nothing ( he said " Oh no ! I am only up to Mr. Soken's knee " ) he did inherit Soken's weapons though , and I have a private training film of him, after class casually talking and produced and old style wooden 'board' ( from storage, not on display ) that had his authority written out on it and signed by Soken . At some stage ' Soken's group' ( as they where called by others ) came up with MSSR - Matsamura Sieto Shorin Ryu . Now , after Mr. Nishihira has passed on, there is no head . I dont know what has become of it in other countries ? Here in Oz , it is in process of forming an association with the few instructors as director and one as CEO - standard business model . So within that frame work I have no need to 'start' a new style . My practice has developed into my own style within these teachings . Besides , I certainly dont want to start a club or a M.A. business (or any type of business ) . You could do a bit of both , and in your teaching, if you do become successful at 'MMA/combat' , when you teach you can inform people " I am successful at MMA/combat karate but that might be because one needs to also be a competent fighter with conditioning " . IE. leave that 'just ' bit out .

I prefer to learn and teach , if not one on one, in groups of 3 . That way people can do a techniques ( do it to someone ) , bunkai , etc . Receive the technique ( have it done to you ), and watch two people do the technique . Sometimes its hard to learn a techniques when its being done to you . Happened this morning ; Instructor is showing someone how to do it properly ... so he is trying to learn it , while he is getting 'beaten' . I suggested ; "Do it to me on me so he can see whats being done . " One ( just one ) good thing about a class is , you have a wide variety of different people to practice with . There is a 'danger' in getting to used to training with two or three people.