SevenStar

I train 12 - 15 hours per week.

As Miyagi Sensei once said. "It should be known that secret principles of Goju-Ryu exist in the kata." This includes grappling and throwing techniques, which in my experience are very common in Okinawan styles of karate, and especially ones such as Goju-Ryu which are heavily close-in systems.

having it in the system is one thing. training it on a regular basis is quite another. I think that is where the issue actually resides.

I don't see a problem with dropping back in rank

1. there are things within this style that you may not have learned yet that are required for their shodan rank - at their school.

2. it may take much more to achieve it in their system.

Whenever you step into a new school you are to empty your cup and learn what they are teaching you. In the end, it's only a belt. I wouldn't worry about it, as that's not what should be important to you.

I don't train to fight like a prizefighter, I don't base my fighting on submissions and bludgeoning my opponent down. I train with movements where I do things like get my opponent's thigh locked between my leg while elbowing them, then suddenly throw my whole weight at the ground to leverage their knee sideways with the gravity. The taiji guys I worked with study to catch someone's arm and step into an elbow break. Those aren't things that show up much in prizefighting, which is much like sparring, a deceptively unrealistic drill. I can walk through those type of movements in training, but I have to practice them in full too so I can get the dynamics right. I can't really use a live training partner for such an attack.

but you can't practice it live - that's the problem. My original thai coach had some traditional thai training. I know a thai elbow form, traditional thai applications, etc. We train them in class on occasion, as my buddy - the other instructor (there are three of us) - loves the traditional stuff. We can't practice it full speed though, and coincidentally, none of us have ever used any of it in fights.

I can't think of any who have katas in their training routine. Fact is, there are more effective ways of training; more useful things on which to spend their time.

Bas Rutten practises Kata

yeah, but I'm willing to bet he's the only one... and I'm curious as to how much of his training actually comprises of it. My guess is not much - he probably subs it for shadowboxing or interval anaerobic training.

there are some lesser known TMA who compete, like sami berik who likely trains forms. Once again though, I bet he spends more time on application.

I think the one thing that everybody is overlooking here is the difference between a martial artists "end goals", and a boxers.

A boxer trains to stand toe to toe with ONE other boxer for 10-12 rounds while wearing gloves, a mouth piece and a groin protector. A martial artist, in the old traditional sense, trains to protect his life against one or more armed, or unarmed opponents, and to escape that confrontation with their life intact.

A boxer trains to fight for possibly an extended period of time going nearly full out for 2-3 minutes at a time, whereas a martial artist trains to disable or escape an attacker as quickly as possible.

There are a multitude of other differences, such as a boxer trains to fight in a ring with a certain type of material under his feet, and special shoes on, and a martial artist should be training for any sort of environment...from sand, to hard flooring, to ice, to tile, etc.

As a martial artist of quite a few years, I have never been in a street/real fight personally that lasted more than 1 minute from its onset, to its conclusion. I have successfully defended myself a number of times against younger, stronger and multiple opponents, and once against a weapon. I am certainly not a super human or in anywhere close to the physical conditioning of a boxer in fighting shape.

I have never had the desire to train as a professional, or amateur fighter and go into a ring to try to knock a person out that had never wronged me. If I had that sort of desire, yes, i would adopt a more "boxer" mentality and train for that goal. Sport oriented martial artists certainly would benefit from a boxer training regimine also, as their "end goals" are similar to a boxers.

I have no problems if someone wants to train like a boxer, but a non-sport/competative martial artist doesn't need (IMHO) to train to that extent to survive a street encounter. If all we were allowed to use were our hands, and only certain types of blows wee allowed to be thrown and only at a small number of targets while wearing heavily padded gloves, then yes, more conditioning would be necessary I'm sure, as injurying an opponent would be much more difficult than it is.

That's my $.02 worth anyway.

I dunno how signficant those differences really are. there was recently an incdient in which a thai boxer chased three men out of his home who broke in, assaulted his mother and tried to rob him. his injuries were minor, AND the three men were armed. Is that what he was training for? No, but his training served him well, obviously. A sport fighter will train to endure that long number of rounds his fight will last, but not unlike the TMA, he wants to end it as fast as possible. The difference is that he recognizes that that is not always possible.

your last comment about target areas doesn't really apply to MMA, and they have the same issues with fight duration at times. In Pride, you can kick downed opponents. there are really only a few areas that are off limits to strike. The issue is that you have two highly trained guys fighting eachother. in the street, that most likely will not be the case.

If every Karate school was run like that, Karate would suffer less defeats at the hands of boxing and kickboxing. However, Karate attracts a group of people that wants belts. Kickboxing and boxing attract the group that want to bash some heads.

I agree to some extent. When I first went into Karate in 1964 you were expected to train very hard.

By the 1980's there came many schools and easier training systems. Our school was heavily effected by these "easy training systems", in terms of student numbers.

Only the geniune hard core students stayed on. People either dropped out or went for the easy way to a dan grade by joining a McDojo.

It saddens me to see such a noble art being destroyed by lazy money grabbing "persons".

In the 1960's Karate, in our country, had a reputation of being a fiercely tough martial art. Now the general public views Karate through Hollywood eyes. They see a high kicking Jumpin Jehosaphat punched out by a one hit boxing wonder.

But all is not lost. There are still true hardcore practitioners out there that train like hell, like they used to.

One of the reasons I stopped teaching years ago apart from the logistics of it, was because people would come into the dojo and soon leave because it was too hard. The western mind is lazy. They want a fast way to the riches of fighting and/or fitness. This can be clearly seen by the success of * exercise equipment sold in informercials. "Get a ripped body in only 5 minutes per day".

Soon I expect Guthry Renker to be advertising "Be a Black Belt in 5 minutes a day and become a karate killer".

Still, I cannot change the world, but I can change myself.

didn't american kickboxing start because they thought that karate was too soft? I agree that the typical western mind is lazy, and I think properly trained, karate is awesome. One of the best MA I've ever seen is my friend/former coach, but he was born, raised and trained in japan. I think karate in America was really just a fad - something new that people had not seen. before karate, it was kung fu, and before that, judo. After karate came the ninja craze. Since you have people that are affected by fads - people that flock to what's hot, you will definitely have a rise of McDojos, as that is essentially what the majority of people want.

if you are training for power, what is key is training your neuromuscular system to contract harder - this harder contraction naturally produces more power. One way do do this is maximal poundages with few reps and few sets. Never lift until failure.

As for exercises, I would recommend olympic and other compound movements - cleans, deads, squats, bench, etc. I would also add pullups and plyos twice a week.

I have never met a street fighter that works out like competent martial artist.

I have.

I have never met a street fighter that can punch at 48 feet per second, or can kick, block, and move their body in a similar capability.

actually, that doesn't matter... de la hoya can punch faster than tyson - who do you think would win?

I have never met a street fighter who has the reaction time capability of a competent martial artist.

I have. the thing is people take "streetfighter" to mean 'couch potato who does nothing, but likes to fight' The guys that I know who did alot of fighting were very athletic - played ball, lifted weights, etc - they just loved trouble.

How can someone honestly compare a trained person with an untrained person?

the same way that a lesser skilled tennis player beats a more skilled one. The sun even shines on a dog's behind some days...

There are martial artists and competent martial artists, do not mistake the two.

some people think they are, but are not.

"A minute of experience on the street is worth a year of training in the dojo. " - Str33t Guy

No it isn't. (Unless your at a really bad dojo)

there is an element of truth to it - experience counts for alot...although I think a year is a bit of an exaggeration. take two fighters who have trained the same length of time, in the same school. The only difference is that one has had ring fights and the other has not - typically, the one who has the ring experience will be the overall better fighter. he's used to the pressure, dealing with someone trying to tear his head off, coping with adrenaline, etc. The person with street fights under their belt has the same advantage over a person who has had none.

I'm actually a fan of his. I have "the boxer's guide to performance enhancement" I post on his message forums as well.

I am not talking about the kind of power and strength needed to lift massive weights, that is useless to the MA. I am talking about the kind of power needed by a MA.

Albeit, use your own body weight and see how many reps you can do until your legs muscles burns with pain. After enough reps I am sure you will soon see exactly how hard it is.

This exercise is one most the top champion boxers and their coaches call "The King of All Exercises" because of its difficulty.

those same coaches also advocate that their boxers lift weights...all of these exercises are just parts of a bigger picture.

Everyone should recognize that you need to work both types of muscles. A good alternative to this would be to do one super deep, super high vault, then follow that by 4 rythmic vaults. Work a cycle. This is the same idea behind a previous thread that said walk 60 seconds, jog 30 seconds, run 30 seconds, sprint 60 seconds, run 30 seconds, jog 30 seconds, repeat. Continue this over a 2 - 3 mile stretch, and it's the best of both worlds. (If you're really good, get rid of that walk part altogether and join the to jog parts into one 60 second job.)

actually, I think that supersetting weight bearing exercises and plyos is a good idea.

God, I hate how people in here try and talk physics all the time. Don't take any personal offense by that- it's just that people define things in ways that aren't relevant.

I apologize that you were offended by my comments. Physics, biology, statistics, chemistry, computers - this is what I know. MA - that I'm new at. This is what happens when engineers start hobbies.

Let's just take 100 of these. (Since I tried 40 and my legs were on fire after that, so 500 seems like an enormous number right now.)

It should be apparent that if you do 100 in 400 seconds, that's a big difference than doing 100 of the same quality in 100 seconds. The second version will generate and develop more power than the first. The post I was responding to said that this exercise won't generate power. I disagree.

The problem when you start dealing in very large numbers is that most people will settle into a rythm that is less than maximum ability. The same thing happens when you lift. My friends and I used to take some time on the bench press, put on 75 pounds, and keep going until we couldn't - one set. That was doing something entirely different than working our standard 80% max press.

That being said, if you really can do 40 or 100 or even 500 of these full speed, full explosiveness, this will build power, just like doing squats and hip sled.

muscles are lazy by nature. what makes them grow is maximal effort. high repetitions build muscle endurance, not strength, as the muscle doesn't have to exert maximal force to lift itself. As pockets said, squats would work better here.

also on beale, they host boxing matches on the first tuesday of every month.

the even is called kickshoot, and they are hosted by a man name jeff mullen - he posts about needing fighters all the time on mma.tv I'll dig up his number and shoot it to you. they are held downtown at the new daisy.

focus mitts

jump rope

heavy bag

weight bench and 300lb of weights (even though I have a gym membership)

kali sticks

boxing interval timer

gloves

surgical tubing

ab roller (the old fashioned ones that looked like a tire)

handwraps

dumbbells - two 5lb, two 25lb and two 50lb

ankle weights - 5, 10 and 20 lb pairs

various training books and vids

shin pads

mouth guard

cup

katana

broadsword

bo

don't worry about ufc right now - first you need experience. we have local shows here every three to four months. Also, there is a more professionally run show called the ffc that is usually held here, tunica or biloxi. once you have gotten some experience in small shows, you can step up to a bigger one, then a bigger one after that.

I wouldn't wear one - for the reason you stated - you won't have on in the street, and it's not off limits. I think that wearing head gear is common sense, but I think a facemask is over doing it.

you can always put that shoe on the other foot:

If I am training in a style where we are learning lethal techniques, but due to their nature, I can't practice them at full force, will I be able to use them effectively on the street?

as for not sidestepping i disagree, i think u should be taught that immediately at least i was, but he should becarefull not to get cut off by his low kicks, for example, if hes side sstepping to his right he might be comeing straight onto a low kick which is being set up by his opponent.

we don't disagree often, but there's a first time for everything. for a new guy, timing will be a hard thing to master. to try and sidestep while fighting will get him hit. parrying and using his teep and jab will serve him better. I don't disagree that he should be taught it. But if he's fighting a hard, frequent puncher, that's not the time to practice it, given the history that this guy has.

frazier had an agressive style - ali was elusive.

I have an interval timer - I set the round length, and then set the duration for 15 seconds. every 15 seconds, it will beep. when the bell rings, shadowbox aggressively - lots of head movement and forward motion. when the bell sounds, switch to an ali style - lots of movement, plenty of jabbing. stay in one place only long enough to throw a quick combo, then move again. when the bell sounds, go back to the frazier style. Do this until the final bell at the end of the round.

This gets fighters used to various styles of fighting, and the ali style is great for endurance.

do the combinations where you want - pads, bag, air - doesn't matter.

Monday, let me know what you thought about it. I'd like the feedback.

i hate you

While those are the workouts of professional boxers- not everyone who wants to learn boxing has to do that. They do have to be in shape, of course, but training a few days a week is okay for those of us who simply can't do anymore. Still, you make excellent points a lot of karate guys should think about regarding conditioning.

the training will be the same - frequency depends on that of the boxer. roadwork is the lone option - other than that, you do what the rest do, whether you intend on competing or not.

full contact karate?? No. Point karate, yeah, there is plenty in memphis. Also, there are some mma and kickboxing events in memphis - thai, inaternational and american rules. american rules kickboxing is pretty much the same as full contact karate.

it's a good technique. it's taught in muay thai as well. they also utilize a spinning elbow.