MatsuShinshii

to the bold: Whoever is teaching this has never fought with a knife. Don't listen to this as you will be shredded.

That's why most of us pay someone who does know what they're doing to share that knowledge with us. It's just unfortunate that many prefer to withhold that knowledge, or disguise the fact that they know less than they'd like us to believe by being intentionally cryptic while pretending they're doing their students a favour by letting them work it out for themselves. I think this is an issue with traditional martial arts in this day and age. The old cryptic sage approach probably worked well 100 years ago, when a master had one or two students, and there were very few teachers around. Nowadays we have a wealth of information readily available from many sources covering many styles. The MMA guys have capitalised on this and done exceptionally well in many aspects of combat and fitness and such. Armies the world over capitalise on it and train their soldiers in a very short time to be effective at real aspects of combat and restraint and crowd control etc. The more orthodox traditionalists still hang on to the cryptic old sage approach and it's great (I subscribe to it myself to some extent). That's great for spiritual development but for anyone wanting to learn the fighting arts it's a very outdated approach. To the bold; I disagree with your assessment of traditional. Traditional in my terminology vs. what most modern schools that consider themselves traditional is totally different. Traditional or what I term as old school is not the western societies coinage of the word. There are no mystic sages holding back knowledge. To the contrary. Before the recent boom in "Bunkai" (wrong usage of the word by the way) our teachers were teaching Tichiki. They also did not hold back the "hidden or secret" dangerous techniques. I think your confusing traditional with modern western instructors that do not know these techniques and thus tell their students that learning on your own is the way it's done. This teaching methodology is often confused with an old school teacher wanting their students to develop analytical thinking and development. Yes we do give our students leeway when it comes to self discovery but the foundation is already there and NOTHING is held back. This is primarily the reasoning behind not taking on anyone under the age of 16. Of course that rule does take into consideration their maturity level so there are no guarantees of acceptance no matter the age. It really falls down to responsibility of the instructor to identify those that are mature enough to learn those "hidden or secret or deadly" techniques. There is nothing secret nor hidden in the arts unless you don't know the techniques/applications in the first place. Then you say these catch phrases to cover your ignorance. However there are deadly techniques that are taught to mature responsible students. There in lies the problem and the adage "hidden or secret" when it comes to teaching those not able to handle or responsible enough to be taught these techniques. Although you have to know them first. Teaching children how to crush the trachea or to strike certain Chibudi points (arteries, veins, nerves, tendons, ligaments, and vital organs), etc. is not what a responsible teacher does and thus, for these teachers, the term "hidden or secret" is used so as to hold off until the maturity level is reached. Traditional? Depends on your definition.

The modern sport of Tegumi, as far as I know, does not. It is much closer to it's Japanese cousin Sumo. Pre-War Tegumi did continue on the ground, and involved pinning and submission techniques, not unlike Indian Pehlwani. Regarding Tegumi and Karate practice, this particular aspect varies from Dojo to Dojo. To the bold; The ground fighting aspect comes from Gao Quan and Dishu Quan which are essentially the the same art. However the objective in Muto is not to pin and submit the opponent but to create time and distance to afford you time to get back to your feet. This is done by means of creating distance by kicks to force the opponent to maintain their distance, by means of damage due to kicking the limbs thus giving an opportunity to get back to your feet, by means of sweeping or taking down the opponent thus giving you an opportunity to return to your feet. The common misconception is that Tegumi had/has a component of ground fighting like Jujutsu whereas the practitioner pulls or takes the opponent down to the ground to pin or submit. This is not the intent or goal of this component. The goal is always to return to your feet which is where you engage the opponent. There is no (at least I have never been taught) a submissive/pinning side of the ground fighting component of Muto (Tegumi). Often times this is from another art being passed off as Muto. Having said that the throws, takedowns, sweeps and off balancing techniques are both similar and also very different from modern wrestling, Judo, Jujutsu, Aikido, etc. The intent is definitely different as it's not meant to win points but to damage the opponent. The throws are performed to slam or up end an opponent so as to drop them on there head vs. throwing them to their backs.

I agree most wholeheartedly with Brian!! Now, there's the dictionary definition, then there's the MAist definition; oftentimes, they're both worlds apart!! Did not know I was giving a dictionary definition. That was from a martial artist... Me.

To all that replied I appreciate your thoughts. To me the grade should represent more than the wearing of a belt. To me the belt means nothing by itself. It has no special powers nor does it possess great wisdom or knowledge. This means it passes nothing on to the wearer. Unfortunately times have changed. When I started these grades meant so much more than just having a belt. Today I see the You-tube masters with skills and knowledge (or the lack there of) that do not represent the grade they wear. I have seen Dojo's open with those claiming this grade or that but would run at the slightest provocation because the person wearing the belt has no real skills or knowledge. This is my 2 cents on this subject; I believe that the person is the grade and not the other way around. However when the grades of Yudansha and Kodansha are degraded to "just another belt" what does that person now represent. We as instructors can degrade the art or elevate it. We can be proud of what we inherited and teach or we can sell it down the river as a commodity. If the grades (Shodan thru Judan) are held at the same standards as the Mudansha grades then the students will continue this when they start teaching and e-rode the standards further until it's a little less than another place to get your fitness on. The belt by itself means nothing. Take mine away and I'm still the same grade and still have the same ability and knowledge. It does however symbolize the student. It's what it symbolizes that's important. As instructors it's up to us to decide what we want it to symbolize. To me it means much more than just the color of a belt. To me it is the high standards that I had to meet to be given the right to wear a specific grade. It is the carrying of the torch and my turn to maintain the same standards that my Shinshii and his and his and his had in maintaining the standards of the founder. It is the pride that I can say that anyone that obtains any of the Yudansha grades can handle themselves and not just check off a required curriculum of techniques. It is the pride I feel when I carry on the lineage and traditions that I was lucky enough to be taught. It's not a belt but a legacy. It's not a belt but a responsibility. Its not a belt but an honor and a duty to maintain high standards and maintain an art that I can be proud of. Change the color to whatever you wish, remove the belt all together and have no belts. What then? How would we ever know when we have obtained enough knowledge to be considered advanced? Easy, like Sensei8 always says the proof is on the floor. How many of these so called BB's that say it's just another belt would hold up as an advanced grade if there wasn't a belt to symbolize it? I'd say not as many as you'd think. Why then would you give a belt to a student that without it others would think was a lesser grade? Make any sense? At all? What then does the students of lesser grades then think about the grade? I bet their standards for themselves are lessened when they see subpar students wearing what they are attempting to earn. It's an endless spiral. I fail to see why it's a bad thing to demand higher standards to obtain higher grades. So many get angry at the mere suggestion that the Yudansha and Kodansha grades hold a higher place or should be harder to obtain than the Mudansha grades. . The belt does not hold value without the one that wears it. However if the one that wears it has no substance what then does the belt symbolize? I get the concept that it's a belt. However it's what it represents rather than it's color that means something. How many of you in their 50's and older were given anything? How many of your teachers reduced requirements so you could get to wear a black piece of material? How many of your teachers ignored the fact that you couldn't fight and still tested you to Yudansha? Why then would our standards change? If the standard is no longer proving that you are more than just a wet noodle that learned all of the required curriculum and can regurgitate it on command then at what grade do you prove that you can hold your own? At what grade are you capable? At what grade are you more than just a curriculum. If all there is is a curriculum, where is the depth? What type of future teachers are produced? At what point do you become a black belt? If there are lowered standards I guess anyone can teach as well? What does that mean for the art in the future? Not pretty IMHO. Oh and I also believe that the student represents the teacher and the art. This is, at least to me, a very good reason to maintain higher standards. If the student is mediocre then what do you thing others (potential students) think about you and the art? Well other than those that want a free pass. There's my 2 cents.

I have used it but it doesn't seem to work for me. If I have inflammation I use white willow bark or thunder god vine. For me it works 100% better than tiger balm.

We were similar in that starting we had two belt colors (white and black) then they added two additional colors (exactly the same as you, I think they got this from the Matsubayashi Ryu system) and then Shinshii went a little bit hay wired and added yellow, orange and blue to the mix. Before he retired many of us attempted to convinced him to return to the four belt system for which he removed the orange and the blue but kept the Yellow. After his retirement I dropped the yellow and have the exact arrangement you speak of. White - Hachikyu thru Shechikyu, Green - Rokkyu thru Yonkyu, Brown - Sankyu thru Ikkyu. We do however look at beginner, intermediate and advanced differently than you. Beginner is Hachikyu thru Yonkyu, Intermediate is Sankyu thru Nidan, Advanced is Sandan on. It doesn't exactly follow our levels of Mudansha - Hachikyu thru Ikkyu to Yudansha Shodan thru Yondan to Kodansha - Godan thru Kudan but it works for us.

If your looking at something to affix to the floor that you can strike, why not a Makiwara? They are very easy to make, cheap and give outstanding results. Just saying...

Most schools wear all white or all black or black top/white pants or vise versa. However I have noticed in watching a few you-tube video's many choice colors and color combinations. I have nothing against this (and could care less what color Gi someone wears) but I'm wondering if they have meaning. In my art you wear all white until you reach the Yudansha grades (but only when you've proven you can fight/handle yourself, some never get there) and you are able to wear a black Gi top. For us it symbolizes that the wearer has proven themselves and are worthy of the change of color. I'm wondering if red or blue or yellow or whatever color or combination means something and is earned or is just another Gi in a different color (basically the students choice). Or maybe even the instructors choice. Maybe that's their favorite color and they want to see all of their students wearing it. Just to clarify I'm not talking about team colors for tournaments. These are colors worn in every day classes.

What does it mean to you? Just a belt or something more? To clarify before the "it's just another belt" crowd takes off, I mean Shodan through Judan. Pick a grade, any grade, your grade. What does it mean to you personally? Is it more than just cloth or is it just another stepping stone to the next grade? Just interested.

Happy birthday!

Welcome to KF!

I film Yudansha testings and send to the Hombu as proof and as a kind of insurance and total disclosure. No improprieties. I never video tape myself or any of my classes or Mudansha tests.

Agreed.

I agree. If I might add another question based on your comment; I agree that it definitely needs to be kept between you and the student for obvious reasons, but what if it gets out? Or another twist - what if they overcome their financial difficulties and just never tell you? More or less take advantage of the situation and your good nature. More importantly what would you do? Raise their fee's back up? Talk to them about it? Demand back pay? Don't get me wrong I agree with your statement and have done this myself. However once you open Pandora's box it's hard to close it as you set a precedence from that point forward. Just interested in what you guys and gals would do should you decide to help a student out and they either tell others (creating a chain effect in your student body) or if they manage to get out of their jam and just never offer to pay the full tuition (essentially taking advantage of the situation and your kindness).

I totally agree. Economy of motion becomes the hallmark of the older, more experienced Martial Artist, and I really think it is due to necessity. The older we get, the harder it is to get loose, get warmed up, and generally move the body around. For me, a jumping, spinning side kick has become a switch-foot spin side kick that doesn't get too high off the ground, but is aimed to drive into the ribs and drive that young pup back and away from me. Or, I close in fast and "hook" them on the arm just a bit, and then rain blows down over the top of them with my other hand. Its these little things in life that bring a smile to my face anymore. That's it in a nut shell. The words escaped me but that is exactly the wording to describe it.

Tegumi is grappling, clinching, throws, takedowns, sweeps and off balancing techniques to reduce it down to a simple answer. In a deeper meaning it is combined with aspects of Tuidi, Chi'gwa, Chibudi, and Atemi (percussive impact), and Ti'gwa as a complete art. Like others have stated it is practiced in two person drill as stand alone techniques like Judo is practiced. It is also practiced in the form of Kata applications where it is the singular or part of a flow of other elements of the art to achieve the desired effect, to end the fight.

Along with great power comes great responsibility. (Have no idea who said that ). The bottom line is it is a responsibility to know when to use our skills and to what extent. To be able to identify a real threat or just someone talking big with no real intention. Empathy, humility and common sense play a huge factor. Those that would use skills easily are beginners that have no real understanding of the skills they possess or what damage they can do. I think this falls down to two parts of responsibility. One the instructor not only teaching but informing. And two the individuals knowing what they can do and when it is appropriate to use their skills. As MA'ist this becomes our way of life and beyond learning and perfecting the skills comes the individual responsibility to know when to use them and to what extent. To the bold above, you took the words right out of my mouth. Teaching the techniques we do teach is the easy part, really. Teaching our students when and how to recognize danger, and then how to deal with it appropriately, is the tougher part. That being the case, its so important that we spend the necessary time teaching it. I Agree.

Congrats!

Along with great power comes great responsibility. (Have no idea who said that ). The bottom line is it is a responsibility to know when to use our skills and to what extent. To be able to identify a real threat or just someone talking big with no real intention. Empathy, humility and common sense play a huge factor. Those that would use skills easily are beginners that have no real understanding of the skills they possess or what damage they can do. I think this falls down to two parts of responsibility. One the instructor not only teaching but informing. And two the individuals knowing what they can do and when it is appropriate to use their skills. As MA'ist this becomes our way of life and beyond learning and perfecting the skills comes the individual responsibility to know when to use them and to what extent.

I could not agree with you anymore Sensei8 but unfortunately this is the way of the world. When you figure out how to change the mindset of 99% of the schools out there let me know. Until then I think you and all of us are stuck with it. However that does not mean you must fall into this trap nor practice it within your own Dojo.

That's very true. I have good days and then I have great days. Reminds me of the old bull and young bull parable. I'll stop at that.

Yes. Yes and Yes! We practice it via the applications of the Kata and also in two person drills. One simple example is in Pinan Shodan. The sequence of diagonal left step to lower block (step 1) to upper block (step 2) to diagonal right lower block (step 3) to upper block (step 4). The application that we practice is taking Step 2 and 3 and putting them together in a sequence. First off we have no blocks, so you step outside of your opponents block and brush/seize their weapon with the Kosa/Hikite hand and step forward and utilize the Jodan Uke and strike to the base of the skull (you may not have seen this or have practiced this but in most old school arts it can still be found, instead of rising up and forward it raaises up in an arch and snaps back like a reverse Uraken or back hand strike which you can use the knuckles or another version where you use the first knuckle of the thumb) and then lower that hand and stick the thumb into the collar, step out diagonally to the right and execute a gedan Uke which is actually the take down. If you step forward a bit with the left foot you trap the opponents leg at the side of the knee and you can potentially tear the tendons. So if you're working with a Uke skip this step and just turn so they go down without the damage. There are hundreds if not thousands of examples of Muto contained within the Kata. The aforementioned is just one simple example. If you get the chance (can not remember the books title) look up Gichin Funakoshi's book. It contains I believe what is now referred to as the "lost throws", LOL. It's been a decade or more since I last read this book so you'll have to do a bit of research to find the right book but I believe it's something along the lines of Karate Jutsu. Some one on here will know the title. However I would recommend researching Jiao Li as well. Since many of our Muto (Tegumi) applications come from this art you will find many throws, take downs, sweeps and off balancing techniques. It doesn't take much to see techniques that translate to these applications within the Kata. You will also find that the throws in particular are very similar to what is found in Judo, Jujutsu and most grappling arts. The difference is it's older than those arts thus the sometimes mistaken notion that you have injected Judo into the art for throws. Don't get me wrong there a lot of instructors that do use Judo throws. Although they are similar they are not the same and the execution is slightly different as well. Just a little personal advice... don't just practice Muto and Atemi. You should be utilizing this along with Tuidi, Chi'gwa, Chibudi and all of the elements of the art. All to often practitioners only concentrate on one or two elements of the art, or their do not know the other elements, and miss the connection that all of these play as a combat effective method. Everyone knows the atemi (striking) element and many know the Muto (grappling) element but forget to include the other elements into their training. Nothing wrong with that but it is incomplete. Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

What? Does that ever happen? I've never heard of or witnessed a beginner being expected to spar before they're ready. Never. That's not to say it doesn't happen. I've never known it or heard of it. Is that something that happens in the US? Quite apart from it being morally wrong to ask a new starter to spare before they're ready, it would also be dangerous not just for the new starter, but for the other students. What if the new kid is both completely mental and extremely tough? Are there really instructors out there that would take that risk before getting to know and trust the new starter? Then there's the civil liability. The new person is effectively a guest. Are are there any insurance companies out there that are happy to cover clubs that throw visitors to the wolves? Unfortunately it still happens, but hopefully very, very rarely. That was the norm when my former and current teacher started. It wasn’t the norm, it it was still around when I first started in ‘94. I sparred my first night. Both of them shake their heads and say “yeah, we don’t do that anymore.” Too many hard lessons learned. It’s an extreme example, and highly unlikely the OP will be subjected to it. In fact, I really hesitated to mention it at all. My main point was to watch and see what’s going on before jumping in. What if he works out with them, then realizes they’re a bare knuckle/full contact school? Even if he’s not allowed to spar that night or until he’s genuinely ready, what if he wants no part of that type of sparring? He’s spent the night working out in a dojo he’ll never join. What if he starts working out with them, then they break out into a chi ball no-touch knockout session? There’s an hour of his life he’ll never get back. Another extreme example. My main realistic point is watch what’s going on before you get on the floor. Haha, I am pretty much up for most things, bare knuckle would not bother me at all, a chi ball no knockout session might be a huge turn off though! xD It's described as "Shotokai" which i think is the same as shotokan? I am going Friday and i wondered whether or not i should research about the art some more first? the only experience i have of karate is seeing lyot machida and wonderboy in the ufc also a lot of videos posted to social media platforms the reason i chose karate is because it looks like an awesome style, i'd say possibly the best defensively and in terms of counter attacking, I hope i'd never have to use it and i doubt i ever will but yeah those are my reasons. IMHO the style/name matters very little. If you find a good instructor and you learn then in the end the name means absolutely nothing. Popular styles and household names can be taught by subpar instructors. Forget the name. Shotokai is a recognized art. Find out if the instructor is someone you would like to learn from and take a few lessons to see if it's for you. If the instructor is a good teacher and you like the classes then that is all that matters. It's not like your taking superninjayogafit or some made up gobbly goop like that. Its a spin off of Shotokan. Go and see if you like it. Good luck in your journey. I hope it works out for you.