JR 137

Solid Post. WKF Kata does always seem to look a lot more solid than other tournament kata that I have seen on the internet. Because the only kata that are permitted are kata that are from one of the recognized Ryu-Ha. From my knowledge they only recognize Goju-Ryu, Shito-Ryu, Shotokan and Wado-Ryu Kata, and there is a Kata list that competitors are allowed to select from and perform that kata according to the schools kihon. But from there it does become difficult because there are some styles of karate-do that are distinctly different to one of those four 'major' styles. Look at Kyokushin Karate; they have several distinct versions of Kata that is not similar to one of the major 4, so would they be permitted to perform their styles kata? honest answer I don't know. As far as I'm aware the only thing the WKF have changed over the last 10 or so years that was directly influenced by the IOC was how points were designated. Originally it was Ippon, Nippon & Sanbon (1, 2 & 3 Points), then it got converted to the Judo Terminology for Scoring of Yuko, Waza-Ari and Ippon. But from there they kept the same hand positioning for the referees to denote what the person scored. Also it kept things easy for the judges to indicate with their flags. I'm sure if competitors in kumite tried to do those overtly flashy techniques that other martial arts do in the Olympics, there would be more bouts that would have a 0-0 scoreline over what they have currently. But it is true we all know Tournament Sparring is not really what Kumite is really all about. I know Wastelander's dojo keeps Tournament Sparring to a separate class for those interested. At my dojo we incorporate Tournament Sparring (WKF Rules) for variety, but if we are to do it we have to do other forms of sparring also. WKF has added a distinct Kyokushin kata to the approved list - Garyu. It was developed by Mas Oyama and is his "pen name" (reclining dragon). If they're accepting Garyu, I'd imagine they're accepting Kyokushin's versions of accepted kata as well. Kyokushin's Kanku is changed a decent amount from most others. Some Uechi Ryu kata are now accepted too. Off the top of my head without cross referencing are Kanshin and Kanshu. I'd imagine Uechi's version of Sanchin would have to be accepted by default if other Uechi kata are allowed. I think the WKF had to allow Kyokushin and Uechi kata to get more cooperation. Matsui (the current head of Kyokushin IKO1) reportedly worked alongside the WKF to get karate in the Olympics. And much to the displeasure of every other Kyokushin organization; the others wanted knockdown rules. WKF rules and kata list... http://www.wkf.net/pdf/wkf-competition-rules-version9-2015-en.pdf

Welcome to the forum

Have a Merry Christmas

Seido Juku has about 30,000 active members worldwide, according to a website somewhere. No idea how many are black belts, but I'm sure there's quite a few. I do however know we have... 1 9th dan - our founder Kaicho Tadashi Nakamura 4 8th dans - one of which is Nakamura's son and named successor. All four are the only ones ever promoted to this rank by Nakamura. 5 7th dans - I want to say 6 of them, but I can't think of who the 6th one is. My CI is one of them. 2 or 3 others have held that rank but either passed away or aren't current.

Very well stated. Couldn't agree more.

Welcome to the forum.

Great debate here guys. Sorry, I have nothing of value to add to the conversation. It's very educational.

These decisions are made by endocrinologists and the like who are reknowned experts in their field. The IOC has relatively unlimited resources when it comes to important matters such as this. That's not to say they're perfect and beyond questioning and reproach by any means though. There's a ton of factors in why they choose what they choose as an acceptable range and duration. On the surface it doesn't seem to make much sense, but if we were to sit in on a meeting and hear and understand the thought process, I'm sure it would make sense. I'm quite sure they didn't choose arbitrary amounts. Without scientific validation, I'm quite sure they'd be opening themselves up to severe litigation and lawsuits. And deservingly so.

Hi tubby. I wasn't quite sure what medical condition you were up against until I saw your post on the 2017 goals thread. I can only assume what you're going through is like what I'm going through x 100. Thanks for the inspiration! You hit the nail on the head when you say "Exercise is important to outcomes, mentally and physically." That's what pushes me to train hard, and what's really driving me now. I can't sit around and wait. There's a balance somewhere, and I'm trying to find it. I don't think that balance is sitting and waiting while doing nothing. Getting in the dojo has always made me feel better physically afterward and cleared my head from the day to day stuff. Currently it doesn't; I actually feel worse. I feel worse physically during and more importantly afterward, and the whole time my body tells my brain to stop. I keep telling myself to stop being soft (only I use far more offensive terms) and get through another few minutes. I feel like if I warm up, stretch, go through basics and kata then stop, I'll feel better. Getting my body moving has always made me feel better in the past. Not this time around. I guess I just convinced myself self to wait until after the holidays to try again. Not sure if my brain will listen to my body for that long though.

Liam - I'm in New York. I know it sounds like I'm battling depression too, but not really. Yeah, I'm feeling down, but I'm fine. It's physical at this point, not too psychological. If it gets worse, I'll speak to someone. I'm not a danger to myself nor others. I appreciate your looking out for me.

Thanks for the support everyone. It means a lot to me. My physician and I are confident the we caught it early. Lyme Disease isn't very well understood. It effects people differently. I think most people who have serious long term problems with it are people who weren't diagnosed early enough, but that's just me. A lot of people are misdiagnosed for quite some time. I think that's because there's no truly reliable test. So here's how I got to where I am... Veterans Day weekend (Friday Nov 11) was a tough weekend. We had a difficult time with the kids and our family. Nothing major at all, but it just seemed like non-stop aggravation. I didn't get much sleep either. Monday night after work I was exhausted. I figured the long weekend, lack of sleep, and working 11 hours that day (I do an after school program) caught up with me. I got about 10 hours of sleep that night. Tuesday wasn't much better, although I got plenty of sleep and had a short day at work. I got about 11 hours of sleep that night. On Wednesday I was still dragging. On my way home from work my whole body started aching and I had a low grade fever. I figured I was coming down with a cold, but I didn't have any other symptoms. I felt sick without really being sick. No sinus, chest, throat, etc. stuff. Thursday morning I felt even worse. I had pneumonia whenI was in college, and I felt the exact same way, minus the chest stuff - completely run down, tired, body aches, etc.I left work early and went to see a doctor. I thought it had to be mono. Lyme wasn't on my radar. They did blood work, and on Monday I was given the Lyme diagnosis. Started 3 weeks of antibiotics that day. I feel a lot better today than I did when I started taking antibiotics. But I'm not close to 100% by any means. Some people feel like they're cured after about a week, some feel it for months, and some are anywhere between. There's times during the day where I feel completely fine. Then I'm reminded later. It's a combination of fatigue and just feeling uncomfortable that's getting to me. I don't know how else to describe that feeling of sitting and just not feeling right. I taught pre-k phys ed for 40 minutes this morning. I wasn't too active during it, but I ran around a little. I did 5 push-ups with them, and taught them squat thrusts (aka burpees). I was completely wiped out. It was as fun watching 3 year olds trying to do squat thrusts though Walking back to my classroom, 3 different teachers asked me if I was ok. You can just see it in my face and body language - I'm extremely uncomfortable. I can't pinpoint what it is - no headache, dizziness, etc., just uncomfortable. And that makes me miserable. I was the same way after training for about 20 minutes on Saturday. One of the parents there asked me if I was ok to drive while I was putting my shoes on. My response - "I'm fine, I'm just very uncomfortable." No other way to put it. I'm getting better, but it's really at a snail's pace. I follow up with my doctor after the holidays. When I first started the antibiotics, he said he wants to wait 3-4 weeks after I'm done to retest my blood. Reason being that the antibiotics usually suppress the blood markers enough to make the test worthless for a weeks. If it's still there, it'll be visible after about 4 weeks. Throughout all of this, the only thing that keeps me going physically is caffeine. I've been trying to space out 3-4 cans of soda a day. Once the caffeine wears off is when I really start to drag. Had it not been for caffeine, I'd have no idea how I'd make it through a work day. I'd drink coffee instead, but I can't stand the taste and it's not easily accessible at work. I know I'll get through it, but it's just taking way too long. I know it could be a lot worse, but that's hard to focus on at times. Gotta go teach kindergarten phys ed now. Wish me luck!

I was diagnosed with Lyme Disease about a month ago. No idea when nor how I contracted it. I didn't have the bullseye from the tick bite, nor do I remember ever seeing a tick. Physically, I feel tired and run down. Mentally/emotionally, I'm not a fun person to be around at all. I finished my 3 week course of antibiotics about a week ago, and I honestly don't feel anywhere near 100%. I feel significantly better than when my symptoms started, but that's not saying much. I've been trying to train. My CI and his next in line guy know (along with most others). Tuesday night is one of my usual nights - 45 minute kata class followed by another 45 minutes to an hour of kumite focused class. Saturday is a general class that gets a great workout too. I barely get through kata class. I get through about half hour of general class. I just can't physically get through it. Fatigue sets in. Last Saturday every muscle felt ridiculously tight, then my joints started hurting on top of the fatigue. I know I should take a break. But I can't. I'm tired of being tired. I'm tired of being miserable. The dojo is like therapy for me - when I'm training, the outside world doesn't exist. It's moving meditation. Now that moving meditation is gone. While I'm training, all I can think about is how tired I am and how much my body aches. All I can think about is dragging myself through it and telling myself to stop being soft. I listen to my body, but I hate what it's telling me. I feel like I'm torturing myself by training, yet it's less torture than sitting around and making everyone else miserable with me. In all my years of playing sports and MA training, I've never willingly pulled myself out. I've sat out with a few injuries, but nothing like this. I get through a half hour and have to bow out. I sit down against the wall and watch the rest of class. I feel like I'm being punished. I know, so many people have it so much worse than me. I should be glad I can still train and be happy that I'll most likely make a full recovery soon enough. Honestly, thinking about how so many people have it so much worse than I do doesn't do me any favors; it makes me push harder. The whole situation makes me miserable. The not training aspect is only a small part of it. I don't have the energy to keep up with my daughters who are 3 and 6. I feel like a broken down old man and it breaks my heart to tell them I need a break. I get miserable and take it out on them, which makes me more miserable. Being a school teacher, I'm constantly on my feet walking around the classroom. And I teach pre-k and kindergarten phys ed. By the end of the day I'm exhausted and miserable. Sorry, I had to get that off my chest.

I haven't heard his banning it before. On the surface it sounds like softening it up, but it doesn't mean that was why and if it did indeed soften up the art HE taught. There's allegedly a number of teachers in Okinawa and Okinawans abroad who don't do much free sparring. They do however do very hard contact exchange drills (for lack of a better phrase). Attacker attacks, defender responds using what he/she has been taught. It's not a drill like left hand low block into stance followed by a stepping straight punch with the reverse hand chambered like is typically seen, and criticized for being unrealistic. In the drills I'm referring to, if the defender doesn't defend properly, he/she'll get hit pretty hard. Perhaps Funakoshi thought free sparring turned self defense into dojo fighting that doesn't resemble a true physical altercation. There typically isn't very much if any dancing around, throwing jabs and kicks to set your opponent up for the KO in real fights. A lot of karate dojos allegedly didn't do free sparring. This was a big reason why Oyama started Oyama dojo (later called Kyokushin). Funakoshi certainly wasn't the only one not free sparring if a lot of students were leaving other dojos (including Okinawan dojos) to train in Kyokushin. I'm not making excuses for the way Shotokan, or really anything else, is currently being taught. It's easy to bash Shotokan and accuse Funakoshi of watering it down. It's almost fashionable to do so. Truth is, none of us were there to see it through his development. Every teacher teaches differently, even within an organization. If no free sparring is a problem, it's a teacher problem and not a Shotokan problem IMO. There's plenty of Shotokan dojos doing hard non-tournament sparring.

I'm not an expert on Funakoshi and Shotokan. I've read his autobiography and a few other things by and about him. Everyone has an opinion. What I gather is that he made changes in order to get karate accepted by the Japanese government so it could be taught in the school system. Obviously things needed to be "watered down" for kids, but not for adults. The biggest change was probably the elimination of joint locks, chokes and throws. This IMO was most likely due to making karate a distinctly different art than Judo, which had been accepted by the Japanese government. If Funakoshi was pushing an art that had a lot of these things in it, the government would most likely say karate and judo were too similar and pass on karate being included in the curriculum. That's not to say it wasn't taught outside the school system. Everything changes. With change, there's almost always good and bad. I've read some stuff from Funakoshi's earliest students who became probably the first generation of Shotokan teachers. Teachers who taught at the college level were reportedly very harsh - they did a lot of body conditioning (not cardio, but "toughening up") and full contact sparring. Students typically didn't make it through the first half hour. If they left during the first class, they were never allowed to come back; but they weren't looked down on. If they left after the first class, they weren't allowed back, but they were also ridiculed as they were leaving and later scorned by members of the club. I wish I could remember the source of that information; he is a highly regarded teacher who was talking about back when he started vs how he teaches today. It's changed in a good way. It's not an exclusive club where you have to prove you're tough enough to be included. People get out of it what they put into it. Bringing this full circle, there's dojos out there for everyone the n just about every style. Some retain those harsh training methods, some have zero contact, and everything in between. Karate and martial arts as a whole has softened up a bit. But every dojo is different. There are quite a few Shotokan dojos that are full contact. Compared to all of Shotokan I'd guess they're in the minority, but that doesn't mean they're nonexistent. I'd characterize Japanese Goju I've seen as somewhere between Okinawan Goju and Kyokushin. I'm pretty sure not every single Goju Kai dojo is like that.

To answer your "how do you know" post - visit the dojo and watch a few classes. Watch them spar, watch them do drills, etc. Ask if they compete and how often. Pay attention to the demographics - is it full of kids, college aged students or adults. Are kids training alongside adults constantly. A few visits should tell you enough about the atmosphere of the dojo without even talking to the teacher.

There are no "watered down" Japanese karate styles, only teachers who water it down by emphasizing different aspects IMO. Goju-Kai (Japanese Goju) was started by Gogen Yamaguchi, one of Chojun Miyagi's top students. Yamaguchi brought Goju to mainland Japan, possibly/probably by Miyagi's request. Don't buy into the hype of MMA forums, or honestly any other forum. I hate to say it, but pretty much every MMA forum I've seen bashes all traditional martial arts. They typically respect Kyokushin because it's bare knuckle, but they'll usually say something along the lines of if you HAVE to practice karate, Kyokushin is acceptable. Nonsense. Again, that's not all MMA forums and everyone on them, but if you read enough you'll quickly see a pattern. There's "watered down" everything out there. MMA included. I always give the same advice to people looking into martial arts - don't pick a style, pick a school. No two teachers will teach exactly the same. Even within an organization, there is variation on the atmosphere of dojos. I'm in Seido Juku. The dojo I train at has about 20 or so adults in our mid 30s-late 40s. We train hard. We spar hard. Some take it easier than others due to chronic injuries catching up with them, but we're definitely not tap tap karate. That's why I joined and why I stay. There's dojos in the organization who are full of kids (and adults) doing tournament kata and point fighting. The syllabus is the same, they're tested for black belt ranks by the same person (our founder, Tadashi Nakamura), and are held to the same standards. But the day in and day out emphasis is completely different. Nothing wrong with that, so long as that's what the students are looking for. Keeping that in mind, if I was like the people you referred to in the other forum (not every one of them) and I walked in to one of the "kids" dojos, I'd say Seido Juku is a watered down kids' style. Meanwhile the people at the dojo I go to would shrug their shoulders and keep on keepin' on.

Welcome to the forum

No sure what's available in your neck of the woods. In the States, Rec Specs is pretty much THE sports glasses/goggles... https://adseyewear.com/product/Rec-Specs-Slam-Sports-Glasses/1832

Congratulations!

Which kata(s) are you working on?

I don't think it's strictly a Kyokushin issue. I'd imagine pure sport karate styles where the emphasis is on how kata looks don't do much, if any realistic bunkai. As far as them being hard to remember, everyone's different. I had a very tough time learning/remembering taikyoku 1. After that, most of them were pretty easy to remember. I just looked at it as substituting different movements on the same or similar pattern. Most often the pattern (embussen) is an I or an upside down or right side up T; you may go off at 45 degree angles, but most follow that pattern until you get to black belt level stuff. And even those tend to follow that as well. At least the ones practiced in Kyokushin do. Think about it this way... Taikyoku 1-3 and Pinan 1 &2 - I Pinan 3-5 Upside down T Sanchin - l Gekisai Dai - Upside down T Yantsu- Upside down T Saiha- T Tensho - l Tsuki No - Not sure as I haven't learned it yet, but appears to be an upside down T When I learn a new kata, the first thing I think of is the pattern, then substuting movements within it. I get mixed up now and then by doing movements from a different kata, but everyone does. My CI and I were going through Pinan 2 one night, and after the nukite on the way up the middle, he went right into Pinan 3 by doing the spin and tetsui into kiba dachi. He started laughing after the next 2-3 counts and we started over again. He's a 7th dan with about 45+ years experience. If he's going to make that mistake from time to time, everyone else is too IMO.

I understand where you're coming from, Safroot. Kyokushin's practical use of kata is minimal. Quite a few who left Kyokushin and started their own organizations, such as Ninomiya with Enshin karate, Shigeru Oyama (no relation to Mas Oyama) with Oyama karate, and Ashihara with Ashihara karate did away with just about all the traditional kata, and inserted their own "fighting kata" which comparatively speaking look like shadow kickboxing. Oyama reportedly didn't teach bunkai, and it's evident in his students and their students. Kata was and is performed to teach basics and movement mechanics, and for grading. It's in stark contrast to the people mentioned above. Honestly, there's no wrong nor right way. It depends on your outlook/philosophy of defending yourself/fighting. My only realistic complaint about Seido Juku (my current system) is that bunkai isn't outright taught that I see, especially at kyu levels. Nakamura (our founder, who was one of Oyama's top students) has developed "self defenses" which are broken down in beginner, intermediate, and advanced stages. Funny thing is, when I look at them, I see a ton of stuff from kata. More specifically, kata that we do. The beginner ones not so much, but definitely the intermediate ones (where I am in my training), and the advanced ones that I've seen appear more so. We also do "kihon kumite" that has elements of kata. To the untrained eye, you'd miss it. There's someone who's seen a lot of different bunkai by different people, it's not so subtle. Pretty sure none of that is a coincidence, even though it really isn't discussed as such. I know, I'm side tracking here. If you're really interested in bunkai, the best advice I have is look into Okinawan schools - Goju Ryu, Uechi Ryu, Isshin Ryu, etc. I'm stereotyping here, but I've found the Japanese schools are less bunkai based and more kickboxing-ish compared to Okinawan schools. Without bunkai, kata more or less becomes a glorified dance routine for a lot of people. All IMO. I'm sure many will disagree.

Alan - I'm not going to quote the long multi-quote thing we've been quoting... I'm not saying people should beat each other senseless nor to "within inches of their lives" during training. What I'm saying is there's a time and a place to spar hard. Just as there's a time and a place to go lightly. Maybe it's the former bare knuckle karateka in me. Or the former wrestler in me. I've seen too many people reach relatively high ranks without any real pressure nor hard contact during training. People start to realize what really works for them and what doesn't when they've got someone throwing strikes with some intent behind them (not killing intent, but enough intent to make the person really have to move). I've seen people throw these pretty kicks and punches at the air and at sparring partners have their form to completely out the window when they've got to hit a heavy bag or shield with power. There was a guy who joined my previous dojo who was a 2nd dan in another karate system before relocating and joining our dojo. He was great until someone hit him. And it genuinely wasn't that hard of a hit, it was just well placed and timed. All his previous training seemed non-existent. After a few months of some giving and receiving some decent contact, it finally clicked for him. And none of this was out for blood nor cage match level contact. But it certainly wasn't tap tap fighting like a lot of dojo warriors are used to either. There's absolutely nothing wrong with light to no-contact MA IMO. The caveat is that the person is fully aware that that's not in any way shape or form to be considered self defense. Rather they must be aware that's its glorified cardio kickboxing in pajamas with some foreign language stuff and traditions mixed in. All IMO.

It seems to be a universal word in Kyokushin and offshoot dojos. May the Osu be with you.

My teacher nor his teacher have a military background that I know of. Kyokushin and its offshoots (Seido Juku falls under this) have this tradition in them. Perhaps Mas Oyama's military experience?