SevenStar

what do you define as flashy - I use head kicks in ring fights. My friend is a black belt in tkd and I've seen him land a jump spinning back kick in a street fight. ANYTHING can work - if you can make it work. I personally can't make a jump spinning kick work in a fight, but apparently, he could.

Not always , when striking the bag , it's going to move , so you might want to move with it , thats where u aquire some movement . There are some persons who just stand there and strike , usually they use hand strikes and low kicks , since those moves don't require a great deal of movement .

The point of it is to ingrain footwork. it's not about the technique itself requiring movement. One thing I've noticed is that when people get in the habit of standing in one place, it carries over into sparring - which is bad. they neglect footwork, head movement, etc. and just stay in the same general area.

I said that you might aquire some movement from bag training , the same movement that you'l aquire while punshing air . Real movement is gained by training and sparing with a human , the same idea is still present , no basics.

see above.

sometimes you just want to FIGHT .

In military drills , they just bombard an empty area with all the weapons that they have . No real target is present . taht experience aquired from targetting an empty area , is actually used on the battlefield , same goes for that bag .

if you want to fight, don't half step - fight. you can't really FIGHT with people in your gym - that's where competition comes in. sparring is a training exercise, as is bagwork. competition is where you fight. That's not to say that you can't spar hard - you should. but the mentality of that is not the same as the one present in the ring.

good is a relative term... we don't know what you're trying to accomplish - your workout out may me good for something that you aren't trying to achieve. What is your goal?

However, right off the bat, I notice a lack of back, shoulder and lat work.

well... are you looking for full contaact gear or point sparring gear?

I like twins. ringside has good eqipment as well.

Chinese Kempo influenced some of the striking aspect of FMAs, but I believe Kali focuses on the destruction of the opponents weapon without much kicking involved. Kicking sort of prohibits the flow of weapons-based techniques, in my opinion. Think about this way: You have a stick and your opponent attacks with a knife. You counter his swing by smashing his hand or wrist with your stick. The result is that you eliminated the weapon, and you probably broke his hand or arm. Now, you might follow up with a kick. But why not just finish 'em off with your stick?

That's the Filipino way.

we used them, though not quite a bit. Granted, it wasn't pure kali (jun fan/jkd) so that could be why. They have silat integrated with it and we would knee with every takedown - if the opponent's body goes down, the knee comes up. We also did low line kicking and had it integrated with several drills. There is a kali group that trains at out club now, and I've seen them kicking as well.

yeah - they are scored like boxing now, basically.

you should definitely look into it. Let us know how it goes. I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

I don't disagree. My only point is that many parallels do exist. For example spiraling - sport fights spiral on some level - they use listening, following, pushing, yielding, borrowing, etc. but they don't name it like the chinese do. That doesn't mean that it isn't there on some level, just that it isn't named and classified.

as has been said, to get better at kicks, you need to kick. horse stance will not develop your roundhouse.

you guys aree comparing apples and oranges here. Body builders are in shape - but by their standards. They wouldn't last in a ring because their cardio isn't on the same level. On the other hand, the avg mma will not be as strong overall as the avg body builder - two different focuses in training.

good posts, grenadier. On the flexibility issue though, unless you are freaking huge, then that shouldn't be an issue. that myth has been disproved for ages. flexibility has never been an issue for me or a few other big guys in class.

Weight will not help your power. Strength and structure will help your power. Speed will help your power. Weight is just weight, and not synonymous with any of those things. In fact it might even make it harder for you at this stage to achieve the relaxation you need to perform well.

Also, don't think of sparring as something to be "won". Think of it as a lab to experiment with your techniques and find how to make your untested moves tested and functional.

weight will indeed help is power, so long as he's adding usable muscle mass and not fat. speed is only increasable to a certain degree. who punches faster - tyson or mayorga? who do you think punches harder? Why?

excellent point about sparring though.

True if one is training alone .

Case of organized training , the instructor will tell you what to do ( perform 50 front kicks on the bag , and after that do some pushups , etc , etc ,) . It's not just about fighting the bag , it is also performing tecniques on it and the fight would be the last step after you are completly exhosted.

that still doesn't address the point of movement - that is the biggest mistake I see people make on the heavy bags - the don't move, they only strike, standing in the same spot. That reinforces bad habits.

Training on the bag is all about power which is verry important in my style , however you can aquire some speed and movement from bag training

I'm a thai boxer... we're about power as well, however, you also must move - see above point about movement.

It's not always about improving one skill , sometimes you just need to use all the arsenal you have , anyway i don't have a major problem with that since i fight yoshudans in the dojo whenever its possible , sometimes it happens that they are injured or not in the mood to fight me , so back to the bag .

we'll just have to differ on that one. sparring is ALWAYS about skill improvement. it's a training drill. competition is the battlefield. sparring is where you learn. If i want to spar and one person doesn't want to, I find another. There always seems to be at least ONE person. If they are less skilled than me, than I focus on one or two aspects that I need work on anyway and work those.

I don't think I remember seeing any Kali people kick yet. That's not necessarily a "weakness" as much as it is a value judgement on the part of the founders of the art. Adding kicks takes time away from other parts of the art, and if not enough time is taken, then the kicks don't have much value anyways.

kali has kicks. and knees. they don't do any groundwork though - or at least we didn't.

And a lot of them don't .

perhaps - a lot of the older boxers used to punch vertical fisted - if' you're referring to wc punching. Many boxers still throw a hook punch that way. Turning the fist causes cust, however, which is part of why the fist now turns over.

also, the point I was getting at wasn't that tma guys have cross trained western punching, but that on some level, it's all the same anyway. Compare your man sau to a boxing jab...

How do you score and win and how do you pronounce Muay Thai?

muhee tie

as for the scoring, it's similar to boxing. judges watch aggressiviness, technique, etc. scoring areas are all valid international rules areas and striking surfaces are the fist, knee, feet and elbows (but elbows are rarely allowed in america). Sweeping is not allowed, but you can KICK a person's base leg to knock them down. If you catch someone's kick, you can only take two steps while holding the limb. In thailand, however, you can hold the limb and walk them until they fall. A knockdown isn't scored per se in muay thai, but it's similar to an "advantage" in tennis or in grappling - if we are tied in points, but you have knocked me down, then you would win the decision, because you have an advantage point over me.

it's cardio. check this out:

http://www.educom.on.ca/ymca-ywca/2005_leadership.htm

"Cardio Kickbox Certification

Trainers: Jules Hilliker and Peter Douvris

Prerequisite: Group Fitness Certification

Cardio Kickboxing is a popular fitness activity that combines boxing, martial arts and aerobics. This course is considered essential for fitness instructors who intend to introduce cardio kickboxing elements to an existing class or create a complete kickboxing program. Designed in cooperation with the National Capital Region YMCA-YWCA, the Association of Certified Martial Artists and Douvris Martial Arts & Fitness Centres, this course emphasizes the development and recognition of proper form and techniques essential to instruct classes effectively and safely, in accordance with industry and national standards. Course fees include registration, materials, manual and exam.

$150 Y members $200 participants

Saturday & Sunday, June 18 & 19 9 am – 5 pm Metro Central Y "

This thought came to me while watching a boxing match with my brother-in-law. In this match the boxers would move in together, one would hit once or twice and the other would take the blows adn hit back 3 or 4 times. In the end the boxer who hit more times won on points. Now even tho he won the match, this stratergy would get you beaten on the street. Who on the street would just take a hit from and attacker and then dish out bigger better hits?

cool - now let's look at this from a boxer's point of view. I'm moving in, using my jab - yes, one jab - so I can probe this guy - I want to feel him out and set up combinations. Also, by using said jab, I am letting him know something is coming when he tries to close the distance. Now, this isn't a point sparring match that stops when I get hit, no. When he hits me, he will KEEP coming until I fall down, or until I answer back with strikes of my own. here come his strikes - slip, slip bob/weave - throw a few punches back, jab out and disengage. Now, I have to do it again. I'm not fighting an average joe on the street - someone I can just run over fairly easily. This guy is as good as me or BETTER - and that is the key.

When you are fighting someone of equal or greater skill and they are throwing hundreds of strikes at you, you WILL get hit - it can't be avoided. Here's an experiment to try though - go spar with a boxer. Go for several rounds. see how many times you get hit. even though he is used to taking those hits, he will likely hit you more than you hit him, as he's used to being punched at repeatedly and evading the incoming blows.

if you make the first hit your opponent is stunned and you become more likely to make the second hit, and so on.

How often does that happen? What happens when the first hit does not stun him?

Why shouldn't I? A lot of different types of athletes lift weights at the YMCA. I see a lot of the same people every single day and I've gotten to know them and their athletic backgrounds, so why shouldn't I tell them about my athletics pursuits when they ask me? It's not like I go around announcing it to the entire world like some martial artists however is somebody asks me what sport I train in I tell them that I am a full contact kickboxer and a grappler.

that's different. nothing wrong with that.

As for their "certification" that was the point that I was trying to drive home. That they are "certified" by the "YMCA kickboxing association".

*speechless*

After many years of practise we will all hopefully "create" our own style. I am not saying that we will invent a new one but that after mastering a genuine style we will evolve it and make it "our own" without loosing touch with its genuine essence, techniques and principles that were put there by its original founder(s).

exactly.

Sevenstar,

I believe that we are entering the realm of opinions here. However, as far has hitting the temple example is concerned what I am trying to get across is hitting someone on the temple is more likely to have leathal consequences than hitting him in the jaw. If my training is aimed at hitting the temple (and other such targets) then it is consequently absorbed by my muscle memory/subconscious then I do not see any reason to add what I consider to be an irrelevant dimension to my training when I can use the time and effort to better and improve everything else that I need to learn and absorbe in Wing Chun.

I would doubt your chances of killing anyone with a strike to the temple. it CAN happen, but how likely is it, which is pretty much what I am getting at. you are trying to hit a little spot on a resisting, moving target. I am doing the same. If either land, the fight may end. If you miss my temple, the blow may or may not be enough to still knock me out. My punch to your jaw may miss its mark, but has a better chance of still rattling your brain and causing a KO. Either way though, it's a game of chances.

I believe that your definition of Wing Chun is VERY different from the Wing Chun that I practise.

please, don't hesitate to clarify. What is your definition, and what all do you do that is not allowed in any fighting venue?

Not the guys I know. Besides you are right about altering their "Game".

not their game, their training. adding sparring, roadwork, groundwork, etc. Their game can remain the same.

They train pretty hard and do lots of Randori.

according to a couple of other san soo guys on this forum, they don't randori at all.

sevenstar; Im 27 actually, but I do think MMA have no desire to learn the mental benefits of TMA. Thas not really the concern right?

on that issue, I agree with you. I don't have that desire either. You mentioned manners, however, which is different - I'm no less mannerable than I was before I started training; more aggressive, but not less mannerable.

Im a TMA, and as I get more involved in training for MMA it seems much more hardcore and aggresive which makes me that way in comparison to how I was with just TMA training.

training can do that for some people. I'm known of that to happen to some southern mantis guys also.