MatsuShinshii

IMO there’s a great reason for jumping, spinning, etc. kicks. Even kicks above one’s own waist - to develop athleticism, agility, coordination, etc. I don’t believe there’s any genuinely combative application for them, but that doesn’t make them worthless by any means. There’s no genuine combative application for pushups, squats, etc., but I don’t think anyone could say doing them is worthless. I agree with you. I did not say that we do not utilize higher kicks to gain flexibility. We just do not use these exercises as real kicks for real scenario's. In my experience and in all of the fights that I have been in over the years and those that I have seen there is one truth... close quarters. Distance fighting only works if both parties wish to fight at a distance. So high kicks are impractical at best in 99.9% of a real fight. I'm sure someone will have a story about how they use them in real fights all of the time but in my experience they are useless other than to gain and remain flexible. If it starts off at a distance or you have perfect timing and can get to a distance in order to throw one of these kicks before the distance is closed then great. However it's been my experience that I can close the distance thus negating the leg all together and take advantage of their lack of balance and bad positioning. To each their own. Nothing says that I am an expert in all things and if high/jumping/spinning kicks work for you then ignore what I am saying. For me they do not work. Just one mans opinion and nothing more. I’m not good at highlighting and chopping up posts... I love what you say about the high/jumping/spinning kicks - they’re EXERCISES. Perfect way to describe them IMO. My father and his brothers were TKD black belts in Beirut, Lebanon in the late 60s-mid 70s. They told me they did those kicks as line drills, but never did them sparring. Except MAYBE if they were being very casual (in a good way) during light sparring. They kicked thigh to rib height, and didn’t wear all the “armor.” Maybe that was exclusive to their school, general area, and/or era though. And I agree - I’m sure there’s a few people who could pull those off in an actual fight, and im definitely not one of them either. Nor do I care much to be. I feel if I could pull off one of those in an actual fight, the guy I’m fighting has to be so bad that I might as well knock him out with a well placed punch or two. Doing one of those kicks would just be showing off. Well put and this definitely describes my views as well. That and I'm too old to be spinning and jumping around.

Yes sir I can not argue with that logic because it is absolutely true. Great point!

Absolutely. But having all that access can be a double edged sword. I could easily go on YouTube and find someone who’ll contradict what my teacher is teaching and believe that, when the guy on YouTube is no more credible than some guy on the streets that never deserved any attention from me. And with all this technology at our fingertips, we’ve become a very instant gratification society. Why put in 5-10 years to get a black belt when someone down the street can get you to black belt in 2 years? I guess the 2 years teacher must be a genius because he can teach you everything you need to know in 1/2 - 1/4 the time it takes the other guy to do the same thing. A guy my CI worked with was a 2nd dan at a TKD place down the road. It took him 3 years to get to 2nd dan. He came to our dojo to train a bit with my CI and spar with different people. How skilled was he? According to my CI, about as skilled as any average student with 3 years of training; about 4th kyu level. This is true but the problem is the instructors mind set of "they are just belts". The grading system doesn't represent or mean what it did when I was starting out. I don't know if it's because there are more belts and thus have less meaning/value or instructors don't care as long as the student comes back and continues to pay. A Shodan today couldn't be called the same 30 years ago. A sandan today couldn't be called a Shodan 30 years ago to be perfectly honest in most cases. Standards have been sacrificed to the fast food mentality and the ego that this generation has of themselves. They think they are perfect because this is what they are told by parents and heaven help you if you dare not to acknowledge that greatness by way of speedy promotions, deserving or not. I will not say I understand the plight of the business owner and what sacrifices they must make to keep the doors open. I realize it's not that simple. However if your receiving your Shodan you should be representative of a Shodan, not a Sankyu wearing a black belt. Just my 2 cents for what that's worth.

I did not read them all but you just listed modern dojo kun.

Well I would say you are a huge leg up on us. I hate to admit this but it's included into our applications. It is taught as if you're executing the Kata on the ground. We are told that this was passed down and no one older than I will admit any differently but in my assessment someone at some point decided that a ground element was needed and made the Kata suite this need rather than it actually coming from the Kata. I will say some of the applications work and are effective but I don't buy into it being extracted from the Kata nor does my research support this. It is basically a hodge podge of techniques to get back to your feet. There is absolutely no viable techniques that would allow you to stay on the ground and battle an experienced grappler. I completely agree with that. I've seen a number of people insist that kata are passing on groundwork techniques (mostly Naihanchi), and my research does not support that as being historically accurate, nor does my experience with grappling support it. Now, there are certainly techniques and postures in kata that can be applied on the ground, but the mechanics are different. I don't mind people going "this grappling technique is like the one from this kata, but you do it this way on the ground." That's different from "Naihanchi is a groundfighting kata." There are some historical examples of groundwork techniques from karate--Itoman's book has a few, for example--but nothing nearly as involved as you see in Judo, BJJ, or wrestling. That's what tegumi/muto was for. Agreed. I assume that your reference to Muto/ Tegumi is in reference to throws, take downs, sweeps, off balancing techniques and the like and not ground fighting? If you do mean ground fighting I am definitely missing something and would love if you could point me in the right direction as my art and my research has never given me an example of ground fighting in terms of Muto/Tegumi. If this is the case I am very excited to learn how this translates and how wrong I've been in terms of my art not containing any real ground fighting skills. Can you clarify on this please?

Luther Unleashed, Excellent explanation of the Kata and applications. I can't say I don't concur with your points. I do however feel that a bit of clarification is needed. I don't want to speak for you but I assume that you are speaking primarily about what is called now days Practical Applications vs. what I call the Founders Applications. If the founders applications have been passed down in your art they look like the postures contained within the Kata. This is largely due to the fact that most, not all, come from Quan Fa. If you study the Chinese martial arts manuals you see posture after posture. The applications to these postures look like the posture represented. This is due to the fact that the posture IS the representation of the application itself. Think of it as a snap shot. A single picture meant to define the whole movement. So it must look similar if it is to work as it was originally developed. Of course the height and angle of your body (arms/legs) might change to some degree based on your opponent. As you pointed out real life trumps and if you're fighting a smaller or larger opponent you will need to adapt to this condition. So in this way the resemblance might be skewed but can be recognized. In terms of practical applications you are trying to break down the movements, analyze them and apply them. You will need to adjust some of the movements in order to make the applications work unless you get lucky and stumble upon the original intent. All applications whether passed down from the founder or whether created by you or your instructor must meet two rules that are etched in stone. 1. It must be efficient. 2. It must have the potential to end the fight. In meeting these rules one sometimes must alter the original posture to make the application work. This is due to trial and error of finding what works. This is primarily covered in the three stages - Bunkai = to break down, Bunseki = to analyze and Oyo = to apply. Once you think you understand what the posture represents you must proof it against a non-compliant opponent to see if it actually works. In this exercise more than not you will find that it doesn't work and instead of going back to the drawing board or doing research on the arts that influenced your art to find what it may represent, it is altered in order to make it work. The internet is chock full of these "applications" that do not resemble the Kata's posture. I believe the main reason that some applications do not resemble the posture found in the Kata is due to trying to make it fit into what the creator deems it should be rather than what it is supposed to be. Example: it's almost a fade now days to turn every application into a throw, or maintain what is most familiar and make it a strike. If altered enough you can see how to turn any application into what you would like it to be and thus no match to the Kata. It looks different because in order to make it meet the rules of a viable application it must be altered in order for it to work. If you have been taught the founders applications your mind is opened to the possibilities and can see what the postures might also represent in addition to the founders applications and can maintain the integrity of the posture. If you haven't and you have gotten your source of knowledge from lets say the 1000's of Youtube videos then it is harder to see what the potential is of a posture and it must be altered in order to make it a viable effective application. I agree with most of your points but for the founders applications your statement is not exactly all together correct. By the way I love that you compared the Kata to a Library. It's a great analogy of how it contains the art through the applications. Very well put. I have always used one of my dad's sayings to describe the importance of the Kata and the applications that they contain. He always said that the person with the most tools in the end wins. He loved tools. However he also said that there is a right tool for every job. The way I see the Kata and it's applications is tools that I can add to my tool box. We are taught the fundamentals (Kihon) but if that is where we stop our learning we only have so many tools and thus can only do so many jobs. The applications (Individual, sequenced, grouped) add additional tools so that no matter how we are attacked we will have an answer (the right tool for the job). The limitations of the applications are limitless. For a small example of this; lets say every Kata contains only 40 postures, 2/3 of them are mirrored so lets say you have 25 postures. Lets also say that you teach 16 Kata. That's 400 Postures. If we look at the posture in terms of every posture represents a founders application we have 400 applications. This is not the case as we have some Kata like Naihanchi that contain many applications for each posture. But for the sake of making this point we'll say on average there are 1.5 applications for each posture to keep it conservative. That is 600 applications. Now when we couple this with the sequential moves (postures that go together to form an application (we'll say this only represents 4 out of every Kata. This now equals 664 applications. Now if we realize that an application from the Kata can be put together with other applications from the same Kata - lets say this represents a third =8 this equals = 792 applications. Then when we realize that we have more Kata and we can mix an application from one Kata with another, we''ll say this represents 2/3rds (16) that's1,048 applications. Now if we add practical applications and each posture now represents 3 applications minus the founders applications - this equals 1,200 applications plus the above final founders total = 2,248 applications. If you run this through with the sequential and grouped examples above you get the picture. This is very conservative but serves to make my point. Kihon or basics only give you so many techniques that you then have to have an analytical mind to put into combinations and scenarios and you still don't come close to having enough tools. When you study the Kata and it's applications you add a limitless amount of tools. To me the Kata and it's applications are the total representation of the art.

All beginning students learn the fundamentals of the art - how to punch, kick, strike correctly. They are taught the proper body mechanics and how to transition from one stance to the next. Having said that, and again, not like it is shown on the video for our art. I'm not sure how 27 movements translate into a benefit. If the student doesn't understand the body mechanics of the basics, how does putting them together accomplish anything? My answer would be no.

I'm not sure anyone can classify that as a real fight. It looked to me like a sparring match between a tournament style black belt and a white belt/ total novice. He had no idea what he was doing. He was slapping and using hammer fist strikes that never really connected. I won't take anything away from her because you can tell she has some skills but honestly if the guy had half a mind to pound her into the ground instead of constantly letting her go the fight would've been over quick. Nothing more than patty cakes! He definitely needs to learn how to fight before facing anyone again. Weak at best but I have to give it to the one point wonder (girl) because he did pretty much nothing.

Well since I do not teach anyone under the age of 16, I was speaking of what I would consider adults or at least pre-adults. 16 was considered an adult years ago in Okinawa which is where this rule came from for our organization. Unfortunately I have found this not to be the case in the last 10 to 15 years. I expect a 16 year old to have more maturity than younger children but to be honest most (not all) remind me of an 8 or 10 year old child when it comes to maturity level. But this is only my observation and may not be indicative of all area's around the country. At least I pray it's not or this country is on a serious down slid.

Thanks for the history. I had not read that. It's appreciated.

IMO there’s a great reason for jumping, spinning, etc. kicks. Even kicks above one’s own waist - to develop athleticism, agility, coordination, etc. I don’t believe there’s any genuinely combative application for them, but that doesn’t make them worthless by any means. There’s no genuine combative application for pushups, squats, etc., but I don’t think anyone could say doing them is worthless. I agree with you. I did not say that we do not utilize higher kicks to gain flexibility. We just do not use these exercises as real kicks for real scenario's. In my experience and in all of the fights that I have been in over the years and those that I have seen there is one truth... close quarters. Distance fighting only works if both parties wish to fight at a distance. So high kicks are impractical at best in 99.9% of a real fight. I'm sure someone will have a story about how they use them in real fights all of the time but in my experience they are useless other than to gain and remain flexible. If it starts off at a distance or you have perfect timing and can get to a distance in order to throw one of these kicks before the distance is closed then great. However it's been my experience that I can close the distance thus negating the leg all together and take advantage of their lack of balance and bad positioning. To each their own. Nothing says that I am an expert in all things and if high/jumping/spinning kicks work for you then ignore what I am saying. For me they do not work. Just one mans opinion and nothing more.

Well I would say you are a huge leg up on us. I hate to admit this but it's included into our applications. It is taught as if you're executing the Kata on the ground. We are told that this was passed down and no one older than I will admit any differently but in my assessment someone at some point decided that a ground element was needed and made the Kata suite this need rather than it actually coming from the Kata. I will say some of the applications work and are effective but I don't buy into it being extracted from the Kata nor does my research support this. It is basically a hodge podge of techniques to get back to your feet. There is absolutely no viable techniques that would allow you to stay on the ground and battle an experienced grappler.

Body positioning is very important. As Sensei8 stated it is involved in everything we do. Getting outside of your opponents path and positioning yourself to be able to counter is the key in Shuri-te style arts. Circular movement over linear in some cases and a combination in the rest.

Alan, I agree to a large degree with your statement. As kids we were told to go outside and play. Our entertainment was not the TV but the woods or sports. I see this through my nephews and nieces and my friends kids. They are attached to their electronics 24/7 and would have a melt down if told to go outside and play. This is not their faults but their parents. They have never been taught moderation.

I just threw up. Little whoever doesn't like the word no? What is wrong with parents today? You can't punish your child in today's society even if it's to instill right and wrong in their mind but then these same people wonder how little Johnny ended up in jail or in the morgue. Worse yet why little Johnny still lives in their basement. Today's PC atmosphere is counter productive to producing respectable productive individuals. I say no all of the time to students, family, customers, coworkers and employee's. And I get the same answer a lot as well. What does little Johnny do when he has to go out into the real world where he's not the best thing since sliced bread? Parents need to get a grip. Teach them to be good people and a good work ethic and you won't have to just tell them they are great, you'll actually mean it and they will turn out great. Coddling your child and protecting them from the realities of the world do them no justice. All they are doing is setting them up for a bigger fall. Wow! Sorry for getting on the soap box but that is a big pet peeve for me.

I can respect that.

Not in those terms and not that number but yes I/we practice the foundational techniques.

I am of the mind set that if your intent and mannerisms tell me that you are going to get violent then I have no issue taking you out before you get that chance. I get that the quote has other meanings. However walk into many schools today and they are teaching that there is no first strike, literally, and that the fight should start and end with a block. Many take this literally. To me the art is to protect yourself, your family and those unable to protect themselves. First, second or whatever. I strike when I feel that it's justified.

This is what I expected to find. I too utilize techniques that are not directly found in the Kata. This does not mean that they are not found within the art though. Wastelander you mentioned Mawashi Geri, we also utilize this technique but classify it as coming from Ti rather than Toudi. If you look at Muay Boran, which influenced Ti, you find this kick executed to the outside/inside of the leg. We also utilize strikes not found within the Kata as well but can be found sprinkled through our Ti training. I personally find no issue with incorporating other techniques for personal improvement. I just do not teach it as if it where apart of the art if it does not come from the art (Ti'gwa or Quan Fa). We teach this as, in addition to, the art. Personally I would love to see Ne Waza incorporated as an, In Addition To, our art as an answer to the ground fighting that is so prevalent today. Our ground fighting, if you want to call it that, is weak at best and only covers getting back to the feet and not what to do if you get caught on the ground with a skilled ground fighting practitioner. But this is not something that our organization believes in so it's up to the individual to find this outside of class. I appreciate the responses and I'd like to say I was surprised but this is exactly what I expected to find. I think that this boils down to human nature in that if you do not have a tool for a specific job because it's not in your tool box, you'll go and find a tool that works. I find this to be in the spirit of the founders as they took many arts and condensed them into one. However, and I may be alone on this, I still find no use for high or jump spinning kicks. I have studied and used them in different arts but find no use in actual conflicts. I'm sure others here do and that is great because whatever works for you is right. Just not right for me and as a result I do not teach them. We have the Yoko Tobi Geri (flying/Jumping Side Kick) in our Kata and find no use for it either. Ironic, but I guess you don't have too many occasions to fight someone on horse back. Sarcasm!

This is just a fact of life and will happen throughout your life. Since you did not go into any detail of the situation, I would say you have four choices; 1. ignore what is said and let it be their problem and not your's. 2. Confront the individual and settle the dispute between the two of you. 3. Get the instructor involved IF it is disrupting your training. 4. Find another school. Personally I would not let someones opinion direct my life. Let the issue be there's and just train. Its a personal journey and they have no power over it's direction unless you give them that power. Having said that if it is creating issues for you where you feel like you're going to need to leave or it is effecting your relationships with other in the school I would first confront this individual to see if it can be worked out and if that did not work I would definitely speak with the instructor about it and see if that doesn't solve the issue. I would imagine that the instructor is already aware of the issue but is allowing the two of you to deal with it or until it disrupts the class.

The video and Alans post leads to an interesting question; if this is the meaning of Karate to you, would you face down a skilled Kenjutsu practitioner with a live blade and not utilize all of the tools that the art has to offer in which to save your life? A more interesting question is if the founders only wanted us to use defensive techniques then why did they include offensive techniques in their art? If fights begin and end with blocks then why include strikes, kicks, and the like into the art to begin with? I know what the overwhelming response will be and the philosophy behind it but I still wonder what everyone thinks. Should be interesting to hear all points of view.

How many use techniques that do not come directly from their art. For clarity sake lets confine this to the techniques found within the Kata only. Do you practice strikes, punches, kicks, etc. that are not found in your Kata's? I was responding to a post and explaining how many kicks have been added as Kihon but are not found within the Kata and it got me to wondering just how many practice techniques that are not from their own art during class.

That's so true. LOL!!!!

Well in order to understand the training then you have to understand that most would only take on worthy students. This simply put meant that most teachers would have their potential students prove themselves before they would actually start teaching them. The major focus was conditioning training to see if their will would break and if they had the proper attitude and character they were looking for in a student. However this was not the primary focus once accepted by the teacher. To the bold above - conditioning or Hojo Undo is a part of training. In some arts it is more important and in others it is a small part of training. You are making a pretty broad statement about all Okinawan arts that is not true. Our primary focus is on the Kata and the applications that it contains. Conditioning is a part of our training (a small part of class) and is done primarily outside of the Dojo by the individual. The focus is to learn how to defend oneself not to look like Arnold. The Dojo is not a Gym. I think your basis of argument is flawed as there many disciplines and no two are exactly the same. I have to correct your historical statement as well. Funakoshi as well as everyone else that was studying the art (Toudi or Ti'gwa) then was of class lineage, albeit in his case of lower Pechin class. Itosu dumbed down the art in order to teach it to the commoners and to school children. It's focus was physical fitness not combative training. Most of the combative elements (Chibudi, Tuiti, Tegumi, Ti and Quan Fa) were removed. The Kata was taught without explanation. The intent of the Kata was changed and the applications were for all intents and purposes replaced, removed or taught as something else. Example - blocks. This is also why modern arts question elements of the Kata like throws and are now creating applications because the founders applications were not passed down to them. I was thinking more of Japanese karate when I wrote. I'm not sure how your comment corrected my historical comment. What is chibudi? and what form does ti take in Okinawan karate? Chibudi is what you might know better as Kyusho or Dim Mak. To the bold - it is the foundation. Ti or Ti'gwa is the indigenous percussive impart art of Okinawa. It's the reason we use closed fists instead of all open hand techniques. It went hand in hand with Muto or Tegumi and Buki'gwa or Kobudo to make the fighting art that the ancient warriors used. It was influenced by Muay Boran and later by Quan Fa or Gung Fu and this is where "Karate" came from. Toudi which is the culmination of the arts listed above and Ti'gwa were both practiced on Okinawa. Very few arts especially what I would call Japanized arts understand or know these applications or techniques because the emphasis was on striking and physical fitness when the Japanese altered the art. Having said that, it was altered prior to being introduced to the Japanese. Itosu altered it to make it available to commoners and school children. I hope that answers your question without going into my typical novel size post. I'm rushed for time today.

If they came to learn from me with such an attitude, and it did not change by the time I tested them for their entry belt; they would not make it any further regardless. I am not a commercial teacher; I instruct for the pleasure of it, and because of my passion for karate. What this means, is that people get a trial period to demonstrate that they are the correct fit for my group. The only answer I can give is that I give them my 100% as a teacher until they are no longer my student. I do not teach a style or a syllabus per se; I just teach karate, so it is hard to say whether I am passing on full knowledge because that is rather nebulous in my case. I just pass on all I can, and try to give my students the knowledge that fits their goals and needs. This question essentially sums up why I got out of teaching commercially. I can appreciate where you are coming from as I too teach for the love of the art and not as a career. For me passing on 100% of my knowledge is easy and then again not so easy. As far as "syllabus" is concerned, this is the easy part as all that is contained within the Kata is our syllabus and all is passed on. As far as the research and knowledge I have gained over the last 4 decades is harder to answer as they would have to read what I have read, experience what I have experienced and see what I have seen to gain absolute insight. Having said that I try to pass on the knowledge I have compiled without forcing them to read over 2000 books and manuals, contact over 80 instructors of other arts, study (and I use this term loosely as I am not sure I can actually define it as study when you are looking for specifics or to learn a specific form, Hsing, Kata to gain insight) 13 arts, and experience 40 years of experiences. I feel that we as teachers have an obligation to pass on the art to the next generation so that the art can survive as it was taught to us. I think the most important thing that is passed on is the art as it was passed down to us unaltered. If we can add to that based on our experiences and personal knowledge and study, this would be an added bonus. But the art itself must be the main focus. I think that it is even more important these days with every teacher wanting to place their personal preferences and whims on the art. Most have gone the way of sport, a larger portion have gone the way of philosophy and sport and there are very few that maintain the integrity of the original art as it was passed down to them. Give it 100 more years and you will probably not even recognize the art as a combative art but more of a hybrid sport mixed with philosophy and virtually zero viable combative applications whatsoever. To me the way I show my gratitude to the generations that passed down the founders art is to teach it as it was taught to me. I know I don't have much company in my old fashion views but this is what I believe whether others agree or not. To me, seeing the next generation carry on what has given so much to me is the only real way I can show my appreciation to my teachers and for the art that has for more than 3/4 of my life time given me so much.